Discussion on DAC(Digital to Analog Converters)

[Questor]

As I am upgrading my equipment to a higher tier, I am hearing more details in my music that wasn't noticeable before, sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse. Too much detail/resolution/accuracy isn't necessary a good thing.

Mysteries I'm talking about are something far fetched.. something along the lines of why turning on or off my unused power sockets (with nothing attached) in the audio room will affect the sound, even when I'm on a dedicated line (I actually have 3 for my hifi).

I have tried clocks and again, doesn't mean better.. guess what, even what cable you use for the clocking also changes the sound.

As for details - I think more is better. I feel the issue is whether the sound is balanced when you elevate one characteristic.. it's just like you added a bit more salt in your food, you may need to adjust the blend of spices so it doesn't taste too salty.

Similarly, since you mention camera, hobbyists often focus too much on the camera/lens and not enough on how to take a great photograph. What captures life is not just determined by a great camera/lens.. just like in hifi, while a equipment can be really good in the lab or measure well, at anyone else's place, it will sound totally different.

Enjoy.

 

[dqwong]

Mysteries I'm talking about are something far fetched.. something along the lines of why turning on or off my unused power sockets (with nothing attached) in the audio room will affect the sound, even when I'm on a dedicated line (I actually have 3 for my hifi).

I have tried clocks and again, doesn't mean better.. guess what, even what cable you use for the clocking also changes the sound.

As for details - I think more is better. I feel the issue is whether the sound is balanced when you elevate one characteristic.. it's just like you added a bit more salt in your food, you may need to adjust the blend of spices so it doesn't taste too salty.

Similarly, since you mention camera, hobbyists often focus too much on the camera/lens and not enough on how to take a great photograph. What captures life is not just determined by a great camera/lens.. just like in hifi, while a equipment can be really good in the lab or measure well, at anyone else's place, it will sound totally different.

Enjoy.

There's so much variables in the audio chain that it's mind bongling to think of all things that affect the final audio output.

So far my best sounding setup(Non-AC Powered) is

Ipad 2 with Accudio Pro(Player with EQ) > Camera Connection Kit > Centrance Dacport(USB Y Spitter with usb power bank) > Headphones.


The problem with good equipment/playback system is that the extra bass, resolution and detail gets fatiguing for the ears/brains to keep up.

Sometimes you just want to relax and listen to some background music and not overly analyze the music.

E.g. if the same song is played on radio, due to the lower SNR/loudness compression of radio transmission, it sounds so much more relaxing to listen to vs the flac version that I have which has too much dynamic range and tend to bombard your auditory system with more loudness changes, sibilance and etc.

It's like viewing an oil painting of scenery(easy to understand) vs a HD video of the scenery on a 4K OLED 80" display(information overkill).

This is especially with the latest ESS DACs(almost all of them), where they tend to sound more aggressive/attacking/revealing/forward with the drums and cymbals.

 

[Questor]

The problem with good equipment/playback system is that the extra bass, resolution and detail gets fatiguing for the ears/brains to keep up.

I still don't agree with this point.

If you want to feel relaxed, then listen to relaxing music.. you can't expect to listen to heavy metal to relax. If relaxing music is fatiguing, then something is wrong.

If you find watching 4K OLED 80" display is fatiguing, it's partially because it's calibrated wrongly. A well calibrated display should be natural to the eyes.. you can't judge based on some display in a shop which is tweaked to maximise dynamic contrast for 'wow factor'. The other factors are of course how the way the light is transmitted, and that's why I prefer projectors still, but that's a separate discussion.


Back to music - rarely do people complain that real life non-amplified music is fatiguing right?

If you have heard a truly well balanced system, it will sound very natural despite all the high resolution and details. You can then just pick what music fits your mood, and the loudness you want to play at.. just play it lower if it's meant for background.. but having said that, trying to alter the way we listen means that we aren't really listening the way the artiste wanted us to do so.

This balance is achieved not by buying equipment (though matching helps), but by careful arrangement and set up of the whole system.


To give you a funny example - my AK120II's decay and resonance of instruments is affected when I put on some plastic protectors onto the back and sides of the device. While it is a relatively small change, the perception of how we hear the sound is then affected in a way that makes me feel the music is more closed in, slightly more rushed, etc and not natural.

To achieve real balance, we need to pay attention to all the small things.. as another example, I find that FLAC changes the timbre or tone of the sound and is not acceptable to me at all.

All these also depends on how particular you are and how perceptive are you.. back to food analogy, an amateur will probably only be able to say if the food is good or not, and may be willing to accept more compromise especially if you've not tasted better. Only when you are seasoned, will you know if something is off, and only the veterans will be able to precisely tell you what is wrong - e.g. marinated too long by 10 seconds.

 

[Noirkw]

I disagree on the issue that Audio GD should be avoided. My own experience with their Compass 2 and the discontinued 'FUN' model left me largely impressed at its SQ. The Compass 2 is an excellent DAC/AMP hybrid which I would highly recommend for a mid range "all in 1" box. Aesthetics wise of course it doesn't look appealing, but Audio GD is a fully discrete system with Qing Hwa designing each model on his own as opposed to just filling in OPamps and hoping listeners can't tell the difference (Dark Star )

Granted, I have not heard his "Diamond Difference output" stage on the master series but he is extremely transparent on his designs and allow them in full view on his website. So as long as anyone with at least an engineering background could "decipher" his products. You don't get that very often.

So what if he produces a billion products a year? As long as it gets better each time, why not? If you purchase a product, obviously its going to depreciate and have an "upgrade" sooner or later.


Then again I'm pretty happy with my Uber'd Bifrost. It's serving well and extremely enjoyable each time. Music is all about listening pleasure, after all, not the technological "my rig is more expensive than yours" chase.

 

[sky37]

Just enjoy the music

 

[dqwong]

I think so far the reviews/feedback of the latest audio gd 2013/2014 line has been very favorable on headfi and other review sites.

Well let's just see how the audio gd master 7 will turn out to be. So far my emails have been promptly reply and they are very honest and upfront on their product. The master 7 look pretty similar in chassis layout to esoteric audio where the power supply is separated and each channel has its own pcb.

 

[dqwong]

This is interesting: it takes 24hours for a DAC to reach it's stability(jitter wise).

Cold — At startup, we see at 1Hz, a dBc (decibels relative to the carrier signal) of -73. However, notice the spike from 6Hz to 11Hz. There is a significant rise in phase noise within this range. Also notice how ragged the response is from 1Hz to 100Hz. This volatility will have effects on the DAC chip’s ability to recreate an accurate waveform. Jitter is measured at 3.7pSeconds.
15 Minutes — Here we begin to see a slight drop in noise at 1Hz (-.8dBc), as well as a reduction of the cold-related spike (6Hz to 11Hz). Things appear as though they’re about to begin tracking nicely. Jitter is measured at 1.4pSeconds.

1 Hour — We begin to see the settling process occur. The measured performance takes a significant turn for the worse. At 1Hz, phase noise has risen by 11dBc. However, the good news is that the initial spike from 6 to 11Hz has not returned. But overall, we are seeing a much noisier signal. Additionally, notice that the response is more ragged than it was when tested in the 15-minute range. This will have a very negative impact on the DAC’s ability to output an accurate (and pleasant) musical signal. Jitter has risen significantly to 5.7pSeconds.

24 Hours — At this point and beyond, the DAC appears to have reached a stasis. Notice that the response is now very stable, that there is a smooth line from 1Hz all the way out to 1kHz. At its greatest point, the delta in phase noise has improved by 17.2dBc over the initial cold test. We can now begin to critically listen to this DAC, confident that our findings will be accurate and illuminating. Jitter is dropped and settled at an astonishingly low level of 0.85pSeconds.

Audio-based jitter is most accurately measured from 1Hz to 100Hz range. This is where averaging cannot correct or hide errors as easily as it does at say 1KHz. Ironically, most published jitter measurements are given at this frequency range.

How does a high level of phase noise affect our music? While it’s hard to draw a simple conclusion that will apply to all DACs, it’s absolutely clear that higher levels of phase noise create higher levels of jitter. And higher levels of jitter correlate to poor sound; the more jitter, the worse the sound.

If you’re auditioning a new DAC – whether for personal purchase, store merchandise, or critical review – be patient and give that contestant a day to warm up, so that it can truly strut its stuff.

AudioQuest White Paper: Evaluation of Digital Devices and Proper Warm-Up for Ideal Listening and Measurements | AudioStream

 

[weng]

So just leave the dac on 24/7

 

[bangdoll]

Interesting but I already know liao

 

[derazor]

Maybe bypass digital, listen to vinyl will not have such issues haha