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Ketogenic diets are, however, a well-established way to help control Type 2 diabetes

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Old 13-10-2018, 12:45 AM   #121
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the key to this case report (n=1) which was not highlighted by KPC was

"To ease the transition the patient was supplied with a number of meal recipes suggesting a caloric restriction to about 1800 calories per day...... 6 months later his bodyweight had decreased by 19 kg."


The article went on to discuss "Beneficial effect of weight loss in proteinuric nephropathy has been shown in a controlled study [12]. A weight reduction of about 25 kg in an overweight diabetes patient after gastric by-pass lowered the proteinuria by 84 % and after further weight loss led to normalisation of a slightly elevated creatinine [13]"

So is it truly low carb or the weight loss with caloric restriction that reverses the nephropathy??? Maybe both or maybe not? Weight loss will help renal patients, regardless of carb intake.

Since you like to talk about biases and confounders ... and this is such a blatant one. This is no different from a case of smoker taking anti-hypertensives has his BP lowered, and the conclusion is smoking helps to reduce BP.

It is only fair to conclude LCHF diet helps in reversing nephropathy if benefits are seen without caloric restriction and weight loss. That is why this study conclusion is so skewed. At least the author only dare to say "may", our KPC said "Is".

Now KPC this is teaching you how to critically analyse an article, so that people will take you more seriously in future.
You don't want WOTs so I was compelled to only post the Abstract & the Conclusion here
I DID say to read DIRECTLY from the link or to go my Home Cooking thread post with the WHOLE replicated WOT Case Study there !

Well I would say MY perception of THE key to the Case Study isn't your above highlighted in blue but rather this instead which was BEFORE your SKEWED Biased portion in THAT Same 4th Para there !!!!

Under Case Report 3rd-5th Paras

"Insulin treatment was started four months later resulting in a temporary improvement of HbA1c but an increase in bodyweight. One year later, his BMI was 32.5 kg/m2 and his weight was 94 kg. The insulin dose was lowered in order to avoid further increase in bodyweight. In the years 1998–1999, following the weight increase and despite improved glycemic control, his BP increased to an average 145/90 mm Hg. Likewise, urine albumin increased as seen in the Figure. In 2000, despite a still reasonable glycemic control but following further weight increase, the albuminuria reached an average of more than 2000 mg/l and the BP was 160/90 mm Hg. Both were controlled by exchanging quinapril for the angiotensin II receptor antagonist candesartan, and by adding amlopidine. The BP has since been stable, averaging 130/76 (± 10/7) mm Hg, but the decline of renal function continued. The Figure shows the albuminuria record and the increase in HbA1c, serum creatinine and body weight with increasing insulin dosage.

In January 2004 his diet was changed radically by reducing dietary carbohydrates to 80–90 g per day, consisting only of vegetables and small amounts of hard bread (crisp bread). Potatoes, bread, pasta, rice and cereals were excluded, and the caloric requirements were covered by protein and fat. To ease the transition the patient was supplied with a number of meal recipes suggesting a caloric restriction to about 1800 calories per day. The per cent proportions of carbohydrates, fat and protein in the recipes were 20 : 50: 30.

Less than two weeks later the patient discontinued his insulin treatment and 6 months later his bodyweight had decreased by 19 kg. HbA1c had dropped to 6.5 % after 3 months, and the steady rise of his serum creatinine stopped. The creatinine has since – for two-and-a-half years – been stable as seen in the figure. When insulin was discontinued rosiglitazone was prescribed. In the Table measured parameters are shown before the dietary change, and now. As of late 2005 there was no sign of proliferative disease in the patient's retinopathy."


OMG - WHO is really the one Playing with Words etc etc etc ??????

What do YOU not understand about LCHF from THAT 4th Para... sighzzzzz

By reducing the carbs to only 80-90g per day means that it IS a Low Carb diet [with veggies & a bit of hard bread for Carbs] with the 1800 calories coming from proteins n fats with the ratios being Carbs 20 : Fat 50 : Protein 30 !

1. Just less than 2 weeks of LCHF Diet - insulin discontinued
2. 3 months - hbA1c & creatinine improved/stabilised
3. 6 months later (still on LCHF) - bodyweight reduced by 19kg

WHO is putting up all this Smoke Screen to cause confusion & to discredit me & all - putting cart before the horse etc etc etc

Who in fact is the blatant one here
trying his hardest [to ridiculous levels] to downplay the benefits of LCHF here and in the continual attacks ...tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk


I guess can include YOU too among those [peterpater gkhchay YL etc ....] using "the profiling approach to debate" to cast me in the worst profile/light

Last edited by kaypohchee; 13-10-2018 at 01:01 AM..
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Old 13-10-2018, 01:14 AM   #122
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I really pity your mom having a daughter like you. Really! The least you could do accompany her even if she refuses. Have you ever thought what’s gonna happen if she fell or met with an accident?

I do that to both my parents who also have dementia + a host of other chronic illnesses. I want to make sure they’re safe. Sure they scold me etc but my brother & I just get used to it, even when their moods change, get irritable & start throwing things. Elderly folks with vascular dementia are like that, or didn’t you know?
It is not a simple matter of 'even if she refuses'

It is plain & simple
- She Does NOT Allow me to accompany her for those daily trips
- She allows me to go with her for ONLY her medical appointments

Only when she's lost her independence (from falling etc)
Then I'll have more 'say n control' over her, not otherwise
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Old 13-10-2018, 08:20 AM   #123
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Looks like you have serious comprehension capabilities. Your posting of wots is not helping at all. As usual, own goal behaviour.

Gist of case study... A fat diabetic renal patient gaining weight previously. He underwent 2 changes 1)Lchf and 2)caloric restriction (net 1800 calories a day) with subsequent weight loss and improvement in renal fn.

The net caloric restriction is 1800 calories a day inclusive of all macronutrients.... Proper english understanding pls. The earlier statement is merely talking about the calorie requirement being covered (replaced) by protein and fats when the carbs are reduced.

So study concluded Lchf helps nephropathy when there was a strong confounding factor of caloric restriction with weight loss element which helps in obese renal patients regardless of carb intake. I repeat again, It is only fair to conclude LCHF diet helps in reversing nephropathy if benefits are seen without caloric restriction and weight loss.
Remember the twinkie diet where the prof ate trashy Mcdonalds at reduced calories lost weight in 1 month and his health indices improved. With your same logic, eating Mcdonalds will be the most healthy.

I guess anyone here can judge who is talking sense. As I have said before, go and post good quality articles instead of skewed N=1 articles and people will regard you in better light. Lol

Last edited by binbinpon; 13-10-2018 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 14-10-2018, 02:56 AM   #124
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Diabetes-causing beverages

https://twitter.com/jongaunt/status/1051167326622638080

Jon Gaunt
‏@jongaunt
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Do you still drink @CocaCola and other fizzy sugary drinks? If so please watch this @Simpleasfat and let me know what you think.

35g = 9.5 teaspoons sugar in a can of ordinary Coke



10:46 AM - 13 Oct 2018 from Warwick, England


Spoiler!

jewelz #Iamsoldierx #Iamtommy
‏@jewelz1206
20m20 minutes ago
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Replying to @jongaunt @CocaCola @Simpleasfat
I have'nt drank any fizzy pop for donkey's year's I hate it ...only carbonated water


Gina Millers Arse
‏@GinaArse
39m39 minutes ago
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Replying to @jongaunt @CocaCola @Simpleasfat
In moderation mate!

.................................

MILO is NOT as healthy as claimed ....
hmmm HPB & Halimah & Schooling ???

https://www.elitereaders.com/nestle-...h-star-rating/

Nestle Admits Milo Isn’t Healthy By Dropping Its Health Star Rating

“Health advocates claim the brand has been “tricking” consumers into believing Milo is actually nutritious.”



..........................................................


Why I'm so against evil unhealthy PUFA Oils - just industrial garbage oil

https://twitter.com/AnnChildersMD/st...25457247227904

Food is FUEL
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Food is FUEL Retweeted Dr. Ann
Disgusting.
And they tote Canola Oil as “healthy” - waaaay too much processing...
This is why EVOO is best; squeeze an olive, oil comes out, you’re done.
Simple and what God intended.



Dr. Ann
‏@AnnChildersMD
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How It's Made - Canola Oil

https://t.co/2IvD2f1HJ4



8:00 AM - 13 Oct 2018


Mike Smith
‏@UKMikeSmith
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Replying to @AnnChildersMD @ProfTimNoakes
Blocked in the UK but here's a different link
https://youtu.be/omjWmLG0EAs



Disgusting stuff and yet promoted as healthy. Watch for the healthy vegetable shortening bit
��

12:30 AM - 14 Oct 2018


Mark Miller
‏@markmillerdakar
40m40 minutes ago
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Replying to @AnnChildersMD @whsource
Gross but thanks for that


Michael William Wood
‏@michaelwoodhci
51m51 minutes ago
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Replying to @AnnChildersMD
Yummy natural healthy chemically altered artificial crap. No thanks. Any RCT’s showing it changes all-cause mortality? Lowering cholesterol only doesn’t count—only real health changes do.


Food Forensics
‏@Kenn_QBE
1h1 hour ago
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Replying to @AnnChildersMD
Lmao! The link is blocked in various Countries!
Well they can put their "Canada Oil"...where a 'Monkey puts its peanuts'....Lol!



Thomaseli
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Replying to @AnnChildersMD
Compare that with this, and how the **** is this even a choice:
https://youtu.be/vkCFzFvcmpM

Last edited by kaypohchee; 14-10-2018 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 14-10-2018, 03:18 AM   #125
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WHY we shouldn't eat heavily esp at night

https://twitter.com/kevinstrials/sta...36258463526918

Kevin Bass's n-of-1 Live Data Feed
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This is what blood glucose looks like on nighttime eating.

Not surprisingly, I feel awful.




5:22 AM - 9 Oct 2018


Spoiler!


Tony
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Oct 9
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Replying to @kevinstrials
Looking at your gragh a bit too much variability for non diabetic for my taste above is a graph of good curve blue line is glucose
Large Variability is as bad as sustained highs. Can you provide the SDEV for that day?




Kevin Bass's n-of-1 Live Data Feed
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Oct 9
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I think the variability is probably excessive. Notably, your curve is in response to a single test meal. In contrast, I have been eating pretty constantly. I will provide more descriptive statistics when I am controlling more and testing specific questions.


Kevin Bass's n-of-1 Live Data Feed
‏@kevinstrials
Oct 9
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But I think we can both agree that what I have shown so far looks pretty bad.


Tony
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Replying to @kevinstrials
And all that excess glucose is stored as fat since no immediate need for it so add weight gain


Spoiler!
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Old 14-10-2018, 01:36 PM   #126
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Tweets can be used as source for medical research?

Will doctors and researchers use tweets from random tom dick harry to back their claim in future?
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Old 14-10-2018, 01:53 PM   #127
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Tweets can be used as source for medical research?

Will doctors and researchers use tweets from random tom dick harry to back their claim in future?
I find tweets make for very easy info sharing n discussion etc n they can include any links to proper medical/other research/data/etc too ....

Best of all worlds - avoid WOTs too
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Old 14-10-2018, 02:11 PM   #128
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I find tweets make for very easy info sharing n discussion etc n they can include any links to proper medical/other research/data/etc too ....

Best of all worlds - avoid WOTs too


In case you don't realise, numerous tweets quoted in 1 post is equivalent to WOT.

Maybe it is easy info sharing for you, but for others who see it, it will just cause headache and confusion. For the benefit of others (i mean those who are genuinely nterested in finding out more), do a summary of the gist.

I'm sure given your academic background and ex-professional training, it should be a piece of cake. Put your knowledge and experience to good use, benefit others and promoting alternative health tips (which you claim to be your motivation in participating in the forum)

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Old 14-10-2018, 02:15 PM   #129
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Tweets can be used as source for medical research?

Will doctors and researchers use tweets from random tom dick harry to back their claim in future?
Aiyah you still don’t understand. She doesn’t know how to google for actual studies & even if she knows she doesn’t understand them.

And all her arguments are based from the tweets rather than from her own conclusions of the actual studies.

Her legally trained mind cannot comprehend scientific lingo lah.
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Old 14-10-2018, 04:54 PM   #130
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Looks like you have serious comprehension capabilities. Your posting of wots is not helping at all. As usual, own goal behaviour.

Gist of case study... A fat diabetic renal patient gaining weight previously. He underwent 2 changes 1)Lchf and 2)caloric restriction (net 1800 calories a day) with subsequent weight loss and improvement in renal fn.

The net caloric restriction is 1800 calories a day inclusive of all macronutrients.... Proper english understanding pls. The earlier statement is merely talking about the calorie requirement being covered (replaced) by protein and fats when the carbs are reduced.

So study concluded Lchf helps nephropathy when there was a strong confounding factor of caloric restriction with weight loss element which helps in obese renal patients regardless of carb intake. I repeat again, It is only fair to conclude LCHF diet helps in reversing nephropathy if benefits are seen without caloric restriction and weight loss.
Remember the twinkie diet where the prof ate trashy Mcdonalds at reduced calories lost weight in 1 month and his health indices improved. With your same logic, eating Mcdonalds will be the most healthy.

I guess anyone here can judge who is talking sense. As I have said before, go and post good quality articles instead of skewed N=1 articles and people will regard you in better light. Lol
In case you don't realise, numerous tweets quoted in 1 post is equivalent to WOT.

Maybe it is easy info sharing for you, but for others who see it, it will just cause headache and confusion. For the benefit of others (i mean those who are genuinely nterested in finding out more), do a summary of the gist.

I'm sure given your academic background and ex-professional training, it should be a piece of cake. Put your knowledge and experience to good use, benefit others and promoting alternative health tips (which you claim to be your motivation in participating in the forum)

Posted from PCWX using My Intellectual Brain
It's just impossible to please everyone
So I might as well stick to my preferred style

Just SKIP & Ignore MY posts (like testerjp claimed he did) should your Hate for WOTs be stronger than possibly any desire to glean new/alternative info shared from my tweet/etc reading !

I will try my very best to put Spoilers for those posts that are not in my own threads - suggest you switch over to HWZ from GAGT (for the Spoilers to be effective at much-less-scrolling as less finger/thumb exercise for you )

As for MY own-started threads it would be great if the WOT-Haters & KPC-Attackers were to PLS STAY OUT - TQ very much !
That would conserve my precious energy & time too !

Posting WOTs DO have their specific uses and benefits
Laying out ALL there as-is and not 'my own' possibly slanted etc summaries or gist etc
I prefer to share the tweets as-is as some have their rather amusing nuances clever irony etc which would be LOST in summaries/gist !

Otherwise the LCHF-Haters & KPC-Attackers like binbinpon etc
WILL choose to focus on only certain [his slanted] portions in the link contents to suit HIS personal agenda (including utterly ridiculous interpretations etc etc)

Do read the FULL contents in that Case Study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523335/

Spoiler!


I ask you

For those doing LC/LCHF on a proper well-formulated woe plan ie the majority of the ordinary sensible ones with common sense etc - isn't it taken-for-granted as a matter of fact that you WILL eat less calories when you switch over to healthy Fat n Proteins in your reduction of Carbs - doesn't it follow naturally that you WILL also lose weight if the more LC you are eg if on 70-90 g carbs/day [don't go for his Smoke Screen extreme example ] ie isn't weightloss just 1 of the several benefits seen with the switch to eating LC/LCHF ????

ALSO in many cases IMPROVEMENTS in markers were observed WELL BEFORE any weight loss was seen too after the change to such a proper sensible LC Woe !!!!

binbinpon is trying EXTREMELY hard to say the Renal Improvement was due SOLELY to the Weightloss from Caloric Reduction instead

He simply REFUSES to acknowledge that it was the LC Woe that brought about all the benefits in that case

Being a proper Case Study it was necessary to provide more details on the LC woe including exact macro ratios/g and calories too [found in a proper sensible well-formulated LC Eating Plan]

I find all his TWISTING etc simply ridiculous & wasting my precious time with the unending rebuttals etc !


binbinpon should also read my post at https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/1...6-post168.html
Explains why Prof Walter Willet [the Ancel Keyes of 2018] of Harvard is such a hypocritical vegan and not to be trusted at all esp in HIS studies & research such as binbinpon's favourite ARIC Study.... [coming after the demolished Spanish Study]

Last edited by kaypohchee; 14-10-2018 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 14-10-2018, 05:32 PM   #131
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suggest you switch over to HWZ from GAGT (for the Spoilers to be effective at much-less-scrolling as less finger/thumb exercise for you )
Fyi, if you have yet to notice, i don't use GAGT. Neither would I be using HWZ. Gam siah


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Old 14-10-2018, 07:40 PM   #132
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I ask you

[B]For those doing LC/LCHF on a proper well-formulated woe plan ie the majority of the ordinary sensible ones with common sense e- isn't it taken-for-granted as a matter of fact that you WILL eat less calories when you switch over to healthy Fat n Proteins in your reduction of Carbs
Poor KPC. Your assumption is not valid.

The main premise of LCHF diet is description of macronutrient ratio. Calorie restriction is calorie restriction.

You can eat LCHF on a HYPERCALORIC balance, as in some cases of bodybuilders trying to bulk up (even though that is not the optimal approach I will recommend).
In fact most likely you will have worsening of nephropathy if you stick to high calorie intake (say 6000) a day on lchf, as in this case study when the obese patient was taking unrestricted calories despite on a recommended HCLPLF diet before embarking on a calorie and lchf diet change.

Improvements in this case study are seen early with not just lchf, and also with caloric restriction since they are instituted together.

You have already seen the beneficial evidence provided by caloric restriction and loss of weight solely on nephropathy regardless of carb intake stated by the article and your fav n=1 example rawtuna.

It appears that you are just showcasing the typical LC camp behavior of casting criticism on mainstream medicine while not applying the same rigorous standard towards own camp's research. All the blah blah bias postings are hardly useful in the face of such hypocrisy.

Really no point to continue discussion on this topic with you. Every reader in EDWM should be capable of enough critical thinking to judge for themselves (except yourself).

Last edited by binbinpon; 14-10-2018 at 08:30 PM..
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Old 14-10-2018, 08:12 PM   #133
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Why always using extreme examples to Smoke Screen your way thru???

Bodybuilders are not the usual metabolic ill patients under discussion here

Sighxxzz simply EXASPERATING for me too !!!!!
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Old 14-10-2018, 08:17 PM   #134
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Poor KPC. Your assumption is not valid.

The main premise of LCHF diet is description of macronutrient ratio. Calorie restriction is calorie restriction.

You can eat LCHF on a HYPERCALORIC balance, as in some cases of bodybuilders trying to bulk up (even though that is not the optimal approach I will recommend).

You have already seen the beneficial evidence provided by caloric restriction and loss of weight solely on nephropathy regardless of carb intake stated by the article and your fav n=1 example rawtuna.

It appears that you are just showcasing the typical LC camp behavior of casting criticism on mainstream medicine while not applying the same rigorous standard towards own camp's research. All the blah blah bias postings are hardly useful in the face of such hypocrisy.

Really no point to continue discussion on this topic with you. Every reader in EDWM should be capable of enough critical thinking to judge for themselves (except yourself).
I totally agree.

From the standpoint of gaining muscular weight, keto/LCHF is not the way to go. Even retaining existing muscle mass was extremely difficult as I personally experienced.

For me the amount of fat that I was taking kept me so full that I was taking insufficient protein & calories. So even though I was working out, I became skinny as can be seen in the pics I posted in the slimming thread. I also need to emphasize that sometimes I was even on IF, not because I wanted to but because I felt too full to eat.

Once I got off the LCHF bandwagon, lowered my fat intake, I automatically ate more protein & carbs & regained the muscle mass that I lost when on LCHF.

CICO is pretty easy to understand although the type of calories one ingests also matters.

Last edited by gkhchay; 14-10-2018 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 14-10-2018, 08:25 PM   #135
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To me seems like User Error n also needs Personal Customisation of LC/LCHealthy-not-HighFat for individuals - just as I too needed to tweak until found what works for me/us !

Still on the "old often misunderstood HF" thinking
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