FRS vs ERS

BBCWatcher

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Which country is not for them?
....At least most poorest have some places to stay here.
I think there are degrees of toughness, but it’s always tough.

Maybe low income/wealth citizens in a couple of the Middle Eastern petroeconomies also find life somewhat less tough.
 

Merg91

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CPF is a good middle system.
Not the welfare that taxes the working / rich dry to make some poor happiest.
I believe even HK wishes to have it.

I am middle class and my ERS @65 will be almost extra $120k & I will need it.
I was alarmed when some confused one said cpf only returns $264k with the $120k forfeited if I graduate from this world @65. I am okay if my family gets to use the $380k.
And you are not concerned about yours?

....support cpf life as a scheme but so concerned about his interest being taken away. It's almost as if he wasn't aware cpf life is taking away his interest.
 

angtc11

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CPF is a good middle system.
Not the welfare that taxes the working / rich dry to make some poor happiest.
I believe even HK wishes to have it.

I am middle class and my ERS @65 will be almost extra $120k & I will need it.
I was alarmed when some confused one said cpf only returns $264k with the $120k forfeited if I graduate from this world @65. I am okay if my family gets to use the $380k.
And you are not concerned about yours?

I still cannot reconcile your thoughts. You are concerned about the 120k interest between 55 and 70 but not concerned about the interest between 70 and 85 (assuming you live to a median age)? That interest from 70 is from a higher base.

Preferably all my funds remaining is left to my family. However, I do recognize that the socialization of costs is beneficial to the society as a whole, so I don't mind the concept. However, I don't like cpf life with its high breakeven age. The high breakeven age means that the funds are likely to keep accumulating in the fund, benefiting no one (except maybe the fund manager). If the breakeven age is more equitable, I would support cpf life fully.
 

BBCWatcher

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However, I don't like cpf life with its high breakeven age.
Compared to...?

You should only compare CPF LIFE to other available alternatives. Mythical, hypothetical, and historical alternatives don't count -- they don't exist. I cannot find anything else remotely comparable that comes even close; CPF LIFE is an excellent value. (We can always wish something were even more excellent.) Would you like to nominate an available alternative for comparison? What's your next best alternative for this particular portion of your savings/wealth?
 

angtc11

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Compared to...?

You should only compare CPF LIFE to other available alternatives. Mythical, hypothetical, and historical alternatives don't count -- they don't exist. I cannot find anything else remotely comparable that comes even close; CPF LIFE is an excellent value. (We can always wish something were even more excellent.) Would you like to nominate an available alternative for comparison? What's your next best alternative for this particular portion of your savings/wealth?

The high breakeven age is with respect to the interest of cpf. In this aspect, it is not comparable to commercial annuities. My preference for this portion of my wealth is to leave it in cpf just the way it was before cpf life and without a maximum drawdown age because I don't need it.

Similarly to your proposal for joint survivor annuity benefits, it is also mythical in the Singapore context, but you are still plugging away.
 
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BBCWatcher

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The high breakeven age is with respect to the interest of cpf. In this aspect, it is not comparable to commercial annuities. My preference for this portion of my wealth is to leave it in cpf just the way it was before cpf life and without a maximum drawdown age because I don't need it.
OK, that choice is available to you if you simply leave Singapore and terminate your right of abode in Singapore (citizenship or permanent residence, as applicable), as long as you terminate before CPF LIFE payouts start, which can be as late as sometime in your 69th year of age. Whereupon you can leave all funds in CPF earning interest for as long as you wish. However, the only withdrawal allowed is a complete withdrawal; you're not allowed to make a partial withdrawal.

Is that your best available alternative? Is that your plan?
 

tangent314

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First of all, it is not true that CPFL is for those that 'cannot manage on their own', at the same time it is not true that CPF Life "burdens the poor most". These two are sort of related, so I will explain together.

The poorer people need to stretch their savings out for the entire remaining duration of their lives. They can't go back to the old MSS scheme where payout stops at age 85 and find themselves having to depend on others once the payout stops. You could put them on a scheme where they maintain their principle sum and pay them only the interest earned - theoretically this will last forever, however the payout will be pretty low under this, which is not a good thing for a poor retiree with no other source of income.

What they need is an annuity plan, which pays out over their entire remaining lifespan no matter how long it is. Even for people that know how to manage their money, CPFL is still the best option for them because you *cannot* DIY an annuity plan, because it requires risk pooling. Also, within Singapore, you cannot find an annuity plan that gives you better rates than CPFL.

The richer you are, the less you can depend on CPFL to provide your basic lifetime income, so CPFL does not benefit you as much. So really, it is the poor that depends and benefits more from CPFL.
 
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henrylbh

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First of all, it is not true that CPFL is for those that 'cannot manage on their own', at the same time it is not true that CPF Life "burdens the poor most". These two are sort of related, so I will explain together.

The poorer people need to stretch their savings out for the entire remaining duration of their lives. They can't go back to the old MSS scheme where payout stops at age 85 and find themselves having to depend on others once the payout stops. You could put them on a scheme where they maintain their principle sum and pay them only the interest earned - theoretically this will last forever, however the payout will be pretty low under this, which is not a good thing for a poor retiree with no other source of income.

What they need is an annuity plan, which pays out over their entire remaining lifespan no matter how long it is. Even for people that know how to manage their money, CPFL is still the best option for them because you *cannot* DIY an annuity plan, because it requires risk pooling. Also, within Singapore, you cannot find an annuity plan that gives you better rates than CPFL.

The richer you are, the less you can depend on CPFL to provide your basic lifetime income, so CPFL does not benefit you as much. So really, it is the poor that depends and benefits more from CPFL.

Are you not contradicting yourself when you said that the poor people need to stretch their savings out for the entire remaining duration of their lives? Am I wrong to say that CPFL is for those who can't manage their CPF retirement sum?

Next, do you agree that generally the rich lives longer than the poor?
 

Mecisteus

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well said. to me cpf is for the middle tier that cannot manage.

cpf is a burden to the low income group

I kind of agree with dork here for the low income group.

For those who are earning <$2k, savings and insurance are their less priorities because they are having a hard time providing for shelter and food.

Remember Maslow Hierarchy of Needs? The low income group has to satisfy the lowest pyramid first before they can go to higher level of needs.

CPFL is under long term savings which is the 2nd order. Short term savings is prioritized to long term. If you cannot sustain in the short term, there is no point looking at long term.
 

Merg91

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Smoking + drinking are not essential & yet many low income do.
These are taxed here at one of highest in the world.
The excuse is always for stress relief & unable to quit

Having the most number of children?

Poor people may also live easily into 80s.
But the group that detest cpf is from here.
Their low end jobs are easily replaced by young /robots later.
 
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Merg91

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The ones who always say 'they can manage' their CPF/retirement sum usually are the ones who need the money most.
How many can get ultrasafe 5-6% if they 'manage' themself?
Many of these would have the eyes pop up the moment the cpf is released like the Malaysians.

I am not sure if the poor here live the shortest.
Other than the gene, the healthier lifestyle / affordable medical care are the reasons why Singaporeans live one of the longest around.

Are you not contradicting yourself when you said that the poor people need to stretch their savings out for the entire remaining duration of their lives? Am I wrong to say that CPFL is for those who can't manage their CPF retirement sum?

Next, do you agree that generally the rich lives longer than the poor?
 

dork32

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First of all, it is not true that CPFL is for those that 'cannot manage on their own', at the same time it is not true that CPF Life "burdens the poor most". These two are sort of related, so I will explain together.

The poorer people need to stretch their savings out for the entire remaining duration of their lives. They can't go back to the old MSS scheme where payout stops at age 85 and find themselves having to depend on others once the payout stops. You could put them on a scheme where they maintain their principle sum and pay them only the interest earned - theoretically this will last forever, however the payout will be pretty low under this, which is not a good thing for a poor retiree with no other source of income.

What they need is an annuity plan, which pays out over their entire remaining lifespan no matter how long it is. Even for people that know how to manage their money, CPFL is still the best option for them because you *cannot* DIY an annuity plan, because it requires risk pooling. Also, within Singapore, you cannot find an annuity plan that gives you better rates than CPFL.

The richer you are, the less you can depend on CPFL to provide your basic lifetime income, so CPFL does not benefit you as much. So really, it is the poor that depends and benefits more from CPFL.

our garmen say poor people need to work till they die
 

angtc11

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OK, that choice is available to you if you simply leave Singapore and terminate your right of abode in Singapore (citizenship or permanent residence, as applicable), as long as you terminate before CPF LIFE payouts start, which can be as late as sometime in your 69th year of age. Whereupon you can leave all funds in CPF earning interest for as long as you wish. However, the only withdrawal allowed is a complete withdrawal; you're not allowed to make a partial withdrawal.

Is that your best available alternative? Is that your plan?

Thank you for your suggestion, I am well aware of my options, however it isn't another binary choice too. As of now, I will participate in cpf life but probably limit the amount of longevity insurance purchased via the cpf life scheme.

Not liking cpf life does not imply that I have to /plan to leave Singapore just as not being able to purchase joint annuity here does not not imply that you have to leave.
 

dork32

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The high breakeven age is with respect to the interest of cpf. In this aspect, it is not comparable to commercial annuities. My preference for this portion of my wealth is to leave it in cpf just the way it was before cpf life and without a maximum drawdown age because I don't need it.

Similarly to your proposal for joint survivor annuity benefits, it is also mythical in the Singapore context, but you are still plugging away.

you dont have to waste time arguing with bbc.

he has a one track mind. he is correct. everything else is wrong.

at least i can say we and many others like kenny, maple, henry... have the same thoughts on loss of interest on cpf life standard, cpf being a burden to low income....
 

henrylbh

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Smoking + drinking are not essential & yet many low income do.
These are taxed here at one of highest in the world.
The excuse is always for stress relief & unable to quit

Having the most number of children?

Poor people may also live easily into 80s.
But the group that detest cpf is from here.
Their low end jobs are easily replaced by young /robots later.

You are generalising or you got numbers or study done to substantiate many low income smoke and drink? No need to compare the whole population. Just the numbers against the poor population.

The poor may live to 80s or even 90s, but which group, poor or rich, do you think would generally outlive the other?

Even if all live to 80s, they still lose out as breakeven point to get back your money in CPF with the prevailing interest is above 90.

The group that detest CPF is here? If you say that those with not much in CPF or do not trust the system are the ones against CPF, I may agree.

I am not against CPF. I am benefitting from CPF, but I am not in favour of CPFL even though I may be benefitting from someone else annuity premium :s13:
 

henrylbh

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Thank you for your suggestion, I am well aware of my options, however it isn't another binary choice too. As of now, I will participate in cpf life but probably limit the amount of longevity insurance purchased via the cpf life scheme.

Not liking cpf life does not imply that I have to /plan to leave Singapore just as not being able to purchase joint annuity here does not not imply that you have to leave.

I refrain from disagreeing with the alternative that one got choice to cut one's NRIC as an option to terminate CPF cause I thought that was dumb answer :s13:
 

henrylbh

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our garmen say poor people need to work till they die

Indirectly, a big yes. But what to do? The country need lots of workers and need the people to stand on their own feet instead of depending on state welfare. Those who have the means can stop work anytime they like regardless of what the retirement age. But the less well off or naïve are the ones that decides not to work thinking they got enough to live till they go.
 

BBCWatcher

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For those who are earning <$2k, savings and insurance are their less priorities because they are having a hard time providing for shelter and food.
Are they, assuming we're talking about citizens and basic shelter and basic food?

It'd certainly help if the government determined what the poverty line is in Singapore, updated it every year, and counted the number of households below the poverty line. I don't know how it's possible to declare that poverty isn't a problem if you won't even measure it at least reasonably well against a well determined benchmark.

Remember Maslow Hierarchy of Needs? The low income group has to satisfy the lowest pyramid first before they can go to higher level of needs.

CPFL is under long term savings which is the 2nd order.
....But it's for basic shelter and basic food from age 65 onward!

BRS-level CPF LIFE, Standard Plan, age 65 payout start is about $760 per month with no escalation to combat inflation. That's a lot less than, say, $1,800/month, isn't it? $760/month is certainly not a champagne and caviar income stream.

If you're talking about someone who's trying to live on, say, $800/month or less of income, you might have a point. But CPF contribution rates are lower for earned income below $750 per month, so this stuff all fits together fairly well. (We could certainly quibble about the exact numbers, but there was/is some logical policy design thinking applied here.)

Poverty sucks, no doubt. But elder destitution sucks even more, no doubt.

I refrain from disagreeing with the alternative that one got choice to cut one's NRIC as an option to terminate CPF cause I thought that was dumb answer :s13:
Dumb leads to dumb, which is the whole point.

For example, it'd be terrific if CPF Special, MediSave, and Retirement Accounts earned 8% interest on every dollar. But they don't. They earn attractive interest that's well above market rates (and getting more above market lately). It's dumb to discuss alternatives that don't exist, except possibly in broad policy proposal terms, especially when they are fully funded policy proposals. There is no "breakeven age" for CPF LIFE based on 4+% interest forever and ever -- there is no such alternative. (Well, except for my "dumb" counterexample, if you'd like to choose it.) There's no God given right to above market interest on pre-tax/never taxed dollars.

"Oh, but the old system was different...." Yes, it was, but it's no longer available. Moreover, those under the old system also "enjoyed" lower contribution rates (particularly on the employer side, which given how wage elasticities work means they were/are worse off than younger cohorts), lower median real wages, much less bonus interest (which only started in 2008), and fewer or no free money top ups. In other words, their CPF account balances are substantially lower -- and thus they are substantially poorer -- even with the same career experience as somebody working under the new system. And everybody under the old system has to start payouts no later than age 70, too.

With respect to the "oh, bonus interest wasn't tied to CPF LIFE," that's dumb. It doesn't have to be rule tied to CPF LIFE to be highly mathematically tied to CPF LIFE cohorts, which is exactly what it is. Bonus interest benefits younger cohorts much, much more than older cohorts. Bonus interest is not paid retroactively, for the part of your working career that spanned 1988 through 2007, for example. But if you started your working career 10 years ago, then your entire working career will enjoy the benefits of bonus interest...and you're a CPF LIFE cohort.
 
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Merg91

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Did it ?
Anyway nobody is forced to work.
Kopitiam /RC karaoke /libraries/ Chinatown are full of elderly idling away days after days, years after years.

Many works are not labour intensive & why not?
Boredom /dementia /nagging wives kill.
In my line, most in 60s - 70s are working, at least part time.

our garmen say poor people need to work till they die
 

Merg91

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So you like a bit more CPF or a bit less?

Unfortunately there is no perfect system around for a spectrum of people.
As long as most can benefit, it should be done.

Many 'ideas' proposed by some only aim to maximise their own pocket $$ in their own situations.

The high breakeven age means that the funds are likely to keep accumulating in the fund, benefiting no one (except maybe the fund manager). If the breakeven age is more equitable, I would support cpf life fully.
 
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