Retirement vs Wealthbuilder ?

nethdale

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1. pay until old, then receive annuties + lump OR lumpsum at retirement age

2. pay single premium or regular premium for certain number of years. option to take out certain/full amount or leave it inside until needed. longer u leave, the more cash u hv.

3. pay 20 or 25 yrs with coverage. only lumpsum pay out on the yr of policy matures.

4. coverage + savings until u happy then surrender

Hi,

Pardon my ignorance, with regards to No 1 and 2, assuming a male 50 years old, what would the general regular premium be if I wish to withdraw 1 lump sum at 70. However, I not sure what figure to give for this lump sum. Just wish hope to know the regular premium is not scary. Can give an illustration?

Thanks in advance.
 

Lewis.T

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Hi,

Pardon my ignorance, with regards to No 1 and 2, assuming a male 50 years old, what would the general regular premium be if I wish to withdraw 1 lump sum at 70. However, I not sure what figure to give for this lump sum. Just wish hope to know the regular premium is not scary. Can give an illustration?

Thanks in advance.

Usually around 300-500/mth minimum, I believe we can go as low as around $50/mth too.

Yield at the end of the 10th year might be about 15-25% of your premiums paid assuming regular monthly premium.
 

Lewis.T

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1. pay until old, then receive annuties + lump OR lumpsum at retirement age

2. pay single premium or regular premium for certain number of years. option to take out certain/full amount or leave it inside until needed. longer u leave, the more cash u hv.

3. pay 20 or 25 yrs with coverage. only lumpsum pay out on the yr of policy matures.

4. coverage + savings until u happy then surrender

If I have cpf contributions and will be enrolled in CPF Life, I would go for a wealthbuilder type of plan as it gives me the flexibility I need.

I probably wouldn't want to supplement my annuity with another annuity. Not sure about you.
 

wts2013

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Risk Assessment/Management Exercise Part 1:

Do you own HDB flat? Still paying mortgage using CPF?

Starting a family, u have cash or funds set aside for this purpose?

You have term insurance, how much is the premium? Need to pay until 65, how do u plan to pay the premiums till 65? Continue to work till 65? Or use your retirement funds?

You have whole life insurance, paid up by 55, so u should be covered sufficiently for tpd/ci during retirement years, together with H&S cover, your retirement funds should be protected (until ? when your whole life matures?)

Your investments now -5%. How do u invest? Using POSB invest saver? DCA into STI ETF/Bonds?

POSB Invest saver is regular savings plan invested into STI ETF for eg. Investment into STI ETF using POSB invest saver is a long term investment savings plan, over 20-30 years before u can see results. So u should only use money u dun need over this period of time. If u have read the debate in WL vs BTIR, u would have read how such investment performed over the 20 year period, and the results/returns depends very much when u started (bull peak or bear bottom) and cashout your investment (bull peak or bear bottom).

Read 2 sample posts: someone invested 2 years ago, now -ve return (bull top at start now start of bear market )

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100556817-post1174.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100502353-post1157.html

U are only less than 1 year into this investment and u want to cash out a portion to invest in another capital protected fund. U will lose some money? So think carefully, once u cash out, whatever is invested into ETF/bonds should be money u dun need over 20-30 years. Do your risk assessment/management, make sure u have another sources of liquid funds to meet your life changes and insurance premiums, etc, some of which are listed above.

(Your investment into STI ETF can perform better if u know how to invest more intelligently)
 
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Perisher

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For the same amount of premium one would probably pay finish the term life way before 55 while one would still be paying for wholelife to 55...

Buying at the top would result in a negative return in the short term. In the long run, it would outperform most WL plan bar maybe one or two?
One has to be 'lucky/do research' in the sense in picking the right WL plan or it won't even keep up with inflation. Not to mention that ETF is paying 3%+p.a. dividends on a half yearly basis.

That's the short history of WL vs ETF(locally).
Vs the longer term US ETF, most if not all WL fare much worse.

Here's a thread to read about early termination on WL policy and other discussion.
http://singaporeanstocksinvestor.blogspot.sg/2014/09/seniors-could-consider-terminating.html

I just realise wealthbuilder is a form of ILP?

Just in case, wts2013 is only talking about specific WL policy, not most WL policy. So technically, WL generally fare worse than ETF.
 

makav31i

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For the same amount of premium one would probably pay finish the term life way before 55 while one would still be paying for wholelife to 55...

Buying at the top would result in a negative return in the short term. In the long run, it would outperform most WL plan bar maybe one or two?
One has to be 'lucky/do research' in the sense in picking the right WL plan or it won't even keep up with inflation. Not to mention that ETF is paying 3%+p.a. dividends on a half yearly basis.

That's the short history of WL vs ETF(locally).
Vs the longer term US ETF, most if not all WL fare much worse.

Here's a thread to read about early termination on WL policy and other discussion.
http://singaporeanstocksinvestor.blogspot.sg/2014/09/seniors-could-consider-terminating.html

I just realise wealthbuilder is a form of ILP?

Just in case, wts2013 is only talking about specific WL policy, not most WL policy. So technically, WL generally fare worse than ETF.

And we are back to discussing insurace again..
 

Perisher

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And we are back to discussing insurace again..

TS wanted to discuss about insurance to begin with.

If you mean the term vs WL part which isn't what TS wanted...
The one comparing is wts2013 so you quoted the wrong person?

My part is just to clarify things wts2013 said.

Either way, it's their way to plan for retirement.
 

Perisher

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In case we go too far off grid, here's something an agent told me which I plan to start a thread on.

ILPs make up about 3 archetype of plans,

1) Protection type ILP. This one is the killer, with monthly fees of $5+, killing off lower amounts of regular premiums. Mortality charges also increases with age, eating away at whatever returns you have remaining. Your premium allocation during the first few years are also abysmal. Avoid at all costs. Often mis-sold as a protection + investment plan when really it should just be protection plan.

2) Accumulation/growth type ILP. This one somewhere in between, they give you a higher premium crediting rate and all of your premiums are invested from day 1, but you are still locked in over a longer period of time or you'll receive a surrender penalty.

3) The one I just linked, ease of access to your funds and minimal charge of 3% inclusive of bid-offer spread. No surrender penalty, no monthly fees.

AIA Wealthbuilder belongs to the 3rd category.
 

makav31i

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TS wanted to discuss about insurance to begin with.

If you mean the term vs WL part which isn't what TS wanted...
The one comparing is wts2013 so you quoted the wrong person?

My part is just to clarify things wts2013 said.

Either way, it's their way to plan for retirement.

TA asked for retirement planning vs wealthbuilder, which is your choice not about insurance...Please read again that TS already stated that he already had adequate insurance coverage...

wts2013 posted this...
 

makav31i

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TS wanted to discuss about insurance to begin with.

If you mean the term vs WL part which isn't what TS wanted...
The one comparing is wts2013 so you quoted the wrong person?

My part is just to clarify things wts2013 said.

Either way, it's their way to plan for retirement.

TS asked for retirement planning vs wealthbuilder, which is your choice not about insurance...Please read again that TS already stated that he already had adequate insurance coverage...

wts2013 posted this...

Risk Assessment/Management Exercise Part 1:

Do you own HDB flat? Still paying mortgage using CPF?

Starting a family, u have cash or funds set aside for this purpose?

You have term insurance, how much is the premium? Need to pay until 65, how do u plan to pay the premiums till 65? Continue to work till 65? Or use your retirement funds?

You have whole life insurance, paid up by 55, so u should be covered sufficiently for tpd/ci during retirement years, together with H&S cover, your retirement funds should be protected (until ? when your whole life matures?)

Your investments now -5%. How do u invest? Using POSB invest saver? DCA into STI ETF/Bonds?

POSB Invest saver is regular savings plan invested into STI ETF for eg. Investment into STI ETF using POSB invest saver is a long term investment savings plan, over 20-30 years before u can see results. So u should only use money u dun need over this period of time. If u have read the debate in WL vs BTIR, u would have read how such investment performed over the 20 year period, and the results/returns depends very much when u started (bull peak or bear bottom) and cashout your investment (bull peak or bear bottom).

Read 2 sample posts: someone invested 2 years ago, now -ve return (bull top at start now start of bear market )

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100556817-post1174.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100502353-post1157.html

U are only less than 1 year into this investment and u want to cash out a portion to invest in another capital protected fund. U will lose some money? So think carefully, once u cash out, whatever is invested into ETF/bonds should be money u dun need over 20-30 years. Do your risk assessment/management, make sure u have another sources of liquid funds to meet your life changes and insurance premiums, etc, some of which are listed above.

(Your investment into STI ETF can perform better if u know how to invest more intelligently)

He just asked how much coverage TS have and how he invested his money and etc, you are the only one here who started talking about Term Premium vs WholeLife which is totally irrelevant and off topic...

See what you posted...

For the same amount of premium one would probably pay finish the term life way before 55 while one would still be paying for wholelife to 55...

Buying at the top would result in a negative return in the short term. In the long run, it would outperform most WL plan bar maybe one or two?
One has to be 'lucky/do research' in the sense in picking the right WL plan or it won't even keep up with inflation. Not to mention that ETF is paying 3%+p.a. dividends on a half yearly basis.

That's the short history of WL vs ETF(locally).
Vs the longer term US ETF, most if not all WL fare much worse.

Here's a thread to read about early termination on WL policy and other discussion.
http://singaporeanstocksinvestor.blogspot.sg/2014/09/seniors-could-consider-terminating.html

I just realise wealthbuilder is a form of ILP?

Just in case, wts2013 is only talking about specific WL policy, not most WL policy. So technically, WL generally fare worse than ETF.

So who is starting to go off topic...?You brought the premium issue into question...
 
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Lewis.T

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1. pay until old, then receive annuties + lump OR lumpsum at retirement age

2. pay single premium or regular premium for certain number of years. option to take out certain/full amount or leave it inside until needed. longer u leave, the more cash u hv.

3. pay 20 or 25 yrs with coverage. only lumpsum pay out on the yr of policy matures.

4. coverage + savings until u happy then surrender
Wealthbuilder pay for 20 yrs, afterwhich can take out anytime, or leave it until retirement for interest to "roll", more flexibility.

I think TS definition of wealthbuilder isn't talking about a single plan, just plans that do #2, which can include endowments. Also the fact that he does his own investment makes me think he's not talking about ILPs.
 
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wts2013

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TS wanted to discuss about insurance to begin with.

If you mean the term vs WL part which isn't what TS wanted...
The one comparing is wts2013 so you quoted the wrong person?

My part is just to clarify things wts2013 said.

Either way, it's their way to plan for retirement.

Dun feed the troll! U obviously have very bad reading and comprehension skills! Which para of my post did I compare WL with BTIR?

I merely direct TS to the thread where he can find a real life case study of how POSB Invest Saver invested into STI ETF performed over a 20 year period, using real data to simulate the investment. Sharing with TS the considerations, pros and cons of this approach.

You are only here to preach what u dun practice! First u preach so much about BTIR, but u posted in this forum that u dun practice!

Now u preach so much about POSB Invest Saver or other DCA methods into STI ETF. Do you practice what u preach? When did u start DCA into STI ETF, and how is your portfolio performing now? How much cash are u holding vs how much invested in stocks now? I bet u are mostly in cash now!

U talk so much about theory, hype, stats, by right, if then else! Dun practice what u preach!

Here I'm sharing experiences, knowledge (assumptions, considerations, pros and cons)!

One smart investor/trainer already changed his approach, no more “blind” DCA but invest more intelligently, aren't u outdated with what u preach, helping banks/brokers to market their “system” to increase their commission?

Pls delete all your irrelevant posts/comments, move them to your new thread u want to start on ILP! :s13::s13::s13:

Oops forgot to add : All your posts/comments show u dun understand the key differences in features/benefits of the 4 different types of insurance (whole life participating, term, ILP, endowment) vs retirement vs wealthbuilder! Why u link to Ak blog, cannot explain what is the risk of early termination of WL yourself? That link is irrelevant hor :s13::s13::s13:
 
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Perisher

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wts2013 posted this...

He just asked how much coverage TS have and how he invested his money and etc, you are the only one here who started talking about Term Premium vs WholeLife which is totally irrelevant and off topic...

See what you posted...

So who is starting to go off topic...?You brought the premium issue into question...

You have term insurance, how much is the premium? Need to pay until 65, how do u plan to pay the premiums till 65? Continue to work till 65? Or use your retirement funds?

You have whole life insurance, paid up by 55, so u should be covered sufficiently for tpd/ci during retirement years, together with H&S cover, your retirement funds should be protected (until ? when your whole life matures?)

Here you go, the premium issues wts2013 raised using a term and then a whole life. If you can't see that he is comparing by putting them one after the other, and stating the same thing, how to pay the premium blah blah blah... :s22:

and the rest of my replies follows the same pattern just clarifying what wts2013 said, not going off and discussing other things.
 

wts2013

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Here you go, the premium issues wts2013 raised using a term and then a whole life. If you can't see that he is comparing by putting them one after the other, and stating the same thing, how to pay the premium blah blah blah... :s22:

and the rest of my replies follows the same pattern just clarifying what wts2013 said, not going off and discussing other things.

U can't see the forest for the trees!

These are based on what TS owns, highlighting the risks/benefits he will face when he retires, some considerations in his retirement planning lor.

U mean if I post one on top, and the other far away below, then u are ok? :s13::s13::s13:
 
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Perisher

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U can't see the forest for the trees!

These are based on what TS owns, highlighting the risks/benefits he will face when he retires, some considerations in his retirement planning lor.

U mean if I post one on top, and the other far away below, then u are ok? :s13::s13::s13:

I get what you are trying to say but

For someone 30 who has WL, adequate term coverage and hosp plan in place, what is the better option nxt? Retirement planning?

What about H&S? Why only talk about term and WL premium?

Also, I agree TS is asking about retirement planning, not insurance. My bad for missing that as I was thinking term/WL/H&S/retirement planning/investment are all part of insurance.

Anyway, as I said, I'm only clarifying, not doing a purely what vs what.
 
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wts2013

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What about H&S? Why only talk about term and WL premium?

I did talk about H&S, since it is a must and premiums are paid using CPF, no need mention or concern. I'm not concerned over the paying of premiums even tho part of it is paid using cash for my rider, and I earn it back via CPF as well.

I dun want to discuss CPF yet, but we will surely come to this topic. :s13::s13::s13:
 

Perisher

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I did talk about H&S, since it is a must and premiums are paid using CPF, no need mention or concern. I'm not concerned over the paying of premiums even tho part of it is paid using cash for my rider, and I earn it back via CPF as well.

I dun want to discuss CPF yet, but we will surely come to this topic. :s13::s13::s13:

You did?

Ok,
 

hogrider88

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hi thanks for all inputs. feel free to include any forms of retirement planning even the thread topic as wealthbuilder vs retirement. people may highlight some things that i did not consider of, for eg. transferring OA to SA kind of thing.

Risk Assessment/Management Exercise Part 1:
Do you own HDB flat? Still paying mortgage using CPF?

i just moved in a BTO for 2years plus. i stretch the loan to maximum 30 years, which i am still considering whether it is a wise choice. but at least i can shorten it if i take max, but i cannot lengthen the loan duration if i took shorter from the start.

shd we discuss this in a new thread ? or has this been discussed before?


Starting a family, u have cash or funds set aside for this purpose?

i hv 30k liquid uninvested cash nia on top of emergency funds, set aside for this. i dont know how much to expect actually.


You have term insurance, how much is the premium? Need to pay until 65, how do u plan to pay the premiums till 65? Continue to work till 65? Or use your retirement funds?

$120 monthly. good question. i intend to work lor. if i am lucky enough to retire earlier, well yes retirement fund is the way to go.


You have whole life insurance, paid up by 55, so u should be covered sufficiently for tpd/ci during retirement years, together with H&S cover, your retirement funds should be protected (until ? when your whole life matures?)

i intend to keep this whole life until i die, if my retirement funds can feed me.


Your investments now -5%. How do u invest? Using POSB invest saver? DCA into STI ETF/Bonds?

POSB Invest saver is regular savings plan invested into STI ETF for eg. Investment into STI ETF using POSB invest saver is a long term investment savings plan, over 20-30 years before u can see results. So u should only use money u dun need over this period of time. If u have read the debate in WL vs BTIR, u would have read how such investment performed over the 20 year period, and the results/returns depends very much when u started (bull peak or bear bottom) and cashout your investment (bull peak or bear bottom).

Read 2 sample posts: someone invested 2 years ago, now -ve return (bull top at start now start of bear market )

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100556817-post1174.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/100502353-post1157.html

i started off using posb invest saver DCA into STI ETF & ABF Bonds because i was working in trading firm, who dont allow us to open any other trading account (such as SCB).

when i left, i opened SCB and halted my POSB RSP STI and did exactly like the guy in the second post did. i leave my bond to POSB RSP because 0.5% sales charge is negligible considering that there is no sell transaction cost.

to be honest, i dont stick to DCA plan as systematically as POSB RSP. my core portfolio is still IWDA/STI/ABF now, but i buy fix number of shares and I stockpick reits and some other counters (singpost, keppel trust, silverlake etc), but also for long term mindset.


U are only less than 1 year into this investment and u want to cash out a portion to invest in another capital protected fund. U will lose some money? So think carefully, once u cash out, whatever is invested into ETF/bonds should be money u dun need over 20-30 years. Do your risk assessment/management, make sure u have another sources of liquid funds to meet your life changes and insurance premiums, etc, some of which are listed above.

(Your investment into STI ETF can perform better if u know how to invest more intelligently)

i dont intend to cashout my investment at all. but merely diversify a portion of my monthly stock/bond investment budget, to something else. u r right about bringing up abt how to pay these premiums if i lose my job though. emergency funds?

investing sti more intelligently? timing the market?
 

life_is_great

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For someone 30 who has WL, adequate term coverage and hosp plan in place, what is the better option nxt? Retirement planning?

I invest in the stock market long term but i think it is also gd to set aside something "safe" for retirement, on top of investments.

From what i know, retirement hv to pay until 55/60/65 then can receive annuities.. Usually guaranteed abt 2% or less.. Non-guaranteed up to 4%

Wealthbuilder pay for 20 yrs, afterwhich can take out anytime, or leave it until retirement for interest to "roll", more flexibility.

I do not think endowment is a gd plan compare to above as i think alot of fees r paid twds the " coverage" portion?

What is ur choice??

Retirement plans dont have to pay till 55/60/65.. You have the choice to do lump sum payment, 5 year, 10 years or 20 years payment.. or pay till some where close to the retirement age. There are a few retirement plans that have 2.5% guaranteed returns.

As for endowment plans, as for your views on the 'coverage' portion. Always always always buy endowment plans that are GIO (guaranteed insurability option) this is so that there are no charges for the death benefit as the death benefit is always 101% of premiums paid.

What should you get? I guess its up to you. Nowadays more and more people like to get a limited pay retirement plan. Let me know if you want to find out more about retirement plans that are available in the market and I'll be happy to share more.
 
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