IDA or NCS

Cryophoenix

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Which company would be better to work in? (Remuneration, benefits, salary, work culture and etcetra) Anyone with experiences in these two companies?

Assuming graduate with bachelor's degree.
 

seesiang

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It depend on your goal.

NCS is more like System Integrator.
IDA is more like End User Environment.

Switching between End User Environment and System Integrator (Vice Versa) will have culture shock.

More readings for SI can be found in google or a brief one at below
What is systems integrator (SI)? - Definition from WhatIs.com

Remuneration: Both
Benefits: End User (as SI tend to be Contract)
Salary: Same as remuneration
Work culture: End User

One pointer that you missed, experience gained. SI will give you wider exposure than End User.

There are alot of factors to be consider, like who is fighting with you for the position, what are your trump cards, how urgent the company want the position to be fill, what are your connections and blah blah blah.
 
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It depend on your goal.

NCS is more like System Integrator.
IDA is more like End User Environment.

Switching between End User Environment and System Integrator (Vice Versa) will have culture shock.

More readings for SI can be found in google or a brief one at below
What is systems integrator (SI)? - Definition from WhatIs.com

Remuneration: Both
Benefits: End User (as SI tend to be Contract)
Salary: Same as remuneration
Work culture: End User

One pointer that you missed, experience gained. SI will give you wider exposure than End User.

There are alot of factors to be consider, like who is fighting with you for the position, what are your trump cards, how urgent the company want the position to be fill, what are your connections and blah blah blah.


Not true. You see diff things in end user. You understand the business flow, full picture of what is happening. In SI, you see what you are involved, usually it's jusT a small part of the big picture.
 

seesiang

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Not true. You see diff things in end user. You understand the business flow, full picture of what is happening. In SI, you see what you are involved, usually it's jusT a small part of the big picture.

When person A join end user, person A understand the business flow. Those work longer than person A in the same company, will understand the business flow better than person A. When person A change job, the business work flow will vary between different end user companies. Even if Companies are using framework, there are more than 1 framework. Even Companies using same framework, those small details tend to be overwritten by X reasons and their culture.

When it come to new assignment or project, end user did have an end to end process. Vendor will be the one for deployment. End user will supervise.

Do you think SI just aware of a small part of the big picture and not understanding what is happening?
 

koxinga

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The replies are not wrong but fails to consider what TS's intended role is.

For the record, IDA is hiring is graduate developers/ux designers and is growing their development arm significantly. The latest Municipal app was developed mostly inhouse.

I understand IDA's development arm is like most shops now, agile/TDD methodology, using open source tools like GitHub, js etc. So good training group as well.
 
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alvinaloy

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IDA is not exactly end-user. IDA is freaking huge. They do have departments that does work that's no different from SI. They have departments that formulate and enforce policies across the entire civil service. They have departments that manage vendors to deliver services back to gov. Etc etc.

What you see in SI or end-user all depends on what level you're at and how much you willing to learn. In SI, you have a chance to see across domains, e.g. FSI, FMCG, engineering companies, real estate, etc. You have chances to come in contact with different different technologies depending on the companies the SI supports. Whereas when you're in end-user, you only know the domain you're in, you only know the technology that your company invested in.

There's no one that's better than the other. It all depends on your preference because as mentioned, the culture is generally very different between SI and end-user.
 

koxinga

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But based on TS's question, he is also interested in areas such as remuneration and benefits.

I would say that remuneration in IDA is reasonable, especially for those moving from their first job (probably 3 - 5 years experience). It would also be particularly beneficial, especially having the opportunity to practice other areas of IT, such as governance and policy, which you won't have a chance in an SI. As IDA's role is also regulatory and industry development, again, you have chance to work in completely different fields.

The usual government benefits, but promotion is slow (like all governments). :s13:
 

alvinaloy

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Just be prepared for crap work... I have a friend whose last straw was that he had to create a presentation to his bosses, on why he should create a presentation to present to their big bosses...
 
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seesiang

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The content on my discussion is on SI and end user. It may be slight track from TS intention. The content is also not on NCS or IDA.

it seem to be a thin grey line between end user and SI, the matter of fact is that it is not. If any one have vast experiences working in both environment, they can judge easily.

One more fact, there are end user evolving to SI + end user and I seem a handful in the market. But still, it is easy to differentiate within the same company.

This debate require the person to have a strong understanding on SI and end user, if not, it is Apple vs Orange situation. There will be no outcome.

I am here to share what I have been through. If any one intention is to win the debate, they are most welcome to be the winner. But who will ultimately benefit and win the situation, think harder.
 

Cryophoenix

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Thanks for the detailed replies!

I've seen the word "culture" mentioned a lot in earlier posts. What are the differences in culture between end user and SI environments?

For example a system analyst in end user versus a system analyst in SI.
 

Peanut38

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I come with experience in both SI and End-user environments.

My experience so far as below,

Culture:
SI = U are the vendor, pace and pressure is higher. There are deadlines which u must meet or else the customer or ur boss will pressure u in order to meet. Working OT or over weekends is not uncommon. If ur in a middle management position, u will have to fight for manpower resources to deliver project. As an System Analyst in the SI, most likely u will be involved in many projects of different companies.

End-User = Pressure and culture will be slightly better than SI. You are usually the customer, u have to push the vendor to pass you the deliverables on time. U will need to track ur own timeline closely as you may have to answer to your users/stakeholders. Most users or stakeholders will be ur own colleagues in the company.
 

seawyk

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When person A join end user, person A understand the business flow. Those work longer than person A in the same company, will understand the business flow better than person A. When person A change job, the business work flow will vary between different end user companies. Even if Companies are using framework, there are more than 1 framework. Even Companies using same framework, those small details tend to be overwritten by X reasons and their culture.

When it come to new assignment or project, end user did have an end to end process. Vendor will be the one for deployment. End user will supervise.

Do you think SI just aware of a small part of the big picture and not understanding what is happening?

Good reply. End of the day regardless of whether you are in a SI or end user environment, it all boils down to attitude. With the correct attitude, you will learn things regardless of where you work. Who is to say what you have learnt is good or bad, can be used or irrelevant? These are answers no one can answer but yourself. End of the day, you learn you benefit

Having said that, i have spent my entire IT career in a SI environment. Faster pace, higher stress and more exposure to new technologies and diverse backgrounds and environments. Learnings in SI environments are usually at an accelerated pace as compared to end users
 

alvinaloy

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I come with experience in both SI and End-user environments.

My experience so far as below,

Culture:
SI = U are the vendor, pace and pressure is higher. There are deadlines which u must meet or else the customer or ur boss will pressure u in order to meet. Working OT or over weekends is not uncommon. If ur in a middle management position, u will have to fight for manpower resources to deliver project. As an System Analyst in the SI, most likely u will be involved in many projects of different companies.

End-User = Pressure and culture will be slightly better than SI. You are usually the customer, u have to push the vendor to pass you the deliverables on time. U will need to track ur own timeline closely as you may have to answer to your users/stakeholders. Most users or stakeholders will be ur own colleagues in the company.

I have been in both as well. I wouldn't say one is better than another.

SI = Tends to be more streamlined because cost is an important factor. They tend to have more processes in place and more structured environment. If you like structure and hate chaos, you'll like SI. Everyone here competes for budget. Cost-cutting is a way of life.

End-user = Chaos reigns. Nothing matters except making money for the business. Tends to have more money to throw around except they tend to waste a lot of silly money buying this buying that when those things don't help at all. Sometimes takes more time (and money) to come to the same conclusion as SIs simply because they are chaotic. Good end-user companies are few and far between.
 

Dhalsim

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When person A join end user, person A understand the business flow. Those work longer than person A in the same company, will understand the business flow better than person A. When person A change job, the business work flow will vary between different end user companies. Even if Companies are using framework, there are more than 1 framework. Even Companies using same framework, those small details tend to be overwritten by X reasons and their culture.

When it come to new assignment or project, end user did have an end to end process. Vendor will be the one for deployment. End user will supervise.

Do you think SI just aware of a small part of the big picture and not understanding what is happening?


It is obvious that this reply came from someone who is experienced with SI and End user environments :bandit:
 

colgate

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For Fresh Grad, I would NOT advise working in IDA. This is my experience comin from multiple IT Vendor and End User Environment.

No doubt IDA is a major IT govt agency, it does not however lend you the necessary industry, technical and real-world IT experience. In short, you cannot get mileage and exposure out of IDA. You can only become a minuscule part of a big big bureaucratic process. The longer you stay, the more Ivory Tower you might become. Also without experience you cannot progress within IDA. And when you do look for jobs outside of IDA, employers will simply cite your lack of actual IT Experience. This is when you realize all that Helicopter Views you had in IDA are irrelevant in the real commercial IT world, where Skills-First and Netowork Relationships matter a lot.

For NCS, being in a vendor environment would definately give you a well-rounded exposure as an IT Service Provider. You will know real-world IT and whats it like to "Making IT Happen". The project delivery experience and networking opportunities with Distributors, Principals and Service Provider are crucial and very beneficial to helping you understand what real-world IT is all about.

So do you want to become an IT Industry Veteran, or do you want to be a Civil Servant? U decide.

Cheers
 
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davidktw

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For Fresh Grad, I would NOT advise working in IDA. This is my experience comin from multiple IT Vendor and End User Environment.

No doubt IDA is a major IT govt agency, it does not however lend you the necessary industry, technical and real-world IT experience. In short, you cannot get mileage and exposure out of IDA. You can only become a minuscule part of a big big bureaucratic process. The longer you stay, the more Ivory Tower you might become. Also without experience you cannot progress within IDA. And when you do look for jobs outside of IDA, employers will simply cite your lack of actual IT Experience. This is when you realize all that Helicopter Views you had in IDA are irrelevant in the real commercial IT world, where Skills-First and Netowork Relationships matter a lot.

For NCS, being in a vendor environment would definately give you a well-rounded exposure as an IT Service Provider. You will know real-world IT and whats it like to "Making IT Happen". The project delivery experience and networking opportunities with Distributors, Principals and Service Provider are crucial and very beneficial to helping you understand what real-world IT is all about.

So do you want to become an IT Industry Veteran, or do you want to be a Civil Servant? U decide.

Cheers

2nd on this opinion. Having working for more than a decade in the SI environment and dealing with numerous EUs from various enterprises between the private and public sectors, including IDA, I can tell you you will learn a lot more from the vendor perspective.

There is a reason why the SI environment is more hectic, because SI get the work done, and SI need to comply with industrial and customer requirements, and a lot of time you will really get a good laugh over some customers' requirements, with a good pack of frustration of course.

That is not the say EU is a bad place, but you have to know what you are pursuing in your career and how long do you intend to stay at what level doing what.

If technical skill set if what you are pursuing, the EU will be the least favourable choice. You will want to be thrown into the fire when you are younger compared to when you are older. You will also want to have a taste of the difficulties and pitfalls and caveats of the IT industry when dealing with clients before you transcend to be one yourself managing the vendors. You need to learn what to expect from the vendors how to size them up. The best way to learn that is to be one yourself.

There are always ample time for one to get involved with the bureaucratic mess, but there is only limited window in your career where you can make significant sacrifices in terms of health, time and effort to go beyond the call of duty to learn.

:)
 
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