Best Term Insurance Plan(Do Not Solicit for Pm)

akwl88

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
10,696
Reaction score
1
While there are many things I understand from where you are coming from and for some point, I actually agree it makes sense, that thread is if not the worst insurance thread ever because apple is just instigating people to cancel policies without even understanding the need for it.

Not sure how from your posts here in this section you can support him/her stand in this.

That thread is to show that many pple are misled by agents to buy useless policies and losing their hard earned money while their agents get fat comms. I can show you various blogs too:

1) http://sgbudgetbabe.blogspot.sg/2016/10/why-i-cancelled-my-ilp-investment.html

2) http://jkfund.blogspot.sg/2015/06/my-investment-linked-plan-ilp-journey.html?m=1

3) http://www.turtleinvestor.net/surrendering-my-aia-prime-life-policy/

4) http://lazyreitinvestor.blogspot.sg/2016/11/regret-in-buying-into-axa-pulsar.html
 

maruikun

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
78
Reaction score
1
Personally I also feel that there are too many agents in Singapore calling themselves financial advisors when they themselves are not even savvy enough. So I understand where you are coming from. But there are good ones out there that deserve their paycheck for the work they do.

I concur with this statement. Can you imagine someone completing the insurance course and beginning to sell investment product without any prior investment knowledge? Nowadays there are many "financial advisors" on the street but most of them don't even have good knowledge on the product they are selling. They have good knowledge on the commission they are collecting. I believe there are genuine good advisors out there, but not easy to find.
 

eternalxiii

Master Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,604
Reaction score
667
That other thread is so toxic that it almost gave me cancer :s22:

We all know BTIR is the most cost efficient way, but it is simply irresponsible to ask everyone to cancel their plans. Just to give a summary of the key points I would consider:

1. Break-even. Insurance is not free. A fair comparison would require subtracting the cost of the term plan (vs ILP for example).

2. Trading costs. Since the popular strategy here is to DCA and buy STI ETF, with a small budget of $200 monthly, the min. trading fee is stanchart at $10 which equals 5% fees. Of course you can pay $1000 every month or every 3-4 months then it will become 1%. Don't forget the 0.5% ETF fee as well.

3. Discipline. This method means, whether markets up or down, u gotta continue doing the same thing. Recession coming again, 2008 market crash happen again, still gotta buy the STI ETF by yourself. No excuses.

So, end of the day, assuming (1) and (2) are calculated properly, THEN we have grounds for comparison. Yes, BTIR will show a better number. So, the deciding factor is (3).

If have no discipline or expertise, gotta pay the difference for (3). If have discipline or expertise, then by all means DIY.

For the record, what does expertise mean? 2 main things.
A) Valuation - DCF, Comps, LBO, Options pricing
B) Research - Macro and micro economics, govt. policies, news etc.

Even with expertise, a retail investor is just small fish in ocean vs big banks and institutions like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs which can manipulate markets in short run.

Pls ah, those "investors" who just depend on random hot stock tips (like some in this forum), or go for some guru investing or trading seminar, they are better off sticking with ILP assuming they find a good advisor.

This is why internal rate of return is the key metric to determine whether to engage an advisor. And not his fees.
 
Last edited:

akwl88

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
10,696
Reaction score
1
That other thread is so toxic that it almost gave me cancer :s22:

We all know BTIR is the most cost efficient way, but it is simply irresponsible to ask everyone to cancel their plans. Just to give a summary of the key points I would consider:

1. Break-even. Insurance is not free. A fair comparison would require subtracting the cost of the term plan (vs ILP for example).

2. Trading costs. Since the popular strategy here is to DCA and buy STI ETF, with a small budget of $200 monthly, the min. trading fee is stanchart at $10 which equals 5% fees. Of course you can pay $1000 every month or every 3-4 months then it will become 1%. Don't forget the 0.5% ETF fee as well.

3. Discipline. This method means, whether markets up or down, u gotta continue doing the same thing. Recession coming again, 2008 market crash happen again, still gotta buy the STI ETF by yourself. No excuses.

So, end of the day, assuming (1) and (2) are calculated properly, THEN we have grounds for comparison. Yes, BTIR will show a better number. So, the deciding factor is (3).

If have no discipline or expertise, gotta pay the difference for (3). If have discipline or expertise, then by all means DIY.

For the record, what does expertise mean? 2 main things.
A) Valuation - DCF, Comps, LBO, Options pricing
B) Research - Macro and micro economics, govt. policies, news etc.

Even with expertise, a retail investor is just small fish in ocean vs big banks and institutions like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs which can manipulate markets in short run.

Pls ah, those "investors" who just depend on random hot stock tips (like some in this forum), or go for some guru investing or trading seminar, they are better off sticking with ILP assuming they find a good advisor.

So many pple losing money in their ILP yet you recommend ILP...

Chiu is agent?
 

Asphodeli

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
20,208
Reaction score
2,101
That other thread is so toxic that it almost gave me cancer :s22:

We all know BTIR is the most cost efficient way, but it is simply irresponsible to ask everyone to cancel their plans. Just to give a summary of the key points I would consider:

1. Break-even. Insurance is not free. A fair comparison would require subtracting the cost of the term plan (vs ILP for example).

2. Trading costs. Since the popular strategy here is to DCA and buy STI ETF, with a small budget of $200 monthly, the min. trading fee is stanchart at $10 which equals 5% fees. Of course you can pay $1000 every month or every 3-4 months then it will become 1%. Don't forget the 0.5% ETF fee as well.

3. Discipline. This method means, whether markets up or down, u gotta continue doing the same thing. Recession coming again, 2008 market crash happen again, still gotta buy the STI ETF by yourself. No excuses.

So, end of the day, assuming (1) and (2) are calculated properly, THEN we have grounds for comparison. Yes, BTIR will show a better number. So, the deciding factor is (3).

If have no discipline or expertise, gotta pay the difference for (3). If have discipline or expertise, then by all means DIY.

For the record, what does expertise mean? 2 main things.
A) Valuation - DCF, Comps, LBO, Options pricing
B) Research - Macro and micro economics, govt. policies, news etc.

Even with expertise, a retail investor is just small fish in ocean vs big banks and institutions like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs which can manipulate markets in short run.

Pls ah, those "investors" who just depend on random hot stock tips (like some in this forum), or go for some guru investing or trading seminar, they are better off sticking with ILP assuming they find a good advisor.

This is why internal rate of return is the key metric to determine whether to engage an advisor. And not his fees.
Sorry, I am the outlier, I do my own homework and analyzed stocks one :s22:

So far this year has been the most profitable year since I started investing 10 years ago, whereas my ILP which I started 5 years back is down 50%.

Sent from Sony E6533 using GAGT
 

maruikun

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
78
Reaction score
1
Some agents are actually uni students who are studying and whish to earn fast cash. They wont be bothered about their clients or their products. Strawberry agents especially sell with their easy-goging personality and pleasent faces.

Passing the insurance course isn't as tough as you may think, and the course only covers really basic (and unecessary stuff considered by most ppl) stuff which does not go indept abt financial planning or products. In the agency, agents are only trained to sell instead of being trained to provide proper advice.

You can call the successful agents very good salesmen but not very good advisors. That's the definition.

The reality is pleasant looking agent is already one step ahead of the others. Will you approach a sweet young thing or will you approach an auntie? This question should not be difficult to answer. It has happened in the past, it will happens in the future. Human nature doesn't change isn't it?

Passing should be easy which is why you see alot of young faces. I heard from insurance friend that the exam is all multiple choices. It puzzles me why exam does not have scenario based questions. Every client is unique and insurance agent should be tested on different situations not just MCQs. Exam for real estate agent does have scenario based questions and not easy to pass. Failure rate is quite high.

And yes I agree there are agents who have very good salestalk. A below par product can also become an above par product.
 

eternalxiii

Master Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,604
Reaction score
667
Sorry, I am the outlier, I do my own homework and analyzed stocks one :s22:

So far this year has been the most profitable year since I started investing 10 years ago, whereas my ILP which I started 5 years back is down 50%.

Good job and all the best for the years ahead :s12:

Most definitely ILP will be down in first 5 years. Even a well-managed one will take 10 years to break-even. You are paying one year of premium in fees and also paying for insurance. Why did you buy ILP when you had 5 years investing experience? Term is more cost-efficient.

So many pple losing money in their ILP yet you recommend ILP...

Chiu is agent?

I did not make any recommendation.

If that chunk of analysis was too dense for you, then maybe I summarize it even further for you.

"ILP may be viable for certain types of people if managed by a competent advisor who is able to generate a reasonable internal rate of return in the long run."

I am entitled to my own opinion, as are you and others.
 
Last edited:

akwl88

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
10,696
Reaction score
1
Good job and all the best for the years ahead :s12:

Most definitely ILP will be down in first 5 years. Even a well-managed one will take 10 years to break-even. You are paying one year of premium in fees and also paying for insurance. Why did you buy ILP when you had 5 years investing experience? Term is more cost-efficient.



I did not make any recommendation.

If that chunk of analysis was too dense for you, then maybe I summarize it even further for you.

"ILP may be viable for certain types of people if managed by a competent advisor who is able to generate a reasonable internal rate of return in the long run."

I am entitled to my own opinion, as are you and others.

Pls sic which ilp plans, which advisor and what rate of returns are reasonable

:)
 

maruikun

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
78
Reaction score
1
Most definitely ILP will be down in first 5 years. Even a well-managed one will take 10 years to break-even. You are paying one year of premium in fees and also paying for insurance. Why did you buy ILP when you had 5 years investing experience? Term is more cost-efficient.

This is not true. My 10 years ILP is still underwater. Sunk cost $25k, SV $11k. Not even reach the break-even cost. Why did I buy? Can only blame myself for not being savvy and buy on recommendation by relative. I believe most of us would have buy similar product during our young days. Humans are weird. Humans care alot about money but humans are willing to let "financial advisors" especially those young faces on the street decide about their money. It's quite ironic but it is the truth from what I see.

How do we define well-managed? It is really subjective. The financial advisor manage for you? Or we manage ourself? I believe most financial advisors who sold the ILP product does not even know how to manage the policy themselves. After receiving commission from the first few years, do you seriously think they will care about the client? Don't get me wrong, I am not against any financial advisor selling ILP product, I am just sharing my opinion here. And I really feel ILP is a poor investment product.
 

eternalxiii

Master Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,604
Reaction score
667
The reality is pleasant looking agent is already one step ahead of the others. Will you approach a sweet young thing or will you approach an auntie? This question should not be difficult to answer. It has happened in the past, it will happens in the future. Human nature doesn't change isn't it?

Passing should be easy which is why you see alot of young faces. I heard from insurance friend that the exam is all multiple choices. It puzzles me why exam does not have scenario based questions. Every client is unique and insurance agent should be tested on different situations not just MCQs. Exam for real estate agent does have scenario based questions and not easy to pass. Failure rate is quite high.

And yes I agree there are agents who have very good salestalk. A below par product can also become an above par product.

The turnover rate in the insurance industry is too high. 80% of agents don't last more than 2 years. Therefore the agencies or companies can only sponsor the most basic exams.

There are higher qualifications which cost a few thousand to obtain, such as Chartered Financial Consultant and Certified Financial Planner. So if you want to have more confidence, find an advisor with these qualifications because it means they have put in time, money, and effort in their careers.

http://fpas.org.sg/

Pls sic which ilp plans, which advisor and what rate of returns are reasonable

:)

Are u willing to pay $200/hr for consultation regardless of whether you buy anything? Depending on your needs, it may be term and not ILP as well. 6% IRR over 20-30 years is a reasonable benchmark.
 
Last edited:

eternalxiii

Master Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,604
Reaction score
667
This is not true. My 10 years ILP is still underwater. Sunk cost $25k, SV $11k. Not even reach the break-even cost. Why did I buy? Can only blame myself for not being savvy and buy on recommendation by relative. I believe most of us would have buy similar product during our young days. Humans are weird. Humans care alot about money but humans are willing to let "financial advisors" especially those young faces on the street decide about their money. It's quite ironic but it is the truth from what I see.

How do we define well-managed? It is really subjective. The financial advisor manage for you? Or we manage ourself? I believe most financial advisors who sold the ILP product does not even know how to manage the policy themselves. After receiving commission from the first few years, do you seriously think they will care about the client? Don't get me wrong, I am not against any financial advisor selling ILP product, I am just sharing my opinion here. And I really feel ILP is a poor investment product.

How much is the coverage? Factor in the cost of insurance for 10 years and it may not look that bad. Also go and look at the underlying funds performance (10-year chart), and prospectus. Some of these funds have 2-3 layers of fees. Best to switch funds if its performing poorly for a long time, or have above 1.5% management fees.

You should discuss with your advisor if you are not happy with the results. If u feel that you can invest by yourself then by all means cut losses and buy term. Or, you can treat it as a whole-life plan. Max out the coverage with your existing premium and fund switch to a higher % of fixed income.

Let me share with you an insider's perspective... the true reason why the smart advisor will want to sell ILPs is because they can get clients to put in more money. So they actually have incentives to manage the investment portion well. Then the clients will put in more money and they get more commission. If your advisor did not contact you, it means you are either too small a client, or his performance is poor lol.

Compared to whole life plans. They are fixed. You need to find more and more clients instead of building a long-term relationship with a smaller but better pool. Believe me, advisors who sell term plans will also push to recommend unit trusts and other types of investment vehicles as well. Investment management is one of the few areas a good advisor can differentiate himself.
 
Last edited:

Asphodeli

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
20,208
Reaction score
2,101
The turnover rate in the insurance industry is too high. 80% of agents don't last more than 2 years. Therefore the agencies or companies can only sponsor the most basic exams.

There are higher qualifications which cost a few thousand to obtain, such as Chartered Financial Consultant and Certified Financial Planner. So if you want to have more confidence, find an advisor with these qualifications because it means they have put in time, money, and effort in their careers.

http://fpas.org.sg/



Are u willing to pay $200/hr for consultation regardless of whether you buy anything? Depending on your needs, it may be term and not ILP as well. 6% IRR over 20-30 years is a reasonable benchmark.

Well good luck with that, millennials hate face time with people whom they don't know, therefore the rise of fintech and direct purchase of insurance via internet came up...if I were an agent, I'd get ready to hang my hat in the next 5 years liao...
 

Asphodeli

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
20,208
Reaction score
2,101
Good job and all the best for the years ahead :s12:

Most definitely ILP will be down in first 5 years. Even a well-managed one will take 10 years to break-even. You are paying one year of premium in fees and also paying for insurance. Why did you buy ILP when you had 5 years investing experience? Term is more cost-efficient.

Three main reasons; I was undercovered, I wanted to "try" ILP, and also support my agent friend from sec school who just started his job as an agent...after 5 years (actually to be exact I bought the ILP in March 2010), I decided to drop the ILP plan premiums and coverage to the lowest possible, as I have gotten coverage from the AVIVA SAF GTL and another term plan from AVIVA as well.
 

akwl88

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
10,696
Reaction score
1
The turnover rate in the insurance industry is too high. 80% of agents don't last more than 2 years. Therefore the agencies or companies can only sponsor the most basic exams.

There are higher qualifications which cost a few thousand to obtain, such as Chartered Financial Consultant and Certified Financial Planner. So if you want to have more confidence, find an advisor with these qualifications because it means they have put in time, money, and effort in their careers.

http://fpas.org.sg/



Are u willing to pay $200/hr for consultation regardless of whether you buy anything? Depending on your needs, it may be term and not ILP as well. 6% IRR over 20-30 years is a reasonable benchmark.

chiu nvr ans me question and instead ask me if i willing to pay $200/hr just to know which product and advisor can lock up my money for 20-30 years for 6% irr?

chiu so desperate to get fat comms?

nvr came across any agent here who claim to guaranteed 6% return :s13:

moi sic for you how to get up to 6% return risk free and moi dont charge you also. FOC FOR YOU!

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/cpf-interest-rates-offer-best-riskreturn-tradeoff

you can thank me later

:)
 

awful999

Supremacy Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
5,899
Reaction score
0
One question for ILP is why need to use our premium to buy unit share at ask price then sell back to insurance at bid price ? Why not direct use the premium for the charges ? Like that we loss out on the spread and the charges super high...40% as I posted before in other thread, just because we are carrot head ?

so AVOID ILP if you can, buy term..
Sent from LGE LG-H860 using GAGT
 
Last edited:

eternalxiii

Master Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
3,604
Reaction score
667
chiu nvr ans me question and instead ask me if i willing to pay $200/hr just to know which product and advisor can lock up my money for 20-30 years for 6% irr?

chiu so desperate to get fat comms?

nvr came across any agent here who claim to guaranteed 6% return :s13:

moi sic for you how to get up to 6% return risk free and moi dont charge you also. FOC FOR YOU!

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/cpf-interest-rates-offer-best-riskreturn-tradeoff

you can thank me later

:)

I will not bother answering a troll again. What a waste of my time.

I actually bothered to type out paragraphs of objective analysis, but am met with straw-man and red-herring arguments, and putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I mention a guarantee.

All this guy knows how to do is to harp on people's commission. What a loser. And he thinks that guarantees come freely. Sure la, I guarantee 20% returns, later my firm close shop and run road, sue also cannot get money back. Risk and return is the most basic of finance concepts.

He also has so much confidence in the government. For the record, Singapore ranks 25th, the LAST among all first world countries, for our pension scheme (i.e. CPF). Can I trust the CPF scholars to move from rank 25 to top 10 in a few years? 6% guaranteed returns with no risk in this economic environment? Keep dreaming.

http://theindependent.sg/singapore-ranked-behind-all-first-world-peers-in-retirement-index/
 

Carnage

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2003
Messages
23,227
Reaction score
17
Sorry, I am the outlier, I do my own homework and analyzed stocks one :s22:

So far this year has been the most profitable year since I started investing 10 years ago, whereas my ILP which I started 5 years back is down 50%.

It could be the wrong fund. Never blame the product just because you lost money.

I noticed alot of ppl like to blame ILPs, but no one blame the agent. Some times it could be the agent's fault as well. Other times, it's because circumstances only allow ILP to be sold after fact finding.
 

akwl88

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
10,696
Reaction score
1
I will not bother answering a troll again. What a waste of my time.

I actually bothered to type out paragraphs of objective analysis, but am met with straw-man and red-herring arguments, and putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I mention a guarantee.

All this guy knows how to do is to harp on people's commission. What a loser. And he thinks that guarantees come freely. Sure la, I guarantee 20% returns, later my firm close shop and run road, sue also cannot get money back. Risk and return is the most basic of finance concepts.

He also has so much confidence in the government. For the record, Singapore ranks 25th, the LAST among all first world countries, for our pension scheme (i.e. CPF). Can I trust the CPF scholars to move from rank 25 to top 10 in a few years? 6% guaranteed returns with no risk in this economic environment? Keep dreaming.

http://theindependent.sg/singapore-ranked-behind-all-first-world-peers-in-retirement-index/

All I ask is some simple questions - product name, which advisor and what is the guaranteed returns which you are not able to answer and instead wayang here and there :s13:

If you cannot guaranteed the returns, please do not peddle useless products. It is akin to selling koyok.

Can I trust agents who claim to be able to beat 6% returns?

If yes, kindly sic:

1) Product name
2) Advisor name
3) Guaranteed > 6% returns

If no, please do not go around conning other people's hard earned money and spending it on your audi/merc, condos and overseas vacations :)
 

Asphodeli

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
20,208
Reaction score
2,101
It could be the wrong fund. Never blame the product just because you lost money.

I noticed alot of ppl like to blame ILPs, but no one blame the agent. Some times it could be the agent's fault as well. Other times, it's because circumstances only allow ILP to be sold after fact finding.

It's a global diversified fund...it's considered "safe" for CPF-SA investment as well...what do you think? :s22:
 
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Community Guidelines and Standards, Terms of Service and Member T&Cs for more information.
Top