HWZ Forums

Login Register FAQ Mark Forums Read

Ketogenic diets are, however, a well-established way to help control Type 2 diabetes

Like Tree17Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 15-10-2018, 12:46 PM   #211
Senior Member
 
rawtuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,012
My lunch... $2.70 from sph staff canteen.


Sent from HUAWEI CLT-L29 using GAGT
rawtuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 12:52 PM   #212
Supremacy Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,384
Kaypohchee, this is not rubbish... and I am a living example.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/02/0...n-the-kidneys/
High animal/plant protein is fine in healthy adults
but not for those afflicted with kidney problems as they need lower proteins

I personally choose not to believe Vegan Propaganda coming esp from sickly looking malnourished Greger n other plant based advocates like Walter Willett ...nutritionfacts.org is pro plant-based !

To me it is just inconceivable/illogical to choose an inferior nutrient-deficient way of eating - we are not herbivores with our stomach teeth etc structure ...

It is also my contention that the epidermics today came about from the unhealthy HCLF orthodox/guidelines etc n PUFA oil usage + too frequent eating multiple times a day - it is undisputed that the metabolic syndrome patients show improvements/even reverse/are in remission on well-formulated LC/LCHF way of eating

I feel too any benefits from going vegan are short term (by cutting out CRAP etc) as surely the eventual harm will surface after years - so many of the so-called LCHF Charlatans were FORMER Vegans themselves

My polyclinic doc who practices LCHF himself is very happy with my LC woe (=way of eating) n results n tells me to Carry On with my LC woe for both mom (where possible as she is higher Carb than me) n me

Last edited by kaypohchee; 15-10-2018 at 01:33 PM..
kaypohchee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 12:53 PM   #213
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,121
Where is the personal attack ??

You can't even differentiate between the Ad Hominems from gkhchay YL mummy1234 etc etc
I do agree that YL and Gkhchay had trolled you before. But me and lurkerdoc have been trying to reason with you on facts.

You have explained your act of not replying to Lurkerdoc due to
When the "court" or "jury" in edmw here
Is no different from our own leader's
"Ownself clear ownself etc "


Isn't this exactly "when you can't win on facts, you attack the person."

Anyway, you know very well what I am talking about, just like the rest of EDWMers. Case closed.
binbinpon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 01:22 PM   #214
Arch-Supremacy Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,498
Kaypohchee, this is not rubbish... and I am a living example.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/02/0...n-the-kidneys/
While I’m not a vegan, I do acknowledge the merits of a vegan or vegetarian diet.

I have a very good friend & old classmate: he had 2 heart attacks after which he decided to go on a mostly vegetarian diet, taking meat only very occasionally.

Now his lipid profile is ok & his health has improved tremendously; his statins are down to the lowest dosage & his cardiologist at SGH is happy.

So as long as you stick to what your doctor & dietician tell you & what you’re eating works for your health that’s all that matters.

But of course this doesn’t apply to KPC who obviously doesn’t believe in mainstream medicine & only believes in the rubbish that her LCHF online charlatans preach.
gkhchay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #215
Supremacy Member
 
yonglimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 8,613
Where is the personal attack ??

You can't even differentiate between the Ad Hominems from gkhchay YL mummy1234 etc etc[
playing the victim's card again?....

you are using a public forum to perpetuate your lies and misinformation.........therefore anyone here have the right to call you out especially when your misinformation and deceptions may cause harm to other people's well-being here....

it is not personal attack that i label you a fake LC crusader.....juz calling a spade a spade...
__________________
.
KARMA is when one has no offspring to 送终 when she uplorry...LOL
.

Last edited by yonglimm; 15-10-2018 at 02:22 PM..
yonglimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:16 PM   #216
Supremacy Member
 
yonglimm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 8,613
My lunch... $2.70 from sph staff canteen.


Sent from HUAWEI CLT-L29 using GAGT
The vege in econ rice stalls are usually overcooked...and they add too much salt and seasoning.....and it is very oily too......

My trick when i got no time to cook lunch in the morning is to just boil or steam 2 vege (like brocolli, asparagus..etc etc)at home and bring it to the office.....come lunch i will order rice or porridge + 2 vege...then mix my 2 homecooked vege in.....in this way i am cutting down the salt and oil by about 50% as well as having 50% more nutritious vege that is not overcooked.......

juz to share my cheapo lifehack....
__________________
.
KARMA is when one has no offspring to 送终 when she uplorry...LOL
.
yonglimm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:25 PM   #217
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 685
While I’m not a vegan, I do acknowledge the merits of a vegan or vegetarian diet.

I have a very good friend & old classmate: he had 2 heart attacks after which he decided to go on a mostly vegetarian diet, taking meat only very occasionally.

Now his lipid profile is ok & his health has improved tremendously; his statins are down to the lowest dosage & his cardiologist at SGH is happy.

So as long as you stick to what your doctor & dietician tell you & what you’re eating works for your health that’s all that matters.

But of course this doesn’t apply to KPC who obviously doesn’t believe in mainstream medicine & only believes in the rubbish that her LCHF online charlatans preach.
Regarding "sticking to doc and dietician advice on diet", i think KPC has already mentioned several times that her polyclinic doc "tells her to carry on" her current LC diet. So she does have someone from government polyclinic supporting what she is doing.

High animal/plant protein is fine in healthy adults
but not for those afflicted with kidney problems as they need lower proteins

I personally choose not to believe Vegan Propaganda coming esp from sickly looking malnourished Greger n other plant based advocates like Walter Willett ...nutritionfacts.org is pro plant-based !

To me it is just inconceivable/illogical to choose an inferior nutrient-deficient way of eating - we are not herbivores with our stomach teeth etc structure ...

It is also my contention that the epidermics today came about from the unhealthy HCLF orthodox/guidelines etc n PUFA oil usage + too frequent eating multiple times a day - it is undisputed that the metabolic syndrome patients show improvements/even reverse/are in remission on well-formulated LC/LCHF way of eating

I feel too any benefits from going vegan are short term (by cutting out CRAP etc) as surely the eventual harm will surface after years - so many of the so-called LCHF Charlatans were FORMER Vegans themselves

My polyclinic doc who practices LCHF himself is very happy with my LC woe (=way of eating) n results n tells me to Carry On with my LC woe for both mom (where possible as she is higher Carb than me) n me
Just want to point out:
1. Our dental morphology clearly shows we are more herbivore/ omnivore than we are carnivore. (Molar teeth, lack of big canine) Our alimentary canal are designed for plant based diet more than animal based diet. (Very long intestine compared to shorter intestine of carnivore)

2. Pleade present evidence that long term plant based diet have detrimental effects on health. You are pushing a very radical idea here while millions of people practise plant based diet for centuries. So you do need to backup your statement.

3. Meat is indeed more nutrient dense compared to plant. But nutrient dense doesnt equal to best/more efficient/superior for health. Eg. Coal is more energy dense compared to natural gas. But we still choose to use natural gas for cooking at home and not using coal. Because burning natural gas actually turn out to be cleaner and more efficient than coal.

Sent from Samsung SM-G955F using GAGT

Last edited by ljohn78; 15-10-2018 at 02:30 PM..
ljohn78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:39 PM   #218
Senior Member
 
rawtuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,012
The vege in econ rice stalls are usually overcooked...and they add too much salt and seasoning.....and it is very oily too......

My trick when i got no time to cook lunch in the morning is to just boil or steam 2 vege (like brocolli, asparagus..etc etc)at home and bring it to the office.....come lunch i will order rice or porridge + 2 vege...then mix my 2 homecooked vege in.....in this way i am cutting down the salt and oil by about 50% as well as having 50% more nutritious vege that is not overcooked.......

juz to share my cheapo lifehack....
This staff canteen, the vege are usually undercooked, they use too much oil and too much seasoning. No choice, just anyhow eat. Maybe i will ask my wife to prepare one more portion of her healthy salad for my daily lunch.
rawtuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:42 PM   #219
Senior Member
 
rawtuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,012
Regarding "sticking to doc and dietician advice on diet", i think KPC has already mentioned several times that her polyclinic doc "tells her to carry on" her current LC diet. So she does have someone from government polyclinic supporting what she is doing.

...

Sent from Samsung SM-G955F using GAGT
That is because she cheat the blood test by controlling her food intake weeks prior to blood test date. If she were to made wearing a Libre sensor, i bet her blood glucose reading will show all the crazy highs during her liberal LC.
rawtuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:14 PM   #220
Supremacy Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,384
That is because she cheat the blood test by controlling her food intake weeks prior to blood test date. If she were to made wearing a Libre sensor, i bet her blood glucose reading will show all the crazy highs during her liberal LC.
I STILL got pretty good blood test readings even BEFORE I embarked on my little experiment with the Dave Feldman Protocol which was only for the 3 DAYS prior to the blood test - to eat even MORE Fat/calories in DIRECT opposition to controlling with a CLEAN(ER) LCLF way of eating which was what I try to do in the midst of the unhealthy PUFA oils with Hawker Food and Cheat Meals etc given my circumstances/limitations etc there ....

If you want to call this cheating so be it
As I was doing the exact opposite of orthodox LF advice here
By simply doing 3 days of Higher Fat [than normal days] just to prove a point on cholesterol - that Higher Dietary Fat/Cholesterol does NOT lead to high serum cholesterol (ie the Great Cholesterol Con)
At the end of the day I really feel that cholesterol isn't a good marker at all

I feel that my daily IF or Intermittent Fasting really helps in getting good readings too
Should have much smaller/shorter spikes with the smaller Eating Window etc
I haven't read Jason Fung in depth - so can't offer my own explanations on this - go to the IDM Blog to read yourself
kaypohchee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:20 PM   #221
Arch-Supremacy Member
 
RedRedWine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,414
Dont believe in this full meat diet....lor what not
__________________
你给我一个爱的监牢 用思念作一副手铐
RedRedWine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:28 PM   #222
Senior Member
 
rawtuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,012
Just took this reading... I ate a handful of red grapes for teabreak at 3:20pm.


Sent from HUAWEI CLT-L29 using GAGT
rawtuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:30 PM   #223
Supremacy Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,384
Regarding "sticking to doc and dietician advice on diet", i think KPC has already mentioned several times that her polyclinic doc "tells her to carry on" her current LC diet. So she does have someone from government polyclinic supporting what she is doing.


Just want to point out:
1. Our dental morphology clearly shows we are more herbivore/ omnivore than we are carnivore. (Molar teeth, lack of big canine) Our alimentary canal are designed for plant based diet more than animal based diet. (Very long intestine compared to shorter intestine of carnivore)

2. Pleade present evidence that long term plant based diet have detrimental effects on health. You are pushing a very radical idea here while millions of people practise plant based diet for centuries. So you do need to backup your statement.

3. Meat is indeed more nutrient dense compared to plant. But nutrient dense doesnt equal to best/more efficient/superior for health. Eg. Coal is more energy dense compared to natural gas. But we still choose to use natural gas for cooking at home and not using coal. Because burning natural gas actually turn out to be cleaner and more efficient than coal.

Sent from Samsung SM-G955F using GAGT
1. We are omnivores and meat-eating too
(I love my fruit and some salads etc )

2. Pls go to the numerous posts found in my Vegan Propaganda thread or to the YT pages on this - there'll be LOTS of Former Vegans commenting - no shortage of N=1s there telling how taking meat again DRASTICALLY improved health esp autoimmune diseases psoriasis eczema etc etc etc
Is it any wonder that vegan Indians have high record levels of diabetics etc too ?

3. Go read Sally Pacholak etc on the downfalls of a No Meat diet
Meat contains EVERYTHING esp B12 etc that we need not Plants
kaypohchee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:37 PM   #224
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 795
Still waiting for KPC to reply.

But she seems more interested in chasing after petty feuds instead rather than addressing constructive criticism.

Quoting my post for her ease of reading:

Against better judgment, I will offer my input purely for your benefit.

It's just impossible to please everyone
So I might as well stick to my preferred style

Just SKIP & Ignore MY posts (like testerjp claimed he did) should your Hate for WOTs be stronger than possibly any desire to glean new/alternative info shared from my tweet/etc reading !
Most of the more serious posters on these health related threads are not averse to reading walls of text. However, it is one thing when the wall of text is a cogent and well formulated argument, vs a multitude of disjointed tweets interspersed by single-lined comments, with no logical head or tail.

I will try my very best to put Spoilers for those posts that are not in my own threads - suggest you switch over to HWZ from GAGT (for the Spoilers to be effective at much-less-scrolling as less finger/thumb exercise for you )
See above. Again, a properly formulated and articulated argument does not tend to switch people off. People only try to speed through if whole chunks make no sense.

As for MY own-started threads it would be great if the WOT-Haters & KPC-Attackers were to PLS STAY OUT - TQ very much !
That would conserve my precious energy & time too !
Speaking for myself, I can't be assed these days. But I have decided, against better judgment, to make another attempt at kindness.

Posting WOTs DO have their specific uses and benefits
Laying out ALL there as-is and not 'my own' possibly slanted etc summaries or gist etc
I prefer to share the tweets as-is as some have their rather amusing nuances clever irony etc which would be LOST in summaries/gist !
Essentially confirming your astounding lack of communicative precision. Copy pasting is merely the easy way out. Mirroring your half-hearted attempt at living a properly low carb lifestyle, you are too lazy to formulate a proper argument. Even if I were to hypothetically concede that there is no problem with the message (there is), there certainly is a problem with the messenger.

Otherwise the LCHF-Haters & KPC-Attackers like binbinpon etc
WILL choose to focus on only certain [his slanted] portions in the link contents to suit HIS personal agenda (including utterly ridiculous interpretations etc etc)
Are you not guilty of focusing only on certain portions of whatever contents so many of us have posted? Suggest you re-read all my old posts on your own thread, then re-read your own responses to them and do some self reflection. Most of us started out on a civil note in our dialogue with you, attempting to provide holistic and well rounded replies, only to grow tired of your constant cherry picking.

Speaking of which, here I am doing a point by point response to you. And nothing less than a complete, point by point and succinct response by you will prompt any further input from me.

Do read the FULL contents in that Case Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523335/
I suspect you yourself have not read the full contents in that case study. And even if you have, you clearly do not know how to interpret it, nor do you understand its role in the overall body of evidence.

Even though other unknown metabolic pathways and mechanisms may have been involved, it is still unlikely that this patient would have avoided dialysis if his diet had not been changed. This is suggestive of a causal relationship between the diet and the course of the patient's kidney disease.
Even in the article you yourself present, you have chosen to cherry pick. I have told you before that every single WORD (let alone whole sentences) in a medical paper is placed there for a specific reason and meaning.

Why did you exclude the first few sentences of this paragraph? Because it essentially reaffirms what binbinpon is saying? Let me include it on your behalf:

"It may be assumed that improved glycemic control as well as weight loss contributed to stabilization of the patient's kidney function. The actual mechanisms behind the course of the patient's kidney disease are not known, however, and it cannot be excluded that other metabolic changes have contributed to the improvement of the renal function independently of weight loss."

Even the article's authors themselves have the sense not to put their necks on the line and say that the low carb diet is THE reason why his renal function stabilized. They stop short at postulating.

In addition, a low-carbohydrate diet with ad libitum food intake has been shown to be superior to the traditional calorie-restricted, low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet for weight loss in five randomised controlled studies [17-21]. The primary effect is caused by a lowering of appetite and a caloric intake reduced to the appropriate level for the patient's height [22].
First, some context. This paragraph (and the 2 that follow it) comes from the "discussion" segment of the case report. Here, the authors are providing their interpretation of how the case panned out, essentially formulating a hypothesis. Hypotheses DO NOT equate to proof/gospel truth.

Both me and binbinpon (and I suspect posters like xerref and gkhchay) are more than capable of dissecting the weakness of this argument. I can even go in depth into the 5 RCTs referenced if you so wish. But to cut to the chase, the 5 studies were low powered, short term and poorly designed.

The protein content of a diet may be a concern, but the actual size of the effect of protein restriction is modest [23,24].
References 23 and 24 -- extremely outdated. [23] is a very small smaple size, short term RCT that is 24 years old -- practically prehistoric. [24] is even smaller in sample size, and even shorter in duration. I can easily find you newer, larger population, better conducted RCTs and even meta-analyses/systematic reviews to argue about the benefits of protein restriction.

It is also a misconception that a low-carbohydrate diet automatically is high in protein. This misconception may be a barrier for the use of a low-carbohydrate diet which is a highly effective tool in the management of type 2 diabetes. Such a diet can be modified so it suits the patient's needs i.e. the energy from carbohydrates can be replaced by energy from dietary fat and not necessarily from protein. The patient here was given a number of meal recipes at start. The aim was to give him the means to learn how to use this new dietary tool, which in essence leads to a completely different mind-set regarding diet. He was then recommended to consume about 70–90 g low-starch carbohydrates per day and to eat more fat. The patient is today still keeping the carbohydrates at the recommended level. He eats more fat and probably about 80–90 g of protein per day.
This is correct, but not useful to the argument in the context of low carb presumably favoring CKD. It is merely a description of the process.

A motivating factor, in addition to being able to see that the kidney function has stabilized, was probably the increased feeling of well-being that followed very soon after the dietary change. Within 1–2 weeks of the dietary change – before any significant weight reduction had occurred – poor sleep and chronic fatigue was exchanged for a sound sleep pattern and increased vitality. This effect soon allowed the patient to again involve himself wholly in the running of his company. The reversal of the tiredness seen with chronic hyperglycemia may have been the cause. It may be that reversal of carbohydrate-induced memory impairment in type 2 diabetes played a role in restoring the patient's alertness and self-confidence [25 ]."
Again, postulating here, and the authors themselves do not use definitive terms to suggest that low carb is THE cause. I repeat, hypotheses do not equate to fact.

I ask you

For those doing LC/LCHF on a proper well-formulated woe plan ie the majority of the ordinary sensible ones with common sense etc - isn't it taken-for-granted as a matter of fact that you WILL eat less calories when you switch over to healthy Fat n Proteins in your reduction of Carbs - doesn't it follow naturally that you WILL also lose weight if the more LC you are eg if on 70-90 g carbs/day [don't go for his Smoke Screen extreme example ] ie isn't weightloss just 1 of the several benefits seen with the switch to eating LC/LCHF ????
No, it is not a matter of fact. I have seen people gain weight on LC. I have seen people gorge themselves on LC. As a matter of fact, your favorite Dr Google can tell you the same. I have told you before that if you only search for the successes of LC, all you will see is a skewed picture. Go Google for people who've been failed by LC/keto/atkins blablabla. They exist.

ALSO in many cases IMPROVEMENTS in markers were observed WELL BEFORE any weight loss was seen too after the change to such a proper sensible LC Woe !!!!
You wanna back this statement up with some proper evidence? Spare me your walls of tweets. They are neither evidence nor proper.

binbinpon is trying EXTREMELY hard to say the Renal Improvement was due SOLELY to the Weightloss from Caloric Reduction instead

He simply REFUSES to acknowledge that it was the LC Woe that brought about all the benefits in that case

Being a proper Case Study it was necessary to provide more details on the LC woe including exact macro ratios/g and calories too [found in a proper sensible well-formulated LC Eating Plan]

I find all his TWISTING etc simply ridiculous & wasting my precious time with the unending rebuttals etc !
Binbinpon's post states absolutely nothing of that sort. He is pointing out that weight loss and caloric restriction is a confounder in judging the effects of LC in this case. Go read it again without your eyes of bias. I will quote the relevant section of his post for your perusal once more:

"So study concluded Lchf helps nephropathy when there was a strong confounding factor of caloric restriction with weight loss element which helps in obese renal patients regardless of carb intake. I repeat again, It is only fair to conclude LCHF diet helps in reversing nephropathy if benefits are seen without caloric restriction and weight loss."

And for the umpteenth time, even the authors themselves do not dare say that "the LC Woe" brought about "ALL THE BENEFITS". You are making a conclusion that the authors have not drawn.

binbinpon should also read my post at https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/e...6-post168.html
Explains why Prof Walter Willet [the Ancel Keyes of 2018] of Harvard is such a hypocritical vegan and not to be trusted at all esp in HIS studies & research such as binbinpon's favourite ARIC Study.... [coming after the demolished Spanish Study]
Who told you Walter Willett is a vegan? Your twitterverse? Willett himself has said on record that he eats meat. And once more you fail to understand binbinpon's interpretation of ARIC, while expounding on the virtues of PURE. Oh, the irony.

To repeat myself earlier, nothing less than a complete, point by point and succinct response by you will prompt any further input from me.
Lurkerdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 03:37 PM   #225
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 125
:By simply doing 3 days of Higher Fat [than normal days] just to prove a point on cholesterol - that Higher Dietary Fat/Cholesterol does NOT lead to high serum cholesterol (ie the Great Cholesterol Con)
At the end of the day I really feel that cholesterol isn't a good marker at all


Firstly playing with own health to prove a point is not a wise thing to do.

Secondly, just 3 days is enough to rebut a finding that has been established throughs years of rigorous studies and testing? That is gullible. If that works, all credible scientists or medical researchers would have done that. No need to pump in so much money and effort. Then every 3 days can just publish a paper and every now and then get awards. You think human life is so worthless and can be treated so haphazardly.

I think a patient will freak out if his doc were to tell him to go for a treatment that is casually carried out for just 3 days.


Posted from PCWX using My Intellectual Brain

Last edited by tamchiakngeow; 15-10-2018 at 03:40 PM..
tamchiakngeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Terms of Service for more information.


Thread Tools

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On