Maybe next time when I go to the library, I would try to get one of his books again post some of his ideas here for you people to judge lor. Not sure if he is a hypocrite/actor or not, but I personally feel that he is quite sincere about what he wrote lor.
As promised, hehe.
(Extracted from "Freedom in Exile--The autobiography of the Dalai Lama", pg 269)
Quote:
..For as a Buddist monk, my concern extends to all members of the human family and, indeed, to all suffering sentient beings.
I believe that this suffering is caused by ignorance, and that people inflict pain on others in pursuit of their own happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through cultivation of altruism, of love, of compassion, and through the elimination of anger, selfishness and greed.
To some people this may sound naive, but I would remind them that, no matter what part of the world we come from, fundamentally we are all the same human beings. We all seek happiness and try to avoid suffering. We have the same basic needs and concerns. Furthermore, all of us human beings want freedom and the right to determine our own destiny as individuals. That is human nature. The great changes taking place everywhere in the world, from Eastern Europe to Africa, are a clear indication of this.
At the same time, the problems we face today - violent conflicts, destruction of nature, poverty, hunger, and so on - are mainly problems created by humans. They can be resolved - but only through human effort, understanding and the development of a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. To do this, we need to cultivate a universal responsibility for one another and for the planet we share, based on a good heart and awareness.
Now although I have found my own Buddhist religion helpful in generating love and compassion, I am convinced that these qualities can be developed by anyone, with or without religion. I further believe that all religions pursue the same goals: those of cultivating goodness and bringing happiness to all human beings. Though the means might appear different, the ends are the same...
Not really. Truth. And since you love history so much, history does prove that I what I said is right, does it not?
Quote:
wrong again. indians got better natural geography and climate compared to the tibetans, at least they got 3x more arable land per capita comepare to chinese in general. given a good system they could prosper. tibet? try explaining? even when chinese dont have 'basic human rights'(ur version) in ancient hina, the are still 'freeman' (of their time) compared to tibetans of the same era, or even tibetan after WW2.maybe u can try to argue that slavery is a better system than feudal or centralise govt? i'll like to see that. and the same thing as india, china has very very good geography and climate compared to tibet. they mainatained 20-25% of global population thruout history, and was the most powerful global economy for 2000 yrs b4 indutrialisation. what is tibet in comparison?
Tibet is a tourist destination and even now, most of it's economy is based on that. Tibet is also rich in Chromite, Copper, Lithium, boron, magnetite, Barite and Arsenic. In fact, they supply the most chromite in China as well as lithium (one of the highest in the world). They are rank 2nd in supply of Copper in China.
So, let me get you straight, you are now saying that only the rich or rich endowed or big countries can be independent or control their own destiny and that they also have to right to control others? Anyway the common people in China and Indian were virtual slaves to their masters as well, what's the difference whether you call it Feudal or slavery?
After WW2, Mao virtually enslaved millions of his own people during the cultural revolution. Weren't these people that died treated worst than slaves? It does not mean that they can't change and their system of governance cannot change either.
Quote:
see, learning a bit of history sure do u some good.
History is important, but common sense and an understanding of human nature trumps it. You should stick to what you know - reading history and leave the current affairs to people who can think out of the book.
Quote:
if the brits can rule sg better, why not? if the brits treated sg better than homeland angmohs, why not? care tell us the reason of our independence? becos the brits were treating us better? learn ur own sg history lah. and again u are using wrong analogies like coolies, cos u refuse to admit that the tibetans are being treated properly. care to tell where in china was a single tibetan kena forced to work as a coolie, or stuck being a coolie? or doing any similiar job as a coolie?
So you are saying that if the brits treat Singaporeans better than their own people, they should rule Singapore and Singaporeans should not have self-rule? Again, there is something very very wrong here.
You know why I say that cannot be true? Nobody treats other people better than they treat their own, simply because it is against human nature. There is always something behind it all.
Quote:
the chinese are in tibet cos tibetan always gave up their sovereignty for whatever reasons in the past centuries. see, there was hardly ever a 'invade tibet' war in chinese history except in tang dynasty, which is 13 centuries ago, in case u dun know that history. if they accept chinese to rule them all the while, what can u say?
If they accept Chinese rule all the while, I have nothing to say. Of course, the key word is "IF". I am pretty sure that the Tibetians would rather rule themselves than having foreigners rule them, no matter how sugar coated your history books tell you. In fact, common sense tells me, if they have a choice, they would rather rule themselves.
Quote:
yah right, how far from the truth? care to illustrate? and how come u know about all these 'imprisonment' and 'massacres' if u dont hear ppl talk about it? speculation? and how come i can describe the bad things in china and even show u news link on the web? pls wake up, no govt can hide wrong-doings for long in this infomation age. everything will be exposed sooner and later.
In China, you can hide things from the press. Not only hide things from the press, the Chinese govt controls the press there. Other foreign press are tightly controlled and regulated. Am I making this up? Don't think so. If they are not hiding anything, why do all these things? It is not like they have anything to fear right?
Seriously, if it is very far from the truth, then the Chinese have no worry about this. It is not like the Tibetians will rebel if the Chinese treats them very well. The Dalai Lama will not pose any threat to the Chinese at all. He is not like being supported by anyone in Tibet since every Tibetians love the Chinese and abuses them. And it is not like the West will send troops in to "liberate" the Tibetians anytime soon. Furthermore, the Western media is for the West and will not affect the Chinese at all. And most importantly you will not be here defending the Chinese (I am assuming that you are a Singaporean here, correct me if I am wrong) since you have no part in Chinese politics.
Quote:
sorry, there is nothing happy seeing parasites living off govt subsidies. as far as i see, if the tibetans dont work on something more realistic, they are going to lose their grip soon. in one or 2 generations, they'll be totally relying on the chinese govt. i can bet with u 20 yrs from now, majority of tibetans wont want to go independence. animials kept in zoos cannot survive in the wild. simple as that.
Agreed. Of course, you blame it on the evil Western media for making the Chinese do all these. I wonder if the evil Western media is so powerful and overwhelming, what else is the Chinese politicans doing for their masters, the Western media?
Quote:
just to show u that u didnt know ur chinese ancestors got passports and IDs. nothing much really.
Thanks for nothing. Showing off is for 3 year olds.
Quote:
too bad, the tibetans seems happy about it, as part of my observation.
Hey, if the Tibetians are happy, I have no problems. Seriously.
Quote:
well it goes on to show that u lack common sense or simply nitpicking unnecessarily. if they are not chinese citizens, how come they hold chinese IDs and passport? or the other way round, if they have chinese IDs and passports, how can they not be chinese citizens in the first place? no matter how u and i phrase it, the criteria for bearing chinese IDs and passport is that they are first chinese citizens. and how come dalai need central govt to appoint him as dalai? why not he show his determination of independence by denouncing the title given to him by chinese govt? oh, cant bear to part with the shiny halo?
Aiya, you misunderstood me.
If the title of the Dalai gives his more status and power, of course he would not denounce the title. Anyway, it is not the "Dalai" who needed the Chinese governments to appoint him Dalai, it is the Chinese emperors who insisted that they do. And as I said before, this is just a case of a powerful country enforcing it's will on a weaker one.
Quote:
wrong again, and again, look at history, as i have mentioned many times. chinese saying, the insect of the summer cannot understand the concept of ice. go read up, instead of making useless accusations. there are a lot of info in different languages. dont be like sally.
hahaha. Let others decide if what I said sounds like Sally. And from the way you responded with this Sally (CAL public enemy number 1) thingy, sounds that I have hit a nerve. Too close to the truth, poppokku? I love how people react when they can't argue.
Quote:
the real reason is bcos of the survival of 1.3bil against 2mil. national pride? how much per kg? if the chinese really got national pride they'd have taken back siberia or okinawa or mongolia.
No really. It is that they can't. Mongolia is allied with SU at that time. Siberia is aprt of Siberia. And the Americans are in Okinawa. I am pretty sure Tibet was an very easy target for Chinese expansion.
Quote:
doesnt matter, there are still ME countries equal or worst than iran using american weapons. so its all business stuff.
Okay.
Quote:
ha, they never asked me to tell u, but they looked me in the eye and tell me they are happy, even thou they knew i'm a foreigner and foreigners tends to be sympathetic towards tibetan independence, and i observed that they are happy, thats good enuff. have u got anything?
If they are happy and you are happy, that's all that matters. I am glad for both you and Tibetians. I have nothing. Again, it is a "IF".
Quote:
then go and see for urself, as i already said many times. a trip to tibet isnt that ex, if u really want to prove ur point. go take some pics that the chinese bully the tibetans, go take some pics that the tibetans are being tortured and killed or imprisoned, then come and show us. go translate the chinese constitution and laws, and tell us how they dun have rights, go check how many tibetans or minorities arrested by chinese police every yr.
there are a lot of things u can do, instead of ranting baseless accusations here.
wah lao too long liao, take a break.
lol. It is not like the Chinese is going to do all these in plain sight for your convenience. They are smarter than that. If I am able to "take pictures" or see for myself of the Tibetians being tortured, killed or imprisoned, then I should be in the same situation as them. Not something I would like to get myself into.
First of all, they control the press very well in Chinese. Nobody there would want to get themselves sent to some concentration camps for speaking out against the government. A tibetian will never tell you what is really happening in Tibet. They have no reason to trust you which might get them arrest or tortured. This is a fact, no matter how much you pretend it never happens. If China is really that open, millions of intellects will be flocking to China instead of Chinese intellects attempting to flock to America. Even in America, I would not believe what the US government tells their people, why should the Chinese govt be any better. It is not like they are famous for being open and honest. No politican is honest. They will lie to you to get what they want. Human nature. And seriously, if there are "laws" and "constitutions" that work or are enforced as such in every country, then the entire world will be a utopia and everyone will be walking around with smiley faces. And if the Chinese govt tells you that there is like 3 Tibetians or minorities arrested by the Chinese police every year, would you believe them? And does secret police work within the "Chinese Laws"? Just tell me how do they treat their politican enemies? Doesn't your history books tell you that no to trust what these people say? No? Did it tell you what happens to their enemies? Even not, you must be pretty naive to think so. Truly, you should get back to reality.
__________________
He who sows the seeds of pain and suffering cannot reap joy and love.
(Extracted from "Freedom in Exile--The autobiography of the Dalai Lama", pg 269)
all the ideas he said are very true indeed, but then the qns comes back, why didnt he repent for what he did? its back to the walk the walk or talk the talk issue. if he sincerely feel that violence and suppression is bad, he should at least tell the tibetans, the life he's been living, and the lives his fellow monks and nobles were living, b4 the coming of the commies, is wrong, sinful, wadever, and ask the tibetans for forgiveness.
now what he's trying to do was paint tibet as heaven during his time and commies came to destroy all these, take away all the freedom, peace and human rights the tibetans 'enjoyed' during his reign. that is plain lying. what is the proof of this accusation? just look at the tibetan '13 laws' or '15 laws' b4 the commies came to make a change, take a look at the contents, then decide for urself. covering up lies with beautiful, touchy words doesnt change the fact that he's lying. if those words came from a common tibetan, i would totally agree with him. but from the ex slave-owner himself, heh.
chinese saying, old debts dont clear, new loans wont come. he should at least clear his own debts to the tibetans first. how much does it take to acknowledge the mistakes of him and his bunch of monks?
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
i dun understand. now that china already has tibet, and tibet already has autonomy status. what more tibet want. tibet felt very opress under chinese rule meh.
doesnt dailai knows, that he being used by usa like how usa used to use sadam and osama? osama was trained by CIA to fight the soviet union when soviet union attacks iraq. then when soviet is beaten; soviet union was then fallen apart. After the war, osama n sadam becomes of no use to the us, then usa scared osama n sadam will turn aganist them. then use war on terror to curb the ex CIA trained people. haizzzz. if want to say who is really evil, i think usa then evil.
Of course the West is using the Dalai Lama, but that does not mean that Tibet is not oppressed or that they would want to be in Chinese rule. In fact, China has more to lose than anyone else if Tibet became independent. The more reason to suppress any independence movement.
I always believe in self-rule.
__________________
He who sows the seeds of pain and suffering cannot reap joy and love.
yeah, just get back on their feet, not depending on aid and subsidies for centuries. just show u one funny example. tibetan monks and leaders actually make tons of counterfeit coins to cheat tibetans, and qing govt had to buy them back with real money one on one basis. yeah good life under the holy religious monks.
and please lah, starving tens of millions of chinese got nothing to do with tibet, cos they didnt suffer. tens of millions of han chinese died becos of mao wrong doings, but the minorities are still protected. wake up. even if there is a trial for mao's crime in this specific issue, tibetans would be the last ppl to tok cok about it.
hohoho! First example you gave is the Tibetian leaders' wrong doing. And next, you are talking about Mao's (the Chinese leader) wrong doing. Aren't they the same? So let me ask you, if the Tibetian leaders are bad and that gives Chinese the excuse to take over Tibet, does that mean that it gives other countries excuse to come take over China as well? Anyway, those are just that - excuses. Nothing more.
What I am more surprised to see is that people would use history to justify invading another country. Sad that you think that way.
Quote:
so? go and see for urself, compare for urself, simple as that.
eh please lah, the tibetans i talked to would be more than the tibetans u ever see in ur entire life. the tibetan sec school, tibetan high school, tibetan hospital, tibetan hotel, tibetan provincial govt office in beijing and tibetan office of commerce etc are all scattered ard my place, in less than 2 km radius. armchair like me oso got more say than u.
hahaha, when did i say the chinese treat the tibetans well becos they were (distant) cousins? plz dont anyhow hantam. that downgrades ur credibility. i only say that they are closer to the chinese than indians.
You should re-read your post #29.
Quote:
the chinese can treat the tibetans well for various reasons, and those reasons doesnt make the chinese inherently 'bad ppl'. and yes, giving minorities special rights more or less hurt the han chinese, but there is a price for everything, all parties have to give in to others in some ways. the han chinese just have to be cautious when there are minorities ard. i watch my back and my bags when there are ulygur kids ard.
I can we can agree that your point of view is that the Tibetians are treated well by the Chinese. I of course disagree because I find it rather unlikely. And as for whether your observations of the Tibetians is accurate or not, it is another matter. Why don't we leave it as that, because we will be arguing this point over and over again as it will never end.
Quote:
again, yes and no. maintaining tibet as part of the chinese territory safeguards the safety of all chinese population, in cluding the tibetans and other minorities, in many ways. that is something that benefits everyone. so yes there is an underlying reason, and no, it doesnt hurt the tibetans in the long run.
Nice way to put it. Japan too said the same thing about their East Asia co-propserity sphere and we all know how that turns out. History which you love so much, what did it tell you? If you look at history, what does it tell you about one country invading another country?
Quote:
eh please lah, tibet is under chinese rule long b4 india was a threat. in fact indians were never a threat. learn ur history.
I am talking about the 1951 invasion. No need for the retort. And yes, India is a threat to China and some Chinese politicans would consider that area a soft underbelly for foreign attack and influence.
Anyway, the truth is that there isn't many countries which are a threat to China until the coming of the Western powers (probably why a lot of Chinese nationalists seemed obsessed and more often than not blamed everything on the "evil" Westerners). Most wars were fought among the Chinese themselves. It could mean that history is trying to tell us that Chinese cannot rule themselves less they kill each other?
Quote:
kekeke, wrong again, go dig up the thread b4 u start shooting blanks. chinese nationales came in to defend chinese govt bcos they thought the chinese govt were saints, which is obviously not the case. i was in the thread whacking western media, chinese nationales and chinese media cos they were all lying (or being lied to) in one way or another. i distinctly remember i put up pictures showing CCP destroying tibetan temples during the cultural revolution, and mocking chinese natinoales for the lack of understanding the darker side in their own history.
Hmm...if so, then I apologize. But I have to say, I was in that thread and I am don't remember you doing all those. Perhaps you can share the link to the thread for everyone's viewing pleasure.
Quote:
however, i do not pretend not to see the developments and improvements in tibet under the chinese govt, and nor i tok rubbish when i dun even know a single tibetan or had never set foot in tibet.
Ahh.....perhaps you are. But what I think is that you choose to ignore or at the very least close one eye to the misgivings of the Chinese govt merely because of nationalist pride. I think if it is not China that is involved, you would probably have a very different opinion of things.
Quote:
use some logic, the occurance of unchecked mass murders and prolonged riot and looting undermines the image of the govt.
Makes no sense since you claim that the Tibetians are not held accountable and they can kill, loot and rape at will. Having ten millions troops there is just as useless. They will merely do it again and again.
Quote:
wrong, my argument is that tibetans should give up the idea cos its not practical, unrealistic, not beneficial, and plain waste of time and public resources, based on their historical performance.
You could have fooled me. You should re-read your numerous posts about the 6 centuries and all those nonsense.
If you say that the Tibetians should give up the idea, I agree. They are better off with the Chinese. However, my main point is that it is not your Choice, neither it is the Chinese. However, I disagree on your comment on their historical performance, it is of no matter. They can learn, they can change.
Quote:
it depends whether ur pics are credible or are they like CNN and BBC during the riot last yr. if u put up pics of nepalese police and claimed tht it wsa 'chinese police' whacking tibetans, i will go on further to insult u, mock u, wadever.
I don't remember putting up pics of nepalese police and whatever. Hmm...when did I do that?
Quote:
and again, what do u know about sources and propaganda? just bcos u parroted from western medias? let me tell u something like 'sources'. do u know that during the olympics season i cannot but a bottle of johnson's medical alcohol and bring it on the bus in beijing? i have to sign a note at the store stating that i will take a cab home, cos the chinese police dept scared ppl make molotovs out of 'medical alcohol'. do u know that during the olympics season ppl cannot mail any optical media (cd/dvd/bd) to each other? what kind of stupid, absurd rules and infringement on rights is that?
u want to talk about the truth in chinese propaganda about their peace, human rights, happiness and properity? u got no idea what u are talking about. me on the other hand can give u a few examples anytime. ur empty words and accusations are plain water to those that lived under the chinese propagandas everyday, so please refrain from talking about things that u dun even have the slightest idea what it is about. watch 'forrest gump' b4? u are just like those hippies protesting at the monument park, kpkb-ing about something u dont even know.
Wuhahaha, you sound very very off dude. I absolutely have no idea what you are babbling about right now. I would suggest you slow down and gather your thoughts. It seems that my remark on propaganda has really set you off. Again, I am sure it has hit it's mark.
Anyway, let me make clear to you on my comment - News/History sources (yours and mine) are mostly propganda and at the very least biased. I would say from your two very long paragraphs of "molotovs" and "forrest gump", you disagree?
The fact that you are in China (or Tibet) and is facing the full might of powerful Chinese propaganda could be the main reason why you are so eager to support the point of view from the Chinese. You should read from both sources and you will get a clearer picture of things and what is really happening.
Quote:
already explained. tibet obviously cannot survive on their own, not becos they are inferior in DNA or brainpower, but bcos of geographical and climatic conditions. other countries more or less can, and those 'cannot rule' claims by colonists do not stand. even sg without agriculture and enuff freshwater can make it up with international trade and services/banking/finance. too bad tibetans lacks all these. that is why dalai had to claim sichuan and qinghai province for his 'greater tibet'.
Tibet has tons of natural resources and is a huge tourist destination. I am quite sure that they will survive. They can ask for international aid to get started and the infrastructure and "good" education left by the Chinese will definitely help. It also does not mean that the Chinese have to leave completely. Business interest between China and Tibet can continue and I am sure it will be beneficial to both. Furthermore, currently non-existent trade links can be setup between Tibet and India. It can also be a gateway for Indian or Chinese businesses to setup companies. Who knows, it could be the next Switzerland - oh, which is also shockingly another country without much agriculture and lacks access to the sea.
And you do know that the Dalai only claimed a small part of Sichuan and Qinghai is his birthplace. It is not really all about money or financial gain in this case. More of Tibetian pride and his ego.
Quote:
he knew it pretty well the limitation of tibet, and obviously he's wiser than u.
Then perhaps you should listened to him. Oh..yes, I forgot, chinese pride standing in the way again.
__________________
He who sows the seeds of pain and suffering cannot reap joy and love.
Not really. Truth. And since you love history so much, history does prove that I what I said is right, does it not?
sterotyping and series of wrong analogies doesnt prove anything actually. maybe lack of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Tibet is a tourist destination and even now, most of it's economy is based on that. Tibet is also rich in Chromite, Copper, Lithium, boron, magnetite, Barite and Arsenic. In fact, they supply the most chromite in China as well as lithium (one of the highest in the world). They are rank 2nd in supply of Copper in China.
again, as i said, dont tread into places u are unfamiliar with. u lose credibility. tibet dun rank second in supply of copper. the company which owned the yulong (jade dragon) copper mine in tibet, however, jumped from 7th producer to 2nd producer with the beginning of copper mining in tibet since 2008. but production of tibetan copper only takes up about 3% of chinese copper production at 30000 tons a yr. amount of reserves and concentration is however, among the top 3.
most of tibetan resources were left as it is for decades, even b4 angmohs accusing the chinese of exploiting tibetan resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
So, let me get you straight, you are now saying that only the rich or rich endowed or big countries can be independent or control their own destiny and that they also have to right to control others? Anyway the common people in China and Indian were virtual slaves to their masters as well, what's the difference whether you call it Feudal or slavery?
After WW2, Mao virtually enslaved millions of his own people during the cultural revolution. Weren't these people that died treated worst than slaves? It does not mean that they can't change and their system of governance cannot change either.
again, twisting my words. sure all countries supposedly have the right to control their destiny, but not all have the ability to do so. for some, thats bcos they have not been trained or given a chance to exercise that right and ability. for others, their natural/political/climatic conditions doesnt allow them to do so. for tibet, they got all of the above, so just too bad. its not about they want or not, they cant. just like i want to date, say angelina jolie, i have absolutely the right to do so, but i simply dont have the resources, the chance or wadever requirements to fulfill it. just too bad.
not happy? thats reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
History is important, but common sense and an understanding of human nature trumps it. You should stick to what you know - reading history and leave the current affairs to people who can think out of the book.
doesnt make sense when one who doesnt know the core of his topic trying to uphold 'justice' for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
So you are saying that if the brits treat Singaporeans better than their own people, they should rule Singapore and Singaporeans should not have self-rule? Again, there is something very very wrong here.
IF, and why not IF the singaporeans choose not to exercise their rights and stayed under british rule? then what? u gonna force their rights down their throat? now thats what i called very very wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
You know why I say that cannot be true? Nobody treats other people better than they treat their own, simply because it is against human nature. There is always something behind it all.
well it only reflects on urself. dun anyhow represent others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
If they accept Chinese rule all the while, I have nothing to say. Of course, the key word is "IF". I am pretty sure that the Tibetians would rather rule themselves than having foreigners rule them, no matter how sugar coated your history books tell you. In fact, common sense tells me, if they have a choice, they would rather rule themselves.
yeah, IF u are sure. but they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
In China, you can hide things from the press. Not only hide things from the press, the Chinese govt controls the press there. Other foreign press are tightly controlled and regulated. Am I making this up? Don't think so. If they are not hiding anything, why do all these things? It is not like they have anything to fear right?
then tell me, how come u know anything IF they control it so tight? did they tell u they control so tight and that they dont tell anyone they massacred and imprisoned hundreds and thousands of dessidents?
and how come i knew about all these and can link the news pages, pics and reports to these incidents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Seriously, if it is very far from the truth, then the Chinese have no worry about this. It is not like the Tibetians will rebel if the Chinese treats them very well. The Dalai Lama will not pose any threat to the Chinese at all. He is not like being supported by anyone in Tibet since every Tibetians love the Chinese and abuses them. And it is not like the West will send troops in to "liberate" the Tibetians anytime soon. Furthermore, the Western media is for the West and will not affect the Chinese at all. And most importantly you will not be here defending the Chinese (I am assuming that you are a Singaporean here, correct me if I am wrong) since you have no part in Chinese politics.
dalai isnt a threat anymore. the chinese govt simply bochap him nowadays. they are walking their own path no matter what dalai is ranting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Agreed. Of course, you blame it on the evil Western media for making the Chinese do all these. I wonder if the evil Western media is so powerful and overwhelming, what else is the Chinese politicans doing for their masters, the Western media?
the western media isnt so powerful, but for one thing, the chinese govt arent happy about being criticised, so they avoided it. its more of answering to themselves than to the west. besides, causing dissentment doesnt bring them any good. and as suntzu said in the art of war, prepare urself and wait for the carelessness of ur enemy. so thats it, the chinese govt try to do nice nice until the riots last yr, when dunno what the hell happened, allwestern media made the mistakes by putting up false pics and distored reports, and all got caught red handed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Aiya, you misunderstood me.
If the title of the Dalai gives his more status and power, of course he would not denounce the title. Anyway, it is not the "Dalai" who needed the Chinese governments to appoint him Dalai, it is the Chinese emperors who insisted that they do. And as I said before, this is just a case of a powerful country enforcing it's will on a weaker one.
wrong again, thats becos the first tibetans cant settle their succession disputes. in old days the reincarnation of lamas were decided by the chanting of possessed priest. in order to gain power, different lama factions bribed the high priest to chant the name of their own candidates. such succession disputes always led to conflicts or even bloodshed. in 1785, disgrunted red hat lamas fled to nepal and instigated the ghurkas to invade tibet, they looted tibet twice, including the famous Tashilhunpo Monastery in 1785 and 1792. the qing govt had to defend tibet, so in 1792-93, the chinese army marched up tibet and drove out the nepalese, right up to their capital of kathmandu. nepalese surrendered and became chinese vassal. the central govt thus implemented the ID system for reincarnation to prevent further disputes and acts of high treason.
so, the tibetan kicked their own arses first. and note that the central govt gave tibetans a lot of freedom, didnt station troops in tibet too. but the tibetans simple cant handle things themselves. proven by history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
hahaha. Let others decide if what I said sounds like Sally. And from the way you responded with this Sally (CAL public enemy number 1) thingy, sounds that I have hit a nerve. Too close to the truth, poppokku? I love how people react when they can't argue.
maybe i can quote u again... so 'full of urself'.
yeah u have 'hit a nerve'. imagine this, i had never even lodge a complaint or asked for a ban on sally after all these yrs of harassment, yeah, she really did 'hit my nerve'. and probably u did too.
please lah, i've seen worst arseholes, u are nowhere near that. pointing out one similiarity btw u and her is just a snap of my fingers. oh, maybe u can call that 'hit a nerve'. i wouldnt comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
No really. It is that they can't. Mongolia is allied with SU at that time. Siberia is aprt of Siberia. And the Americans are in Okinawa. I am pretty sure Tibet was an very easy target for Chinese expansion.
i thought u were saying 'nationalism' instead of my 'practical considerations'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
lol. It is not like the Chinese is going to do all these in plain sight for your convenience. They are smarter than that. If I am able to "take pictures" or see for myself of the Tibetians being tortured, killed or imprisoned, then I should be in the same situation as them. Not something I would like to get myself into.
wah, u sure? how come i'm still toking to u after me criticising the chinese govt over chinese network in their most prominent online sites, right here in china for a full decade? oh maybe i'm some uber untouchable that they had to let me go and renew my visa and entry permit every yr? how come i didnt know that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
First of all, they control the press very well in Chinese. Nobody there would want to get themselves sent to some concentration camps for speaking out against the government. A tibetian will never tell you what is really happening in Tibet. They have no reason to trust you which might get them arrest or tortured. This is a fact, no matter how much you pretend it never happens. If China is really that open, millions of intellects will be flocking to China instead of Chinese intellects attempting to flock to America. Even in America, I would not believe what the US government tells their people, why should the Chinese govt be any better. It is not like they are famous for being open and honest. No politican is honest. They will lie to you to get what they want. Human nature. And seriously, if there are "laws" and "constitutions" that work or are enforced as such in every country, then the entire world will be a utopia and everyone will be walking around with smiley faces. And if the Chinese govt tells you that there is like 3 Tibetians or minorities arrested by the Chinese police every year, would you believe them? And does secret police work within the "Chinese Laws"? Just tell me how do they treat their politican enemies? Doesn't your history books tell you that no to trust what these people say? No? Did it tell you what happens to their enemies? Even not, you must be pretty naive to think so. Truly, you should get back to reality.
heh, if the chinese govt are just doing what other govt are doing, what is ur problem then? if no politician is honest, then how do u know u are not being lied to from the other side? the difference here is, i can tell u which part the chinese govt lied and which part they are doing pretty well. u on the other hand, cant tell me which part dalai lama lied and which part is the truth.
and yeah, reality is the word, cold war is over, get back to reality. maybe its better for u to visit china and look at their propagandas and face reality. hope it wouldnt be too much for u to take.
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
hohoho! First example you gave is the Tibetian leaders' wrong doing. And next, you are talking about Mao's (the Chinese leader) wrong doing. Aren't they the same? So let me ask you, if the Tibetian leaders are bad and that gives Chinese the excuse to take over Tibet, does that mean that it gives other countries excuse to come take over China as well? Anyway, those are just that - excuses. Nothing more.
What I am more surprised to see is that people would use history to justify invading another country. Sad that you think that way.
wrong again, the chinese never said they went to tibet to give good life to the tibetans, they said the tibetans began to enjoy good life after they took over. see the diff? probably not. thats the fallacy of ur 'arguments' (if they can be considered 'arguments') so far, the justifying colonialism etc. as i already put it. the chinese maintained tibet as part of their territory for the sake of national security.
dun have to. i'm pretty sure there is no connection btw 'cousins' and 'treating them well'.
the cousin part came in when comparing chinese/japanese and chinese/tibetans. the treating them well part came in when comparing angmoh colonists/colonies and china/tibet.
dunno know how u can skip the wall of text in btw and bring the 2 together. very CNN style leh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
I can we can agree that your point of view is that the Tibetians are treated well by the Chinese. I of course disagree because I find it rather unlikely. And as for whether your observations of the Tibetians is accurate or not, it is another matter. Why don't we leave it as that, because we will be arguing this point over and over again as it will never end.
u find? with what? imagination? well done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Nice way to put it. Japan too said the same thing about their East Asia co-propserity sphere and we all know how that turns out. History which you love so much, what did it tell you? If you look at history, what does it tell you about one country invading another country?
well, too bad tibet turns out better than great asian properity sphere. the truth always hurts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
I am talking about the 1951 invasion. No need for the retort. And yes, India is a threat to China and some Chinese politicans would consider that area a soft underbelly for foreign attack and influence.
Anyway, the truth is that there isn't many countries which are a threat to China until the coming of the Western powers (probably why a lot of Chinese nationalists seemed obsessed and more often than not blamed everything on the "evil" Westerners). Most wars were fought among the Chinese themselves. It could mean that history is trying to tell us that Chinese cannot rule themselves less they kill each other?
oh, 1951 invasion to create a buffer? yah using own territory as buffer, damn smart the chinese. let me teach u, a buffer is like mr kim in NK or uncle ho in vietnam. u dun use a place where u want to admin directly and call it a buffer. wake up.
and again, wrong, chinese fought among themselves but enjoyed peace longer than war. the tibetans only enjoyed peace when they were under the chinese rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Hmm...if so, then I apologize. But I have to say, I was in that thread and I am don't remember you doing all those. Perhaps you can share the link to the thread for everyone's viewing pleasure.
there were 2 or 3 threads on the same topic then, and i replied to all if i'm not wrong, so if u want to accuse me, put up ur evidence, not me trying to prove my innocence. get it straight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Ahh.....perhaps you are. But what I think is that you choose to ignore or at the very least close one eye to the misgivings of the Chinese govt merely because of nationalist pride. I think if it is not China that is involved, you would probably have a very different opinion of things.
there is no nationalist pride cos i'm not a chinese nationale, too bad to disappoint u.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Makes no sense since you claim that the Tibetians are not held accountable and they can kill, loot and rape at will. Having ten millions troops there is just as useless. They will merely do it again and again.
not when state of emergency is announced. i bet u know the diff btw civil law and martial law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
You could have fooled me. You should re-read your numerous posts about the 6 centuries and all those nonsense.
If you say that the Tibetians should give up the idea, I agree. They are better off with the Chinese. However, my main point is that it is not your Choice, neither it is the Chinese. However, I disagree on your comment on their historical performance, it is of no matter. They can learn, they can change.
and thats the point. they should learn to rule themselves first, learn to get back their heritage first, learn to support and maintain their own lifestyle first, instead of living off chinese subsidies and foreign donations. empty slogans and violent acts to get independence now is useless, pointless. but the tibetans are not seeing this. so too bad, their fate is sealed, not by the chinese, but by themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
I don't remember putting up pics of nepalese police and whatever. Hmm...when did I do that?
IF, see, thats the word u like to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Wuhahaha, you sound very very off dude. I absolutely have no idea what you are babbling about right now. I would suggest you slow down and gather your thoughts. It seems that my remark on propaganda has really set you off. Again, I am sure it has hit it's mark.
Anyway, let me make clear to you on my comment - News/History sources (yours and mine) are mostly propganda and at the very least biased. I would say from your two very long paragraphs of "molotovs" and "forrest gump", you disagree?
The fact that you are in China (or Tibet) and is facing the full might of powerful Chinese propaganda could be the main reason why you are so eager to support the point of view from the Chinese. You should read from both sources and you will get a clearer picture of things and what is really happening.
as stated in the previous post, u can only brand this and that 'propagandas' without knowing why or how is it they are 'propagandas', what is the true story, etc. or u simply brand this and that as 'propagandas' as long as it doesnt fit u. me on the other hand can tell u which part of the chinese story is propaganda and which part is not, and why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Tibet has tons of natural resources and is a huge tourist destination. I am quite sure that they will survive. They can ask for international aid to get started and the infrastructure and "good" education left by the Chinese will definitely help. It also does not mean that the Chinese have to leave completely. Business interest between China and Tibet can continue and I am sure it will be beneficial to both. Furthermore, currently non-existent trade links can be setup between Tibet and India. It can also be a gateway for Indian or Chinese businesses to setup companies. Who knows, it could be the next Switzerland - oh, which is also shockingly another country without much agriculture and lacks access to the sea.
oh yeah, double standards in the working again. chinese go and develop the place introduce industrialisation, angmoh kaopeh pollution, destruction of natural landscape, destruction of tibetan traditions. then out of a sudden all these become unimportant when dalai wants to dig it up. it probably will become a successful model of transition if western companies are given contracts to mine the place.
not double standards, triple standards liao. kekeke...
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
And you do know that the Dalai only claimed a small part of Sichuan and Qinghai is his birthplace. It is not really all about money or financial gain in this case. More of Tibetian pride and his ego.
kekeke, as i said, no pics no truth.
thats the present map of china, tibet in orange, southwest corner. and below:
that's 'greater tibet' as claimed by dalai. tibet in yellow, and 'greater tibet' in orange. a 100% increase in land area that includes almost all of qinghai province and half of sichuan province.
yeah, a small part indeed. please, u are losing credibility big time.
angmoh map in the 19th century, the area of tibet more or less coincides with the present tibet SAR.
see the diff? now imagine this, its no longer something like 'singapore wants to go independence', it's 'singapore wants to go independence with half of johore'. see whether the malays will agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidghost
Then perhaps you should listened to him. Oh..yes, I forgot, chinese pride standing in the way again.
indeed i listened to him, and realised that he's a liar. but of cos he lied professionally, ppl like u actually believed.
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
all the ideas he said are very true indeed, but then the qns comes back, why didnt he repent for what he did? its back to the walk the walk or talk the talk issue. if he sincerely feel that violence and suppression is bad, he should at least tell the tibetans, the life he's been living, and the lives his fellow monks and nobles were living, b4 the coming of the commies, is wrong, sinful, wadever, and ask the tibetans for forgiveness.
now what he's trying to do was paint tibet as heaven during his time and commies came to destroy all these, take away all the freedom, peace and human rights the tibetans 'enjoyed' during his reign. that is plain lying. what is the proof of this accusation? just look at the tibetan '13 laws' or '15 laws' b4 the commies came to make a change, take a look at the contents, then decide for urself. covering up lies with beautiful, touchy words doesnt change the fact that he's lying. if those words came from a common tibetan, i would totally agree with him. but from the ex slave-owner himself, heh.
chinese saying, old debts dont clear, new loans wont come. he should at least clear his own debts to the tibetans first. how much does it take to acknowledge the mistakes of him and his bunch of monks?
In the first place, do you think the CCP is likely to also repent for what they have done during the Cultural Revolution leh?
Anyway, from what I've read from the book, he was pretty sheltered away from the not-so-rosy reality of the ordinary Tibetan lives during his growing up years. And he also mentioned that though he was aware of the activities of the "Freedom Fighters", he actually does not approve of their not-so-peaceful approach.. Just that his power is limited.. His govt is divided and unless he can be as ruthless as people like Mao, I suppose he's pretty helpless too..
Another thing is, you keep stressing that given Tibet's geographical and climatic condition, they are unlikely to survive on their own. I beg to differ. Life at the Arctic is even harsher than the Tibetans' and yet the Inuits have survived well--though certainly not as materially comfortable as those living in modern world.. Yes, Tibetans' lives under Chinese rule are becoming better..MATERIALLY.. But are they becoming seriously spiritually happier and more fulfilling than before.. or otherwise? I think the problem with us is that, we always tend to judge/decide based on our own standard or yardstick--which could have been very different for different people.
the first thing is, what is the accepted standard of 'repent'? below is the wiki entry on cultural revolution:
Quote:
On June 27, 1981, the Central Committee adopted the "Resolution on Certain Questions in the History of Our Party Since the Founding of the People's Republic of China", a document pertaining to the official historical assessment of a series of political movements since 1949. In this document, it is stated that the "Chief responsibility for the grave 'Left' error of the 'Cultural Revolution,' an error comprehensive in magnitude and protracted in duration, does indeed lie with Comrade Mao Zedong". It is stated that the Cultural Revolution was carried out "under the mistaken leadership of Mao Zedong, which was manipulated by the counterrevolutionary groups of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing, and brought serious disaster and turmoil to the Communist Party and the Chinese people."
so in simple words, the official judgement from CCP was 'bad leadership by mao and his wife, which brought serious disaster to the chinese'. there was no apology from the govt to its ppl, not even a museum set up to expose the wrong doings. but the cultural revolution is always remembered in chinese literature of every kind, as an era of disaster that must not be repeated. although i think there is still much room for improvement, i would grade it slightly better than the 'honest mistake' used by our sg govt.
does dalai show any form of remorse or regret about the suffering of the tibetans under him or the previous dalais? not that i know of. he still paint it as paradise and the chinese are the evil invaders that destroyed all these. yes he might not be directly involved in all these, but as a leader shouldnt he at least make a stand denouncing the past evils b4 he starts pointing fingers at others?
and how can u compare the inuits to the tibetans? they are like 1/20 the population of tibet living across almost twice the land area of tibet (not counting the ice cap), yes the weather is as cold or even colder, but they dun lack oxygen to breath nor they kena UV exposure on 4000 m highlands. they have much more convenient transport routes than tibetans to access resources. tibet is landlocked with few roads, and those mountains posed serious threats to planes and helicopters. if we put them on the same scale assuming all things equal, on average each one of them is entitled to the resources roughly equals to that of 30 or 40 tibetans, of cos they can survive. and on a side note, did they form an independent country? or are they living off the assistance of canada and america? my understanding was they were counted in canadian and american census, and they are supported by the canadians and americans.
material comfort and spiritual happiness are not conflicting, it doesnt mean u have to give up one to get the other. and i dunno how to measure 'spiritual happiness'. was it like soft music with a beer after office hours? was it like smoking ganja everyday and constantly keeping a smile on the face, like some of the nepalese i saw in nepal? or was it like sally creating havoc here and feeling happy herself? the tibetans were not being stopped from pursuing religious or spiritual paths. in fact the govt provided them with all sorts of convenience.
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
sterotyping and series of wrong analogies doesnt prove anything actually. maybe lack of knowledge.
Wuhahaha. Perhaps.
Quote:
again, as i said, dont tread into places u are unfamiliar with. u lose credibility. tibet dun rank second in supply of copper. the company which owned the yulong (jade dragon) copper mine in tibet, however, jumped from 7th producer to 2nd producer with the beginning of copper mining in tibet since 2008. but production of tibetan copper only takes up about 3% of chinese copper production at 30000 tons a yr. amount of reserves and concentration is however, among the top 3.
most of tibetan resources were left as it is for decades, even b4 angmohs accusing the chinese of exploiting tibetan resources.
Ya, that is what chinese propaganda is letting you to believe. As I said, always read beyond what propaganda tells you. Makes no sense for anyone to invade such a big country, supposedly provide aid and not take something from it. You really are naive to believe them. And it is pretty sad to see that even supposedly very well educated people fall into the trap.
What did history tells you when a more powerful country invades another if not to exploit resources? China is no different. This is a combination of both common sense and human nature.
Quote:
again, twisting my words. sure all countries supposedly have the right to control their destiny, but not all have the ability to do so. for some, thats bcos they have not been trained or given a chance to exercise that right and ability. for others, their natural/political/climatic conditions doesnt allow them to do so. for tibet, they got all of the above, so just too bad. its not about they want or not, they cant. just like i want to date, say angelina jolie, i have absolutely the right to do so, but i simply dont have the resources, the chance or wadever requirements to fulfill it. just too bad.
I can easily quote you on your remarks. You never once mention they have the right to control their destiny. I have time and again said it is up to the Tibetians. You had said that they are too poor to do so and the Chinese did a right thing to come and take over Tibet. Self rule and self determination is not like dating. That's one very silly analogy. And not really. Self-determination might sometimes be a tough road to take, I believe that nearly all Tibetians if given a chance would want to self rule. If you claim that they have not been trained or political, economic and climatic conditions don't allow, it is merely just another excuse. Neither did most others. But in the end, they are determining their own future. And I shall repeat what I had said before, just because you are poor, doesn't give anyone else a right to control you on how to live your life.
And I shall repeat something which you kept ignoring, I agree that Tibet should be under Chinese control. But yet again, it does not mean it is up to you, the Chinese or the West to say so. Let the Tibetians really decide.
Quote:
not happy? thats reality.
Excuses is not reality.
The reality is that China is a powerful nation and would like to enforce it's will on weaker countries like Tibet. If you cannot accept this simple universal fact, you have indeed been reading too much propaganda.
Quote:
doesnt make sense when one who doesnt know the core of his topic trying to uphold 'justice' for them.
If you know what justice means, you won't be defending the actions of the Chinese. Just because you are saying the exact same thing as what the Chinese govt is saying, does not make you "know" the core of this topic. Just like because you talk to a few Tibetians who have no reason to trust you, that does not mean you know what is happening in Tibet.
Quote:
IF, and why not IF the singaporeans choose not to exercise their rights and stayed under british rule? then what? u gonna force their rights down their throat? now thats what i called very very wrong.
Wuhahaha. now, you are really twisting my words. If Singaporeans chose to stay under British rule, I have nothing to say. Again, I shall repeat IF the Singaporeans CHOSE to stay under British rule, I have nothing to say. They have chosen. I am definitely not going to force that down their throats. In fact, I would support them(us) wholeheartedly.
For the Tibetians, chinese rule was FORCED down their throats. You defense of that action is that they are poor.
Quote:
well it only reflects on urself. dun anyhow represent others.
Na, not really. It's the truth. Sometimes, pride makes it hard to swallow the truth. Coming from someone who represents the Western leaders as greedy, self serving, maniuplative people. But I agree. However, I also say that the Chinese leaders are just as greedy, self-serving and manipulative as them.
Quote:
yeah, IF u are sure. but they are not.
I am very sure of that.
Quote:
then tell me, how come u know anything IF they control it so tight? did they tell u they control so tight and that they dont tell anyone they massacred and imprisoned hundreds and thousands of dessidents?
and how come i knew about all these and can link the news pages, pics and reports to these incidents?
Of course a few might have escaped. And several brave Tibetians might also have told their fellow Tibetians and those they trusted about it. Furthermore the Tibetian spiritual leaders had said that it had happened.
I am not sure what incidents are you talking about. Please elaborate.
Quote:
dalai isnt a threat anymore. the chinese govt simply bochap him nowadays. they are walking their own path no matter what dalai is ranting.
That is true. That is why they have no need to help the Tibetians as you claimed. However, it makes sense to suppress any opposition in Tibet and wipe out any trace of independence movement.
Everything is a propaganda. The editorials and news sources you get your information from, they will say one thing. Take it with a pinch of salt. I do with everything I read.
Quote:
the western media isnt so powerful, but for one thing, the chinese govt arent happy about being criticised, so they avoided it. its more of answering to themselves than to the west. besides, causing dissentment doesnt bring them any good. and as suntzu said in the art of war, prepare urself and wait for the carelessness of ur enemy. so thats it, the chinese govt try to do nice nice until the riots last yr, when dunno what the hell happened, allwestern media made the mistakes by putting up false pics and distored reports, and all got caught red handed.
Wuhahaha, that is very funny. If the Chinese govt aren't happy about being critized and the western press is often calling for Tibetian self determination, would they avoid it by offering exactly that to the West? Even better for the Chinese as they don't have to foot the cost of controlling and paying for the welfare of Tibetians. And what dissentment is there? Isn't the Tibetians extremely happy to live with Chinese rule?
I find that highly unlike. I am pretty sure that the Western media people are smart enough not to make mistakes and put up false pics and distorted reports for people like you to insult them, mock then and wadever.
Quote:
wrong again, thats becos the first tibetans cant settle their succession disputes. in old days the reincarnation of lamas were decided by the chanting of possessed priest. in order to gain power, different lama factions bribed the high priest to chant the name of their own candidates. such succession disputes always led to conflicts or even bloodshed. in 1785, disgrunted red hat lamas fled to nepal and instigated the ghurkas to invade tibet, they looted tibet twice, including the famous Tashilhunpo Monastery in 1785 and 1792. the qing govt had to defend tibet, so in 1792-93, the chinese army marched up tibet and drove out the nepalese, right up to their capital of kathmandu. nepalese surrendered and became chinese vassal. the central govt thus implemented the ID system for reincarnation to prevent further disputes and acts of high treason.
Apparently, the Tibetians lamas (currently China's public enemy no 1) seem to be able to instigate a lot of things and do a lot of wrong doings. Some people think they might have some evil magic powers gifted to them by satan or something. First they make fake money or something, they torture and kill a lot of their own people, they instigate others to invade, they do bad here, do bad there. Talk about massive propaganda.
Quote:
so, the tibetan kicked their own arses first. and note that the central govt gave tibetans a lot of freedom, didnt station troops in tibet too. but the tibetans simple cant handle things themselves. proven by history.
Oh, here we go again.
Quote:
maybe i can quote u again... so 'full of urself'.
Nope, I never boasted once about me as a Chinese and that we are mature aka enlightened while others are not. I also never claim that other people cannot rule themselves because of history proves it and only the Chinese can do it for them.
Quote:
yeah u have 'hit a nerve'. imagine this, i had never even lodge a complaint or asked for a ban on sally after all these yrs of harassment, yeah, she really did 'hit my nerve'. and probably u did too.
please lah, i've seen worst arseholes, u are nowhere near that. pointing out one similiarity btw u and her is just a snap of my fingers. oh, maybe u can call that 'hit a nerve'. i wouldnt comment.
Not really. If it didn't hit very close to something you know is true but you cannot accept or refuse to accept, you would not have responded as such. The "sally" comment was out of place.
Quote:
i thought u were saying 'nationalism' instead of my 'practical considerations'?
??? Tibet is a practical place for the Chinese to expand in the name of Chinese nationalism. The others you named aren't. I am saying that at that time they do not have the means, it doesn't mean they don't want to.
Quote:
wah, u sure? how come i'm still toking to u after me criticising the chinese govt over chinese network in their most prominent online sites, right here in china for a full decade? oh maybe i'm some uber untouchable that they had to let me go and renew my visa and entry permit every yr? how come i didnt know that?
lol! Not really. You are extremely pro-china, even if you believe yourself not to be pro-ccp and anyway, you are not a chinese citizen. At the very least you are saying the exact same nationalist bull**** they are saying. And it is not like you are some sort of journalist with a great influence over people anyway.
China did indeed deport a number of foreign journalists. Most Chinese journalists are just reporting what the chinese govt wants them to report.
Quote:
heh, if the chinese govt are just doing what other govt are doing, what is ur problem then? if no politician is honest, then how do u know u are not being lied to from the other side? the difference here is, i can tell u which part the chinese govt lied and which part they are doing pretty well. u on the other hand, cant tell me which part dalai lama lied and which part is the truth.
and yeah, reality is the word, cold war is over, get back to reality. maybe its better for u to visit china and look at their propagandas and face reality. hope it wouldnt be too much for u to take.
I have no problem with the Chinese govt doing what other govt are doing. Actually I have a problem with that but it is a fact of life. I know that I am being lied to from "the other side". The problem is that you don't. You take them as face value. Your sources are just as biased and one sided as the West. I have said that the Western media is more or less biased many times in this thread, which of course you chose to ignore. I try to take everything with a pinch of salt, whether it is pro-china sources or western sources.
Actually, for the most part, you agree with everything the Chinese did in Tibet. I disagree and I know that things are not as rosy as you make them out to be. If you undersand reality, you would easily understand that. Get rid of your pride and only then can you see the full picture.
__________________
He who sows the seeds of pain and suffering cannot reap joy and love.
Last edited by solidghost : 15-03-2009 at 03:31 PM.
the first thing is, what is the accepted standard of 'repent'? below is the wiki entry on cultural revolution:
so in simple words, the official judgement from CCP was 'bad leadership by mao and his wife, which brought serious disaster to the chinese'. there was no apology from the govt to its ppl, not even a museum set up to expose the wrong doings. but the cultural revolution is always remembered in chinese literature of every kind, as an era of disaster that must not be repeated. although i think there is still much room for improvement, i would grade it slightly better than the 'honest mistake' used by our sg govt.
does dalai show any form of remorse or regret about the suffering of the tibetans under him or the previous dalais? not that i know of. he still paint it as paradise and the chinese are the evil invaders that destroyed all these. yes he might not be directly involved in all these, but as a leader shouldnt he at least make a stand denouncing the past evils b4 he starts pointing fingers at others?
and how can u compare the inuits to the tibetans? they are like 1/20 the population of tibet living across almost twice the land area of tibet (not counting the ice cap), yes the weather is as cold or even colder, but they dun lack oxygen to breath nor they kena UV exposure on 4000 m highlands. they have much more convenient transport routes than tibetans to access resources. tibet is landlocked with few roads, and those mountains posed serious threats to planes and helicopters. if we put them on the same scale assuming all things equal, on average each one of them is entitled to the resources roughly equals to that of 30 or 40 tibetans, of cos they can survive. and on a side note, did they form an independent country? or are they living off the assistance of canada and america? my understanding was they were counted in canadian and american census, and they are supported by the canadians and americans.
material comfort and spiritual happiness are not conflicting, it doesnt mean u have to give up one to get the other. and i dunno how to measure 'spiritual happiness'. was it like soft music with a beer after office hours? was it like smoking ganja everyday and constantly keeping a smile on the face, like some of the nepalese i saw in nepal? or was it like sally creating havoc here and feeling happy herself? the tibetans were not being stopped from pursuing religious or spiritual paths. in fact the govt provided them with all sorts of convenience.
First question is, were the Tibetan commoners really, really, suffering under the monastic rule? Or could it be just a notion that the Chinese govt is trying to make their people believe? And if the Tibetans commoners themselves had never complained, why should the Chinese govt be so (overly) "righteous" to go and "liberate" them?
Secondly, how sure are we about the (non) survivabiliy of Tibet if under self rule? Yes the altitude is high, UV is killing, the oxygen is scare.. but..er.. what has it got to do with the govt they are under leh? Note that being independant (btw I am not propagating this for Tibet hor) doesn't mean that they have to be cut off/isolated from the rest of the world (and their neighbours) mah.
Lastly, still remember that writer Woeser who wrote about the influx of Hans into Tibet thereby threatening the ethnic Tibetans to become minority in their own land? It has kind of strike a chord in me in view of the now extremely relaxed FT/FW policy that our own govt is adopting lately, resulting in the influx of foreigners, in particular the large quantity from China. Let's admit it, many Singaporeans feel threatened too. And that's despite the fact we are not under the Chinese ruling, meaning if our govt want to stop the influx, they still can. But what about the Tibetans?
First question is, were the Tibetan commoners really, really, suffering under the monastic rule? Or could it be just a notion that the Chinese govt is trying to make their people believe? And if the Tibetans commoners themselves had never complained, why should the Chinese govt be so (overly) "righteous" to go and "liberate" them?
Secondly, how sure are we about the (non) survivabiliy of Tibet if under self rule? Yes the altitude is high, UV is killing, the oxygen is scare.. but..er.. what has it got to do with the govt they are under leh? Note that being independant (btw I am not propagating this for Tibet hor) doesn't mean that they have to be cut off/isolated from the rest of the world (and their neighbours) mah.
Lastly, still remember that writer Woeser who wrote about the influx of Hans into Tibet thereby threatening the ethnic Tibetans to become minority in their own land? It has kind of strike a chord in me in view of the now extremely relaxed FT/FW policy that our own govt is adopting lately, resulting in the influx of foreigners, in particular the large quantity from China. Let's admit it, many Singaporeans feel threatened too. And that's despite the fact we are not under the Chinese ruling, meaning if our govt want to stop the influx, they still can. But what about the Tibetans?
i told u liao, there are enuff evidence to prove it. even woeser's husband said that in his own book. maybe u think the chinese are lying. then u can go look up wiki under 'serfdom in tibet'. althou they put it under 'disputable', at least a handful of angmoh researchers had enuff evidence to prove that it exist.
pretty sure about their past, but not absolutely sure about the future. but do u want to risk? aiya, the health concern is just a comparison with the inuits u mentioned, dont get mixed up. the tibetans still have to face UV and short of oxygen no matter who rule. i was saying all sorts of problems, including economy, industrial, defense, and the general awareness of the tibetans etc etc.
look at the map i posted. i told u liao, woeser was talking about the greater tibet area, the part in orange in the wiki map, not the tibetan heartland. the tibetan heartland is still >90% tibetans. the orange area has been mixed population all the while, ppl come and go, nothing as 'influx of chinese'. u must understand that chinese still have residential control in these days, similiar in NK. a chinese leave his place of residence for more than 5 days without proper documents, he stand the chance of being caught by police, kena charge fines (and had to pay quite a huge sum of bribe else kena hantam in jail), and then kena deport back to hometown, with his own money. they oso requires some form of border pass to get into tibet heartland, like visiting pass to HK and Macau, not suka suka can go one.
in other words, chinese cannot move freely in their own country. when i first came to china, chinese cannot even board luxury train without proper papers to prove their status. money got no use, the train inspector will just kick the poor guy to normal cabins where of cos, he wont find a seat cos his ticket doesnt belong there. now situation slightly better liao. woeser was among the more informed ppl, as a journalist for some magazine or something, she should've known better. the only places where chinese can come and go without border passes are the surrounding mixed community areas, not tibet SAR itself. she only sian foreigners who didnt have a clue about the residential system in china.
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
i told u liao, there are enuff evidence to prove it. even woeser's husband said that in his own book. maybe u think the chinese are lying. then u can go look up wiki under 'serfdom in tibet'. althou they put it under 'disputable', at least a handful of angmoh researchers had enuff evidence to prove that it exist.
pretty sure about their past, but not absolutely sure about the future. but do u want to risk? aiya, the health concern is just a comparison with the inuits u mentioned, dont get mixed up. the tibetans still have to face UV and short of oxygen no matter who rule. i was saying all sorts of problems, including economy, industrial, defense, and the general awareness of the tibetans etc etc.
look at the map i posted. i told u liao, woeser was talking about the greater tibet area, the part in orange in the wiki map, not the tibetan heartland. the tibetan heartland is still >90% tibetans. the orange area has been mixed population all the while, ppl come and go, nothing as 'influx of chinese'. u must understand that chinese still have residential control in these days, similiar in NK. a chinese leave his place of residence for more than 5 days without proper documents, he stand the chance of being caught by police, kena charge fines (and had to pay quite a huge sum of bribe else kena hantam in jail), and then kena deport back to hometown, with his own money. they oso requires some form of border pass to get into tibet heartland, like visiting pass to HK and Macau, not suka suka can go one.
in other words, chinese cannot move freely in their own country. when i first came to china, chinese cannot even board luxury train without proper papers to prove their status. money got no use, the train inspector will just kick the poor guy to normal cabins where of cos, he wont find a seat cos his ticket doesnt belong there. now situation slightly better liao. woeser was among the more informed ppl, as a journalist for some magazine or something, she should've known better. the only places where chinese can come and go without border passes are the surrounding mixed community areas, not tibet SAR itself. she only sian foreigners who didnt have a clue about the residential system in china.
OK I give in--better let you channel all your energy to debate with solidghost lah, hehe. Afterall, regardless of the outcome of the debate, the fact still remains, ie Tibet can never break away from China.
Just one more thing though. While I am not aware that the Tibet that Dalai and Woeser talked about refers to a much larger territory, I still doubt that the Tibetan really cannot survive without including the larger, more habitable Qinghai and the rest.. Cos I suppose after having lived up there for so many generations, the natives should be quite acclimatize to it liao.
OK I give in--better let you channel all your energy to debate with solidghost lah, hehe. Afterall, regardless of the outcome of the debate, the fact still remains, ie Tibet can never break away from China.
Just one more thing though. While I am not aware that the Tibet that Dalai and Woeser talked about refers to a much larger territory, I still doubt that the Tibetan really cannot survive without including the larger, more habitable Qinghai and the rest.. Cos I suppose after having lived up there for so many generations, the natives should be quite acclimatize to it liao.
aiya, if u really interested go look at their history. tibet once had about 8mil pop during the tang dynasty. but at that time their land area is like more than 5mil sq km, 4 times that of today, and extends into nepal, northern india and the mongolian plains. also took present qinghai and part of sichuan. becos of the low lands they can support such a population.
map: tibetan empire is area bounded by blue line.
but after the 10th century they lost land to multiple parties. in qing dynasty, 7 centuries later, they only got about 1mil pop. with the area slightly larger than present tibetan SAR. the mountains cannot support them.
some more u just look at the map and the numbers u know liao. 2+ mil with heavy subsides from ccp, they got not enuff ppl to patrol the borders. if all 6 mil tibetans flock into SAR, they got enuff ppl but then not enuff resources. if take away chinese subsidies and food supply, energy supply, worst still.
alright, below is something i'm reluctant to say but too bad the truth.
the drop in population in ancient tibet wasnt entirely becos of depletion in land area and food sources. one more reason, seldom mentioned by scholars, was the promotion of buddhsim in tibet by mongolian and manchurian govt. for some of the tibetan buddhism factions, monks are allowed to marry. but for most of them no. the promotion of buddhism in tibet encouraged a lot of tibetans joining the temples as monks and nuns. the more ppl became monks and nuns, the lower the population growth. in qing dynasty, there were even policies to encourage tibetans becoming monks. family with 2 kids should send one to temple. family with 3 kids should send 2 to temple. these were all recorded in history texts. the qing emperors explicitly said that building monastries are cheaper than maintaining troops in tibet. from 1751 to 1949, tibetan population decreased by about 800k.
so here comes the dilema for the angmoh tibetan supporters. if they blamed the manchurian govt for this, they are shooting their own feet cos the present 'religious' tibetans we see today, actually stems from such policies in the past. the aim was to reduce the tibetan population. the by product was the supposedly 'religious' and 'spiritual' tibetans we see now. ccp on the other hand try to limit te large amount of monks and monastries and bring population and economy back to normal. but they were being criticised as 'destroying the tibetan culture'.
if angmohs criticised the manchurian govt, it would also meant the commies did the right thing. if they criticised the commies, then it would mean the manchus stands correct in trying to eliminate the tibetan population thru religion. in the end it seems commies are the more eminent enemy, manchurians already history so let sleeping dogs lie. the angmohs decided to keep quiet about manchus and fire at the commies instead.
therefore if the tibetans now cannot take this chance provided by the chinese govt to make a transition towards modern society, they cannot survive. if they want to cling on to the so-called religious traditions, which was actually implemented to reduce their population, or if they still live they lives with one hand taking subsidies from chinese govt and then the other hand giving it to the monks and temples, then they are doomed. they lost 3/4 of their population bcos of this. if they dun learn their lessons, independence or not, they will be at the losing end.
__________________
switch off the lights and its all the same...
Its always nice to see a healthy debate , but cant help but notice a change in tone
Anyway , there is no doubt the lifes of the tibetians have improved , however that still does not mean they do not want independant.
It is of my belief that , the reason that china do not want to grant it , despite of it being all to far is of simple national pride and the effect of other separatist movement!
It is without doubt , the invasion of tibet was to protect their own interest , but why it is because of the happening in tibet
However i also believe the chinese would really want to get their fromer manchurian land in russia and many other places , however the power of the other country prevent it from happening
Okinawa is interesting , it was never in china control , in fact they had a special place by being the faciltatior of trades between japanese and chinese , even thou they claim chinese as their overlord
p.s a side note , karate is from okinawa and is more chinese kung fu then any japanese arts , so , so much for superior japanese during ww2
Channels
TECH GUIDES
