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Is CPF a PONZI SCHEME?

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Old 22-02-2012, 02:52 PM   #31
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Well, Temasek and GIC suck in investing.
The gov should let each individual singaporean do his/her investment.

How well can Singaporeans invest?

Year 2011
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 45%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 38%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 17%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...Report2011.pdf



Year 2010
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 49%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 37%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 14%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...Report2010.pdf

Year 2009
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 52%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 35%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 13%
http://www.cpf.org.sg/NR/rdonlyres/E...Report2009.pdf

Year 2008
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 49%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 31%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 20%
http://www.cpf.org.sg/NR/rdonlyres/6...eportDec08.pdf

Year 2007
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 43%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 29%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 28%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...E_reportpl.pdf

Last edited by yeokiwi; 22-02-2012 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 22-02-2012, 03:03 PM   #32
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Im lazy to read but I feel every where , every gov in every countries work like this ~

"They" the powerful rich finanical elites lay down this system which EVERYONE must follow ~

you have to trace back histories of why there are currency ~
who are rothschild families ~

blah blah blah ~
nah it cant stand. then how u explain paper currencies turning up earlier in china? that the rothschilds or the wadever elites are actually ah tiongs?

sometimes angmohs spin doctors are so ignorant and lame.
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Old 22-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #33
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nah it cant stand. then how u explain paper currencies turning up earlier in china? that the rothschilds or the wadever elites are actually ah tiongs?

sometimes angmohs spin doctors are so ignorant and lame.
The current financial system is based on rot-child. Of course, the Chinese made use of paper currencies during the Sung dynasty.. I think.
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Old 22-02-2012, 03:43 PM   #34
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Well, Temasek and GIC suck in investing.
The gov should let each individual singaporean do his/her investment.

How well can Singaporeans invest?

Year 2011
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 45%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 38%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 17%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...Report2011.pdf



Year 2010
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 49%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 37%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 14%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...Report2010.pdf

Year 2009
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 52%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 35%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 13%
http://www.cpf.org.sg/NR/rdonlyres/E...Report2009.pdf

Year 2008
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 49%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 31%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 20%
http://www.cpf.org.sg/NR/rdonlyres/6...eportDec08.pdf

Year 2007
Members with losses (less than 0% return) 43%
Members with gains (less than 2.5% return) 29%
Members with gains (> 2.5% return) 28%
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres...E_reportpl.pdf
Yup if only i had more prior to 2007 to invest.

Net gain at 2007 was at 350%



2008 - 2011 not as good though 10-12%
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Old 22-02-2012, 04:29 PM   #35
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I believe the answer is both yes and no
It is not a ponzi scheme outright but it works like a ponzi scheme because the fresh funds contributed from the working community will be paid out to the withdrawing community. This is because their investments are usually quite long term and it is impossible to en-cash that investment just to raise the funds to pay out to every individual retiree.

However, we can only speculate at what CPF does with our money... they do not offer transparency with their operation...
one typical tell-tale sign of a ponzi scheme is promised high returns within a relative short period, which obviously not in line with major savings schemes like banks, CPF, social security etc, or even govt bonds.

long term investments etc, the interests is for the risk factor and inflation. so no, CPF doesnt work like a ponzi scheme.
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Old 22-02-2012, 05:14 PM   #36
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I'm 29 now.

I wonder if I will have to live to age 95 and beyond before I see my CPF money the way the rules keep changing every 2-3 years or so.
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Old 22-02-2012, 05:41 PM   #37
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I'm 29 now.

I wonder if I will have to live to age 95 and beyond before I see my CPF money the way the rules keep changing every 2-3 years or so.
no need to live to 29.

just take it as Tax that can be used for Housing / Medical Subsidy.
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Old 22-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #38
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I'm 29 now.

I wonder if I will have to live to age 95 and beyond before I see my CPF money the way the rules keep changing every 2-3 years or so.
dun blow out of proportion lah, if u really desperate just denouce citizenship and u will see every cent of it.
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Old 23-02-2012, 12:44 AM   #39
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All their money is invested in SG Government Bonds that are guaranteed by the SG Government using the Nation's Reserves. Currently the SG reserves > CPF amount.

http://app.mof.gov.sg/data/cmsresour...20Overview.pdf
Singapore gets a very good credit rating internationally because it does not have any external debt. All debts are internal... SG govt borrows money from our own people. CPF lends money to govt and gets a guaranteed return.

Now what does the govt do with all these monies that form our reserve? Let me guess.... Managed by GIC and Temasek of course! Its not hard to do the sum 1+1 = 2.... however, CPF insists that our money is never handed directly to GIC or Temasek for investment... which is true in a sense. This is what I mean by the lack of transparency.....
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Old 23-02-2012, 01:05 AM   #40
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one typical tell-tale sign of a ponzi scheme is promised high returns within a relative short period, which obviously not in line with major savings schemes like banks, CPF, social security etc, or even govt bonds.

long term investments etc, the interests is for the risk factor and inflation. so no, CPF doesnt work like a ponzi scheme.
when MLM first appeared, they claim its perfectly legal too,
that it is not a pyramid scheme because there is a product involved

you see, these people are very smart are tweaking the formula to disguise their intent
you are right, CPF is not a ponzi scheme based on the definitions you gave but what if they tweaked the formula somewhat? "promised high returns within a relative short period" will surely be uncovered quickly since such deception is not sustainable for long.

CPF's rates of 2.5% and 4% are quite high considering bank deposits only give 0.05% and bonds give roughly 1% only? If we were to find out, it will only be decades later...... and they kept increasing the retirement age + increasing minimum sum + CPF life annuity which is raising some suspicion don't you think so?
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Old 23-02-2012, 02:28 AM   #41
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when MLM first appeared, they claim its perfectly legal too,
that it is not a pyramid scheme because there is a product involved

you see, these people are very smart are tweaking the formula to disguise their intent
you are right, CPF is not a ponzi scheme based on the definitions you gave but what if they tweaked the formula somewhat? "promised high returns within a relative short period" will surely be uncovered quickly since such deception is not sustainable for long.

CPF's rates of 2.5% and 4% are quite high considering bank deposits only give 0.05% and bonds give roughly 1% only? If we were to find out, it will only be decades later...... and they kept increasing the retirement age + increasing minimum sum + CPF life annuity which is raising some suspicion don't you think so?
using ponzi scheme or legality doesnt prove anything. CPF isnt related to these in anyway. on a side note, when they ever tweak CPF then it's no longer CPF.

see, u are using a big IF to base ur arguments. like IF i strike toto 1st prize tomorrow. it's not gonna stick.

plz, how can u say CPF rates are high? bank interests rates has been like 3-5% in the 80s-90s. guess u werent born early enuff for that. when we say high returns it usually means snow-balling, not something like 20yrs to double.

CPF started in 1955, u cant be using the rates now to compare. besides, i think CPF rates is more or less the same as insurance. u arent calling insurance plans a ponzi scheme are u?
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Old 23-02-2012, 02:56 AM   #42
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to me 2.5 - 4 is beri attractive liao wor. can combat normal inflation. normal 1 not the artificial 1. insurance rates can be high becos they do investment also ma. some even got speculation 1. this is just my view. those snowballing 1 risk appetite must be like king kong or it must be a scam.

what i think the most important to me is they really have $$. Big big banks in us also thought to be got $$, Greece also is developed country looks to have got $$ but all inside empty 1. credit rating agency also give double A to lehmen bro a few days b4 it collapse. No 1 can really know, like pap use to say need 58 man years to know how much is in CPF.
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Old 23-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #43
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that is the point mah. CPF must at least battle inflation mah, if not where got incentives to join? if cannot battle inflation, govt sure tio kaopeh cos savings shrunk mah.

i wouldnt even call that attractive cos it's just a bit better than stagnant and i probably can get better returns putting the money into other things (that is IF i dun make the wrong investments). calling that a ponzi is way off the mark.
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Old 23-02-2012, 10:34 AM   #44
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that is the point mah. CPF must at least battle inflation mah, if not where got incentives to join? if cannot battle inflation, govt sure tio kaopeh cos savings shrunk mah.

i wouldnt even call that attractive cos it's just a bit better than stagnant and i probably can get better returns putting the money into other things (that is IF i dun make the wrong investments). calling that a ponzi is way off the mark.
Dunno, I prefer to take it out, 2.5% be damned. I prefer liquidity any time...........
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Old 23-02-2012, 01:22 PM   #45
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i wouldnt even call that attractive cos it's just a bit better than stagnant and i probably can get better returns putting the money into other things .
The issue with better returns is only for pple who are investment savvy. Those who are not will constantly lose out to inflation. That brings another topic which many have proposed, allow those who choose to, to take out and manage their own money.

It is not going to work coz given the choice between parking your money into CPF or taking it out, most would choose the latter and I am pretty certain the vast majority will not know how to handle that money. What happens then?

These pple who mismanaged their money, you can't leave them alone, the state is still expected to take care of them. We can't just let them die. Someone already mentioned earlier it happened during the earlier days of the CPF withdrawal where pple get a lump sum and spend it all. The burden is then left to the rest of the tax payers to support them.

The current system allows for those who have enough to get a lump sum upfront and still get a monthly payout after. Rising minimum sum is something we need to leave with as it has to adjust for inflation.

I think the current system works just fine. My only problem with it is the withdrawal age. 65 is too high. They should be more flexible and allow those that have reach 60 to choose retirement when they have enough money in the bank or choose to withdraw a lower monthly amt
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