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elnewbie

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I think you've just answered your own question on how long this can drag on.

C does not have to worry about HDB at all. It's all driven from the probate side.

To be frank, I'm facing a somewhat similar situation. My mom willed her flat solely to my brother who is a known spender. So to prevent my brother from selling n becoming homeless, as Executor, I will delay the process as much as possible.

Thanks for quoting the section. That dumb act does care what happens after probate is granted.

:s22: In another simple case, I started to apply for LOA more than 1 year after death and got LOA more than 1 year after application. Now slightly passed 5 years after obtaining LOA, I together with a co-administrator have still not distributed the estate as beneficiary did not ask for share of estate :s13:



So C just need to delay obtaining the probate as B is unlikely to force the issue nor has the means to?

But C is more concern what HDB will do if C delays obtaining the probate for no reason except to prevent B from squandering his share of proceeds from disposal.
 
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edwinttt1978

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Also, there is a limitation of actions claiming personal estate of deceased person under section 23 of the Limitation Act which states that:

Subject to section 22(1), no action —
(a) in respect of any claim to the personal estate of a deceased person or to any share or interest in the estate, whether under a will or on intestacy, shall be brought after the expiration of 12 years from the date when the right to receive the share or interest accrued; and
(b) to recover from the trustee trust property or the proceeds thereof in the possession of the trustee, or previously received by the trustee and converted to his use.

Section 22(1) is not irrelevant here.

Another relevant statute on the transfer of flat, house or other building on death of owner is found under section 52 of the Housing and Development Act which states that:

(1) The transmission on the death of the owner, whether testate or intestate, or any transfer by the personal representatives of a deceased owner of a flat, house or other building that has been sold subject to the provisions of this Part shall not be registered under the provisions of the Registration of Deeds Act or the Land Titles Act without the written consent of the Board.

(2) Where —

(a) no representation has been taken out under a will or on the intestacy of a deceased owner of a flat, house or other building within 12 months from the death of the owner;

(b) representation has been taken out but the personal representatives do not apply for the written consent of the Board for the transmission or transfer of the flat, house or other building within 6 months from the date of representation; or

(c) representation has been taken out and the personal representatives have the written consent of the Board referred to in paragraph (b), but the sale or transfer of the flat, house or other building is not completed within 12 months from the date of that written consent,

the Board may lodge an instrument with the Registrar of Deeds or the Registrar of Titles, as the case may be, to have the flat, house or other building vested in the Board.
 

henrylbh

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Also, there is a limitation of actions claiming personal estate of deceased person under section 23 of the Limitation Act which states that:

Subject to section 22(1), no action —
(a) in respect of any claim to the personal estate of a deceased person or to any share or interest in the estate, whether under a will or on intestacy, shall be brought after the expiration of 12 years from the date when the right to receive the share or interest accrued; and
(b) to recover from the trustee trust property or the proceeds thereof in the possession of the trustee, or previously received by the trustee and converted to his use.

Section 22(1) is not irrelevant here.

Another relevant statute on the transfer of flat, house or other building on death of owner is found under section 52 of the Housing and Development Act which states that:

(1) The transmission on the death of the owner, whether testate or intestate, or any transfer by the personal representatives of a deceased owner of a flat, house or other building that has been sold subject to the provisions of this Part shall not be registered under the provisions of the Registration of Deeds Act or the Land Titles Act without the written consent of the Board.

(2) Where —

(a) no representation has been taken out under a will or on the intestacy of a deceased owner of a flat, house or other building within 12 months from the death of the owner;

(b) representation has been taken out but the personal representatives do not apply for the written consent of the Board for the transmission or transfer of the flat, house or other building within 6 months from the date of representation; or

(c) representation has been taken out and the personal representatives have the written consent of the Board referred to in paragraph (b), but the sale or transfer of the flat, house or other building is not completed within 12 months from the date of that written consent,

the Board may lodge an instrument with the Registrar of Deeds or the Registrar of Titles, as the case may be, to have the flat, house or other building vested in the Board.

Thanks. Looks like C, who will be the executor as well as the beneficiary of A's share of the HDB flat, has not much choice unless HDB consent to an indefinite delay. Then there is a limitation act for C to stake a claim.
 

elnewbie

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So here's the issue. If yo look at section 2b, it says that you have to write into the board within 6 months of the first representation, but my question is, on what legal basis can you write into the board if probate hasn't been granted in the first place ?

To me, some of these deadlines are time driven rather than event driven. My understanding is that one can only write into the board after probate has been granted.

Thanks. Looks like C, who will be the executor as well as the beneficiary of A's share of the HDB flat, has not much choice unless HDB consent to an indefinite delay. Then there is a limitation act for C to stake a claim.
 

henrylbh

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So here's the issue. If yo look at section 2b, it says that you have to write into the board within 6 months of the first representation, but my question is, on what legal basis can you write into the board if probate hasn't been granted in the first place ?

To me, some of these deadlines are time driven rather than event driven. My understanding is that one can only write into the board after probate has been granted.

I thought it's quite clear. Representation must be taken out within 12 months and representative is given up to 6 months to act on the transfer. With HDB's consent, representative must complete the transfer within 12 month of consent.

So at the extreme, C need to complete the transfer/disposal within 2.5 years, if no further consent is given.
 

elnewbie

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So if the court takes more than 12 months to grant probate, does this mean that HDB has the right to repossess the flat ??

I thought it's quite clear. Representation must be taken out within 12 months and representative is given up to 6 months to act on the transfer. With HDB's consent, representative must complete the transfer within 12 month of consent.

So at the extreme, C need to complete the transfer/disposal within 2.5 years, if no further consent is given.
 

henrylbh

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So if the court takes more than 12 months to grant probate, does this mean that HDB has the right to repossess the flat ??

That's the rules.

It's up to the authority to decide when there are genuine reasons for delay. If an executor is properly appointed then unlikely there would be delay unless there is contest on the validity of will or there is legal dispute on who should be the administrator.

In the absence of disputes, the probate will be given within a year in most cases, though I got LOA slightly more than a year.
 

henrylbh

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I thought it's quite clear. Representation must be taken out within 12 months and representative is given up to 6 months to act on the transfer. With HDB's consent, representative must complete the transfer within 12 month of consent.

So at the extreme, C need to complete the transfer/disposal within 2.5 years, if no further consent is given.


The rules really dashed my hope.

I am C in the illustration :s13:

Though I should be glad to dispose the flat and take my half share, I really want to hold on to the flat (to fulfil my aunty's request) as executor to prevent B from becoming homeless and squandering his share of the proceeds in a few months as he is a compulsive gambler. And that dumb B would not hesitate to get rid of the flat for money.
 

elnewbie

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Whats your relationship like with D ?

If D shares the same concern as you, he should get B to dispute the Probate and LOA to lengthen the time.

Ultimately D will want to toe the line with you as he's the beneficiary of B and will get nothing if B gambles all his money away.

The rules really dashed my hope.

I am C in the illustration :s13:

Though I should be glad to dispose the flat and take my half share, I really want to hold on to the flat (to fulfil my aunty's request) as executor to prevent B from becoming homeless and squandering his share of the proceeds in a few months as he is a compulsive gambler. And that dumb B would not hesitate to get rid of the flat for money.
 

elnewbie

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I believe it's 2.5 years just to transfer to your name alone. Disposal is another timeline altogether. And there are many legitimate ways to delay the sale of the flat.

I thought it's quite clear. Representation must be taken out within 12 months and representative is given up to 6 months to act on the transfer. With HDB's consent, representative must complete the transfer within 12 month of consent.

So at the extreme, C need to complete the transfer/disposal within 2.5 years, if no further consent is given.
 

henrylbh

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Whats your relationship like with D ?

If D shares the same concern as you, he should get B to dispute the Probate and LOA to lengthen the time.

Ultimately D will want to toe the line with you as he's the beneficiary of B and will get nothing if B gambles all his money away.

D is my sis 😊 and aligned with me. What ground she got to disrupt the process? Even the children of A want nothing to do with their mother's will when the mother uplorry.

D only benefit is B uplorry before A. Then I will transfer B's ownership to D and wait for A to go. When A goes, my share will likely to the children of A or to D at my discretion. Amen 😊

My dilemma is that I never like my cousins 😩
 

henrylbh

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I believe it's 2.5 years just to transfer to your name alone. Disposal is another timeline altogether. And there are many legitimate ways to delay the sale of the flat.

But I cannot take over ownership as I am under MOP. Even if can , why would I want to hang on to half ownership by disposing my own flat. By the way, the said flat is a 2rm flat under SERs.
 

elnewbie

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If I'm not mistaken, step 1 is for you to take ownership, then HDB will find you ineligible to own and Step 2 will be to dispose.

I don't think it would be a case where you sell the flat directly from the "Estate of the late Mdm Xxx"

If I'm right, then there are ways to delay step 2. 2 room SERS flat also hard to sell.

But I cannot take over ownership as I am under MOP. Even if can , why would I want to hang on to half ownership by disposing my own flat. By the way, the said flat is a 2rm flat under SERs.
 

henrylbh

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If I'm not mistaken, step 1 is for you to take ownership, then HDB will find you ineligible to own and Step 2 will be to dispose.

I don't think it would be a case where you sell the flat directly from the "Estate of the late Mdm Xxx"

If I'm right, then there are ways to delay step 2. 2 room SERS flat also hard to sell.


Thanks to all. Ok case closed as I now have better understanding the matter and the statutes governing the matter.

Now I only need HDB's understanding, empathy and consent to allow me to hold on to the property as executor without effecting a transfer to me as beneficiary until the demise of B when it will then be sold and distributed to C and D eventually.
 

henrylbh

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My next issue was raised in post #25 which has no comments.

A + B have a joint alternate savings account and rights of survivorship generally applies.

A transferred part of the money in the joint alternate account to open an FD account in A's sole name with instruction that on maturity the money be credited back to the joint alternate savings account.

However, before maturity A passed away.

Will the money in FD account be considered as A's estate as it is not in joint names?

If B is the administrator and deliberately let the FD mature and flow back to the joint alternate account (assuming the bank does not know of A's demise), is the FD money still considered as A's estate? The delay is to avoid getting a letter of administration as A has no other asset that would require a probate.

From my personal experience, some banks would know of account holder's demise and would freeze the deceased's personal accounts immediately while some banks never know about account holder's demise and money/cheque (except cheque in the estate of ....) can still go into and out via ATM card or existing giro.
 
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elnewbie

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If you are again afraid that B will squander the money then inform the bank as soon as A passes on, that you as Executor are rescinding the FD maturity instructions.

My next issue was raised in post #25 which has no comments.

A + B have a joint alternate savings account and rights of survivorship generally applies.

A transferred part of the money in the joint alternate account to open an FD account in A's sole name with instruction that on maturity the money be credited back to the joint alternate savings account.

However, before maturity A passed away.

Will the money in FD account be considered as A's estate as it is not in joint names?

If B is the administrator and deliberately let the FD mature and flow back to the joint alternate account (assuming the bank does not know of A's demise), is the FD money still considered as A's estate? The delay is to avoid getting a letter of administration as A has no other asset that would require a probate.

From my personal experience, some banks would know of account holder's demise and would freeze the deceased's personal accounts immediately while some banks never know about account holder's demise and money/cheque (except cheque in the estate of ....) can still go into and out via ATM card or existing giro.
 

henrylbh

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If you are again afraid that B will squander the money then inform the bank as soon as A passes on, that you as Executor are rescinding the FD maturity instructions.

Oh no. This is a different case. I am B and my father A. All the money in the joint alternate account is his. I merely want him to move money from savings to FD. For some reasons, I abstain from being joint FD holders but I do not want the FD to fall into ambit of estate which will then incur cost in getting probate just for the FD as he has no other assets.
 

edwinttt1978

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Oh no. This is a different case. I am B and my father A. All the money in the joint alternate account is his. I merely want him to move money from savings to FD. For some reasons, I abstain from being joint FD holders but I do not want the FD to fall into ambit of estate which will then incur cost in getting probate just for the FD as he has no other assets.

See the contentious case of Drakeford v Cotton and Stain [2012] EWHC 1414(Ch), where a mother added her daughter’s name to her bank account for convenience in order for the frail mother to access it.

The starting point is a presumption that the monies contributed by the deceased joint owner will fall within his estate.

It will be for the surviving account holder to prove that it was the intended that the funds should belong to him after the death of the other account holder.

This can be difficult to ascertain, as usually there is no written evidence to clarify the position and accounts are often created through an informal mutual understanding between the account holders.
 

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Prices will always fluctuate in Sg lol

Mine is at $250 nett

There are many things to note while doing a Will... actually many of the issues mentioned can be avoided if they were advised earlier.

Joint Accounts - bypasses Wills but case to note is this: if your joint account is with e.g. Child A and you pass on without a Will… Child B and C etc can contest in court that the Joint Account is held in Trust, and not for Child A to inherit.

HDB Flats / Private Property –

Depends on the ownership – Sole Name / Joint Tenancy (based on survivorship) / Tenancy in Common (based on percentage agreed – may not be so good for business owners who are personal guarantors for bank loans)

For HDB flats - Tenancy in Common might be tricky. You can’t own 2 HDB flats in Singapore.

E.g. Husband 50%, Wife 50%. Husband passes away and his 50% forms part of his estate for distribution. If he has children, estate distribution becomes Wife 50%, children 50%. (Intestate Succession Act, if without a Will)

Since the house is part of that estate, the children has to sell back their share to their mother if they are already HDB owners themselves. If the children are minors, then have to apply to hold in trust (subject to approval from HDB)

CPF – Goes to nominated person(s) but not via CPF, but cash or bank transfer. Processing time: about 5 weeks. Bypasses the Will. (Nominations are revoked by marriage)

But if the nominees are minors below 21, the funds will be transferred to Public Trustee which you have to pay a fee annually.

Insurance – nominated beneficiaries… bypasses the Will as well. Fuss free way to pass on your inheritance. However one thing to note is if your policy is bought before Sept 2009 and your named beneficiary is your e.g. Ex-spouse, you cannot change the beneficiary without his/her consent (Section 73 trust)

A good will should also encompass a Total Disaster Clause.

Writing your own will is possible but risky… any mistakes made will render it useless and revert your estate distribution back to following the state law of the country.

Those with young kids – writing a Will allows you to name up to 2 guardians in the event that both parents pass on together.

Guardians will be the appointed Trustees for finances and welfare. If parents pass on without appointing guardians, your children (below 21) will be placed in foster homes – strangers, until the court rules kick in, which can take months). And the problem is the court will just appoint any family member whom they think is the best. But if you are still alive, you know for sure you will NEVER place your child in their care.

Anyone in the midst of divorce should do a Will fast… Divorce takes time to finalise (months/years). If anything were to happen before that, your estate will still be distributed to your current wife aka ex-honey.

Best advice to all is find a proper Will consultant that does financial planning too.

Cheers!
 
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