Official: Portal Router - High Tech router technology, move your WiFi to the Fast Lane

MichaelTan

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https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/33079-ignition-design-labs-portal-reviewed

Cons:

1. Wired router throughput may be iffy for gigabit-grade services
2. Storage sharing is very slow
3. Features still a work in progress

I'm not so concerned with 3 since i am sure more still will come out with firmware updates but can you do a test for 1 and 2? My main devices at home are still wired up so this is a concern.

I've worked on puzzling out the smallnetbuilder article with Portal engineers and discussions have led to the following points:

1) The 5G testing was done on a 6-7 year old qualcomm USB stick, one of the first available, which didn't support some of the latest strategies available on the latest chipsets. It might not reflect real world scenarios where your devices are actually less than 2 years old.

2) The Wi-Fi landscape has shifted significantly since SNB's Wi-Fi test process was last changed only a year ago. Portal is one of the parties who worked with SNB to change some testing procedures to reflect new trends which cutting edge router/ap like Portal Wifi have epitomized. Therefore, SNB will debut a new revision to their testbed and retest the Portal wifi router this month, and it's expected to improve in most areas.

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...mallnetbuilder-s-wireless-testbed-revision-10

3) Although SNB's testing has changed, some points still have to be noted - which will affect SNB's test results in the real world. Chamber testing is SNB's method, but real world testing is ... uhh... more reflective of real world usage.

First, SNB's test procedure allows for 40Mhz wide channels at 2.4GHz - this allows for great performance increase in a chamber, but in the real world this is unrealistic. It's difficult to find a use case where HT20 didn't supply enough bandwidth for the application to work flawlessly. Even with proper high quality video streaming uses HT20. But on the downside, HT40 2.4GHz will be highly affected by interference, including but not limited to 2.4GHz bluetooth interference which has been affecting many devices, which drop when bluetooth comes on. Other interference is from your neighbours' tons of wifi. Result is your HT40 WIFI will drop in the real world or not even carry data properly. To be optimal today, 2.4GHz wifi, if you do use it, should be HT20 and the testing should reflect as such.

Secondly, SNB still refuses (until now) to introduce interference testing. With wifi traffic signal generators easily available and controllable, interference testing should be now (ironically) uniformly applied to all tested products, to make it more in sync with the real world situation but until now they have resisted that kind of testing. More importantly, now that Mesh networks are becoming popular in homes, it becomes even more important to introduce interference testing since more mesh APs mean more potential for interference, and there is such thing as BAD mesh if your router/ap is not capable of avoiding interference from nearby mesh installations, or even from your own units. The Portal router's main trick is to give you the fastest WiFi possible using a variety of interference avoiding strategies, like using DFS, and also real time channel interference scanning with uninterrupted channel switching without a disconnect (which most channel switching competitors have to do).

Portal believes that testing to find the max performance possible from a router is valuable. However, it is more valuable to test how the router's performance degrades with loading, distance, and interference - which is `real world'.

Hence, until then, take SNB's testing procedures with a pinch of salt. What you should really consider, is how properly configured Portal routers perform in the real world, standalone or with Mesh.

What I personally look forward to in SNB's new testing procedures is a proper testing of mesh networks, and finally it will reveal the difference between Portal's mesh networks and its ability to sustain bandwidth over multiple hops, vs some of the other mesh solutions which degrade when more hops are added.
 
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MichaelTan

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2) Does it collect user's privacy data? NETGEAR, ASUS and LINKSYS are doing that. Don't like their stock firmware.

I haven't forgotten your request and working on it. Shortly, Portal will publish with a complete document on this. Within days. For now, let's get some bullet points from their web:

IDL will:
- never collect data regarding the specific websites that you visit
- never collect personally identifiable information while using your Portal device
- never require you to provide personally identifiable information to setup and use your Portal device
- never sell your personal information

IDL with your express consent may:
- collect your mobile geo-location to optimize performance for your WiFi environment
- access your diagnostic status information to resolve any support requests
- automatically upgrade your firmware to the latest firmware

If TL;DR, to me this looks like a tight privacy policy which will never reveal any relevant privacy information.
 

MichaelTan

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Hi Michael ,

How is the performance compared to Linksys Velop ?
Is the setting up of multiple nodes complicated ? i.e. through web-based or app etc. ?

Thanks.

Firstly the Velop is more expensive by itself. 2 pcs it's comparable price online.

The Velop does not have DFS in the version I tested. They say they are working on it but it is doubtful (from the radio structure) that they can do realtime radio monitoring. Meaning, if they ever do switch out of a bad congested channel they will have to disconnect all devices, scan, then reconnect. Disconnect time from what we see from other enterprise devices, is a minute or more. This takes a lot of decisions and development if you didn't build your device to do real time DFS from the ground up, what I say you should just consider and do your own read up on it.

The Velop strangely seems to bandsteer older devices from 5 to 2.4 instead of keeping them at 5, while the Portal keeps those same devices at 5. From what I understand, a shortcut most manufacturers use would be to prioritize signal strength over signal noise ratio or speed - this is the simplest. However, at the edges, between 2.4 to 5 definitely 2.4 would have higher signal strength rather than 5, though lower speed. A human controller would not do a bandsteer in that situation, but a shortcut algorithm will.

If you take a look at the charts in the article, you'd see that the Portal performs very well across all devices, not only Qualcomm devices like the Google Pixel phone. For Pixel phone, Portal and Velop are head to head.

If you're truly geeky, you would notice that in the same article, it mentions that the Velop enforces airtime fairness where it determines which devices go on 2.4 and which goes on 5. In my own testing across many brands, I always HAD to disable airtime fairness (when I could, sometimes you can't) because it kept putting my devices to 2.4 instead of 5 and it was clearly a WRONG decision. The Portal does no such thing. If 5 gives you a great speed, it will put you on 5.

When I was playing with the Velop some months back I could only use the app. No web UI. Portal has the web UI as well as app to set up. The set up is easy peasy for mesh, the app is like a wizard and guides you through setup seamlessly. Every new iteration of the app, the setup gets easier and easier. Reports on web say it's not so simple but trying the new app out, it is really a walk in the park.

What's important to take away from any Portal vs xxx battle: We live in Singapore where we have 30 neighbouring powerful wifi AP blasting and competing with you and interfering with your signal. You don't live in a chamber. DFS and real time DFS scanning of the Portal, and seamless zero wait switching of channel, intelligent channel selection and the approval of a whole 60% more bandwidth in the 5ghz channel are unique to Portal. In real world SG, Portal gives you much better engineered Wifi for the home.
 
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Apparatus

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I haven't forgotten your request and working on it. Shortly, Portal will publish with a complete document on this. Within days. For now, let's get some bullet points from their web:

IDL will:
- never collect data regarding the specific websites that you visit
- never collect personally identifiable information while using your Portal device
- never require you to provide personally identifiable information to setup and use your Portal device
- never sell your personal information

IDL with your express consent may:
- collect your mobile geo-location to optimize performance for your WiFi environment
- access your diagnostic status information to resolve any support requests
- automatically upgrade your firmware to the latest firmware

If TL;DR, to me this looks like a tight privacy policy which will never reveal any relevant privacy information.

Hi

Thanks for the replies.

Q1) So, it comes with laptop/PC software and Android software as well? I have the ASUS software for both the laptop and Android. Very informative and advanced

Q2) So I set another SSID for my 2.4Hz-only devices so as not to mix with the 5GHz traffic, right?

Q3) You said Portal uses the entire 5GHz spectrum. But current 5GHz devices uses a few of the 5GHz frequencies only. I can't see how the current devices can take advantage of the entire 5GHz spectrum and not content with one another in the few frequencies just like in the current routers.

Q4) Since Portal does NOT come with built-in protection for IoT devices against malware infection how do you propose users to do it? FYI, BitDefender Box V2, Norton Core etc are not on sale here and not supported outside the USA if I'm not wrong. That's to say no support here as well.

Currently, my ASUS router comes with TrendMicro built-in protection against malware infection. I believe other top-of-line routers also have such a feature. Yes, I don't like its privacy data collection....that's no doubt.....but it gives real-time protection which I want.

Buying Portal is without protection. Can Portal advise users how to protect themselves?

Q4) How is IDL "with my express consent" may collect data? During my setup of the router or can I turn off these requirements in the router software itself? I believe you already have one set up. Did you see such during the set up or ability to untick such clauses in the software?

Q5) What personal identifiable information like you mentioned websites I visited, start/stop and duration of surfing etc. How about hardware information? It's a known fact that NVIDIA GPU and CyberGhost VPN collect users PC/laptop hardware information. For what reasons nobody can tell. You can turn off NVIDIA's data collection but unable to stop CyberGhost VPN from doing so.

Thanks again
 
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MichaelTan

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Q1) So, it comes with laptop/PC software and Android software as well?

A: it has a web configuration interface and both ios and android apps. Very simple and clear.

Q2) So I set another SSID for my 2.4Hz-only devices so as not to mix with the 5GHz traffic, right?

A: you can set 2.4GHz SSID separately.

Q3) You said Portal uses the entire 5GHz spectrum. But current 5GHz devices uses a few of the 5GHz frequencies only. I can't see how the current devices can take advantage of the entire 5GHz spectrum and not content with one another in the few frequencies just like in the current routers.

A: Most of the devices I tried can use the rest of the 5GHz frequencies, except a few devices including the Asus adpaters and old Amazon devices. There is a compatibility mode if you are own the affected devices. https://support.portalwifi.com/hc/en-us/articles/230886168-List-of-devices-for-compatibility-mode

The Portal router is a new class of Wi-Fi router, utilizing frequency bands not seen in other Wi-Fi products, whether a more traditional Wi-Fi router or some of the newer Wi-Fi mesh products. It includes additional spectrum within the 5GHz space (designated as part of the Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure).

The Portal router has the permission of the FCC to share some of the spectrum normally reserved for radar (U-NII-2 and U-NII-23). This gives Portal 15 extra channels to work with, in the frequency ranges from 5.260 to 5.700 GHz, where other routers in the U-NII-1 and UNII-3 space can operate across 9 channels in the 5.180-5.240 GHz range and 5.745-5.825 range. Because those ranges are also unlicensed, Portal can make use of those too, so in essence you would get 24 channels across the entire 5.180 through 5.825 GHz range.

These new bands are unused by others, so they are free of interference, just for your use.

Q4) Since Portal does NOT come with built-in protection for IoT devices against malware infection how do you propose users to do it? FYI, BitDefender Box V2, Norton Core etc are not on sale here and not supported outside the USA if I'm not wrong. That's to say no support here as well.

Currently, my ASUS router comes with TrendMicro built-in protection against malware infection. I believe other top-of-line routers also have such a feature. Yes, I don't like its privacy data collection....that's no doubt.....but it gives real-time protection which I want.

Buying Portal is without protection. Can Portal advise users how to protect themselves?

A: Just like Antivirus software for far more powerful devices like PCs were hopeless against recent social engineering attacks like the wannacry attack, my personal contention is .... don't let these slow your router down and waste additional CPU cycles, and a false type of protection. This is purely personal though some websites may agree.

Q4) How is IDL "with my express consent" may collect data? During my setup of the router or can I turn off these requirements in the router software itself? I believe you already have one set up. Did you see such during the set up or ability to untick such clauses in the software?

A: In the beginning you may choose not to reveal your location permissions in the app. It's a normal Android function. If you use the web interface, most computers don't have GPS and therefore location not shared. As for other data, if it needs it it will ask for your consent.

Q5) (portal doesn't collect personally identifiable information but) How about hardware information?

A: There is no way for the router to get information about your PC other than the interface type. If you have a Windows program in your computer snooping (eg. some other routers you mentioned give you PC software) yes, those programs will collect your information. Portal has no such windows program, you're safe.
 

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Hey bro, which UBNT AP are you using? The range good?
haiz. no need to pick a fight over this. Don't be offended.

I was just giving a friendly suggestion. Nothing to do with Portal. I'm not really alone in saying avoid 2.4. Here's something: http://www.networkcomputing.com/wir...-should-disable-24-ghz-radios-wlan/1583544862

I don't have a unit with me right now, will post tomorrow. As mentioned my house still using ubnt. Here's a pic of the dedicated 5ghz APs. There's one spare AP I had which is giving free 20mbit to neighbouring foreign workers and maids using 2.4 for distance.

FuTj1nA.png
 

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Hi Michael Tan

Regarding Wannacry attack I suggest you read more.

Other than that thanks for the replies
 

Apparatus

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Hi Michael Tan

Regarding IoT protection

There seems to be a way out but not sure your router can do it. It's using DD-WRT firmware on my ASUS router as suggested in another forum. Can the steps below secure my router and can Portal do it with its firmware?

QUOTE

With DD-WRT you have 2 choices*

1 Create a different subnet for each device. this can take some time,

2*Use guest networks to secure IoT “smart” devices

this will give protection to IoT devices while keeping your own home network* safe.

Thanks

Note:- I supposed they are referring to secure guest network here
 
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MichaelTan

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Hey bro, which UBNT AP are you using? The range good?
using the edgerouter plus the AC Pros. Ubnt is really not recommended for consumer, it's too much rocket science. What I like about it is, if you're the type of guy who loves to see stats and config and histories this is it. And security is sensible and no nonsense like virus detection via router etc. Most of the functions are hardened.

The main weakness is many of their advanced functions are not working, like zero handover delay - is much worse than not using, and only works at 2.4ghz. Configuration is not trival, one can easily expose equivalent as dropping pants in public if mistakes are made, and there is nothing to save you. There's no beamforming on all their products, and no DFS, and frequency scanning on 3AP can take about an hour while Portal does it in realtime. They can't switch channels when the channel is congested, and you would have to use your Android wifi scanner to determine which channel to switch to because their `neighbouring ap' function is very inaccurate.

All that I say is not limited to UBNT but most other enterprise APs experience the same issues. In fact I think UBNT is great value for money but you need a certified network pro to run it well.

All in all, if you're an enterprise with a good MIS and you want an superior but inexpensive alternative to Cisco, Ruckus etc. UBNT fits the bill very very well. But for the home, unless you are a network geek, I STRONGLY DON'T RECOMMEND.
 

MichaelTan

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Hi Michael Tan

Regarding IoT protection

There seems to be a way out but not sure your router can do it. It's using DD-WRT firmware on my ASUS router as suggested in another forum. Can the steps below secure my router and can Portal do it with its firmware?

QUOTE

With DD-WRT you have 2 choices*

1 Create a different subnet for each device. this can take some time,

2*Use guest networks to secure IoT “smart” devices

this will give protection to IoT devices while keeping your own home network* safe.

Thanks

Note:- I supposed they are referring to secure guest network here

If you don't trust your IoT devices, which you should not, it's appropriate to load all your IoT into a guest network. Unlike your Asus which needs you to put DDWRT into your router, the Portal has a secure guest network by default which you can connect your IoT devices to. This isolates the IoT from the rest of your network.

However, my suggestion is:

1) If you don't trust your IoT don't use - because if your IoT camera becomes compromised, even isolated from network you would have obvious privacy issue.

2) using 3rd party DDWRT on your router for security is fallacious - you have no proper QC on the firmware for security, who knows how many unpublished exploits are already in action which specializes in this DDWRT bugs? The manufacturer takes no responsibility.

Also, a word on using malware/antivirus on your router. You're obviously a fan of security, so I have a ready listener in you. This is purely personal views. As you already know, your private browsing information is shared with various servers and you might get exposed. This is unacceptable to me.

Use of router based security like Trend Micro seems to be like the manufacturer outsourcing the responsibility of security to a 3rd party company. Who is responsible for bugs in the security firmware, router manufacturer or 3rd party?

Nowadays your gmail and everything else is using encrypted traffic. They are NOT ABLE TO BE SCANNED by any man in the middle software like Trend Micro's protection on the router - it will NEVER be able to be able to see any malware download from your https gmail secure connection, for example.

Incorporation of 3rd party programs like Trend Micro protection into routers increase the complexity of the firmware and may by itself pose vulnerabilities. Do router companies audit the source code of Trend Micro's protection software? I don't think the source code is released to them. Without source code audit, how safe are you?

Bottom line is, while security on the router side is very desirable, unless the implementation is complete, well thought out and not patched in, you might as well not use it or invest in a true security solution not patched on to your router halfway, something manufactured and fully supported by ONE party - the manufacturer.

Don't fall for router security for marketing purposes, don't be having a false sense of security, always be vigilant.

For early adopters, make sure your stuff is all patched up and that you understand security implications of whatever settings you do while we await a truly secure solution.

Until then, Portal maintains its own security in its firmware as every bit of source code is under own control, has the proper router security following best practices for this class of device, proper and robust NAT and SPI firewall, etc. That will have to do for now unless the world has a breakthrough in security method.

Currently for consumer class devices, security though critical has to be solved through individual device security.

But the main issue most people are trying to solve, is connectivity in difficult environments - whether because of noise or house architecture and layout, and that's what a lot of the new technology introduced by a brand new class of routers like the Portal. Combining DFS, realtime congestion scanning, mesh, signal noise monitoring etc. it aims to give you state of the art `perfect' wifi for the home.
 

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Just a small illustration of Portal's powerful DFS enabled router.

Here, let me share with you what the Portal is doing in my office network environment on the 4th floor at my desk.

I10NRR8.png


Now refer to the channel table here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_....A0GHz_.28802.11a.2Fh.2Fj.2Fn.2Fac.29.5B18.5D

The SSID testing3A is the Portal. It's using channel 100 of 5GHz. From the table, you can see that for Singapore, you can only legally use channel 100 if you are DFS/TPC enabled. So that's why you can see the Portal is on full blast VHT80 on channel 100.

But look at the competition! Everybody is crowded around channel 58, 149-165. Why?

So now you can easily see that with Portal, a huge chunk of spectrum is available to you and it's not a gimmick. Without DFS/TPC I would have to crowd around the common channels with many other people. And I'm in Ubi. If I'm at home, HDB, Shenton Way, it will be a much more brutal RF environment.

Once Portal detects traffic around 100, I would be shifted to another channel which is best for my environment. There's a delay factor to compensate for some legacy devices but you'd be shifted after that delay factor. On most other solutions, you will stay at the congested channel forever.
 

Apparatus

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Hi Michael Tan

Thanks for the reply regarding the issue on protection of IoT devices

Use of router based security like Trend Micro seems to be like the manufacturer outsourcing the responsibility of security to a 3rd party company. Who is responsible for bugs in the security firmware, router manufacturer or 3rd party?

IMO, I think ASUS may not have the capability so that's why they teamed up with TrendMicro in IoT protection. From the user standpoint any problem we just refer to ASUS. ASUS & TrendMicro will have to work out the bugs in ASUS's firmware.

Not only ASUS but other router manufacturers also have some kind of IoT protection implemented into their top-of-line routers. So cannot be wrong lah

FYI, I'm trying very hard to move away from Google. I'm dissociating from its devices and connected services. Once my gmail account is cleared I'll be free from Google.

You said Portal as a secured guest mode. May I ask how many devices can this secured guest mode support?

Thanks again
 
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MichaelTan

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Hi Michael Tan

Thanks for the reply regarding the issue on protection of IoT devices

You said Portal as a secured guest mode. May I ask how many devices can this secured guest mode support?

Thanks again

As many as the router can take, 50 at this time or more if their resource consumption is not so high.
 

Apparatus

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As many as the router can take, 50 at this time or more if their resource consumption is not so high.

Many thanks

Can I get the Portal now from say Challenger, HN, COURTS, BEST etc? What about Convergent itself? I bought quite a number of Samsung IP cameras from them previously.
 
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Convergent Systems SG

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Hello Apparatus

For now, you may find Portal at Courts, Harvey Norman, Sprint-Cass, Lazada and fellow retailers in Sim Lim Square (To name a few: Fuwell, Cybermind, PC Themes, DynaCore), whichever is to your convenience!

In time to come (Very soon), we will be branching out Portal's availability island-wide
 

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Hello Apparatus

For now, you may find Portal at Courts, Harvey Norman, Sprint-Cass, Lazada and fellow retailers in Sim Lim Square (To name a few: Fuwell, Cybermind, PC Themes, DynaCore), whichever is to your convenience!

In time to come (Very soon), we will be branching out Portal's availability island-wide

Thanks. I'll get one tomorrow.
 

Apparatus

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As many as the router can take, 50 at this time or more if their resource consumption is not so high.

Hi Michael

Just some last questions on the settings.

For non-IoT devices

Main WiFi - I can set my laptops/smartphones to 5GHz and those 2.4GHz-only devices to 2.4GHz

For IoT devices

Secure Guest Mode - I set my IP cameras to 5GHz. For 2.4GHz-only devices I set them to 2.4GHz

Are the above settings correct?

Many thanks
 
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