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dqwong 14-09-2014 10:27 PM

Discussion on DAC(Digital to Analog Converters)
 
I have been researching alot into DAC(AKM/Crystal Semiconductor/ESS/Ti/Wolfson) and here's some interesting quotes I found from Charles Hansen(Founder and Designer) of Ayre Acoustics

Quote:

As time went on, the main demand has been for smaller, cheaper DAC chips with lower power consumption. This is due to the iPod craze. There is still a market for high-performance audio DAC chips, but there are only a handful left. All but one (the Burr-Brown PCM1704) use some form of a delta-sigma design that typically has only one to six bits, and relies on oversampling and noise shaping to attain reasonable performance.

In general, the more bits it has, the better the performance will be. However with a ladder DAC, all of the bits beyond 18 or so are called "marketing bits" as there is no audio-grade ladder that can exceed 18 bits of resolution. For example when Burr-Brown replaced the "20-bit" PCM1702 with the "24-bit" PCM1704, not one single specification changed. The only difference was that you could feed it digital words that were 24 bits long.
source:
Q&A with Charles Hansen of Ayre Acoustics | AudioStream



Quote:

The Analog Devices AD1955 is essentially similar to the Burr-Brown devices. The Cirrus Logic CS4398 has a switched-capacitor analog stage, which in conjunction with an internal op-amp provides a voltage output. I have never been a fan of op-amps. The AKM AK4396 is similar to the Cirrus Logic part except that it has a patented method (6,693,574) of canceling some of the out-of-band noise created by the sigma-delta modulator. Some people, particularly Alex Peychev of the now defunct APL Labs, loved this part for that reason.

None of these parts provides any better low-level resolution than the Burr-Brown parts.
Quote:

The ESS9018 is all the rage these days among certain people. The DAC section itself performs comparably to the PCM1792. However, the chip has a smorgasbord of other functions built in -- asynchronous sample rate converter, programmable digital filter, 8 channels of DACs (for easy design of a 7.1 channel receiver), and a multi-input S/PDIF receiver. Consequently, this part is expensive -- nearly 4x the price of the PCM1792. Since I don't need those other functions I don't feel that it offers a good value for my needs.
Quote:

The AK4399 is similar to the AK4396, but is a "32-bit" part. This was probably the first of the "32-bit" parts. The specs are not improved over the 24-bit parts, it is simply a marketing gimmick that produces little, if any, audible improvement.
source:
Oversampling: Who Does It Best? - Page 5

kenz 14-09-2014 11:53 PM

Really boils down to individual experience, sound preference, music genre taste, mood and a whole lot of other marketing stuff that are "internalized".

In my own personal experience, it boils down to the tuning and architecture implementation, to deliver the final output. Every thing in-between can a topic of debate or discussion, will amount to nothing if the output doesn't fit the user's taste.

dqwong 15-09-2014 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenz (Post 88510745)
Really boils down to individual experience, sound preference, music genre taste, mood and a whole lot of other marketing stuff that are "internalized".

In my own personal experience, it boils down to the tuning and architecture implementation, to deliver the final output. Every thing in-between can a topic of debate or discussion, will amount to nothing if the output doesn't fit the user's taste.

Essentially it boils down to: One man's meat is another man's poison

I am just wondering how much $$$ must one invest before one is nearing the summit of high fieldity. It's just that at the highest end of audio gear, most of the time you are just paying for the design of the casing(aesthetics) more than anything else.

e.g. The sonic performance between DX100 vs HM901 vs AK240 vs Fiio X5

And between HD800 vs LCD-X vs PS-1000e

weng 15-09-2014 01:37 AM

imo too component level liao. may or may not be meaningful to judge a product quality. just like what kenz said, final output still matters.

eg what centrance mentioned in this page:
CEntrance Blog Archive Inside DACport, by Popular Demand


"DAC design is not about the parts, but about the overall circuit design, down to the power supply, the neighboring components, and the individual traces on the PCB."

dqwong 15-09-2014 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weng (Post 88512712)
imo too component level liao. may or may not be meaningful to judge a product quality. just like what kenz said, final output still matters.

eg what centrance mentioned in this page:
CEntrance Blog Archive Inside DACport, by Popular Demand


"DAC design is not about the parts, but about the overall circuit design, down to the power supply, the neighboring components, and the individual traces on the PCB."

Well I am thinking interms of Audio GD DACs:

All of the Audio GD DACs have the almost same type of beefy power supplies/circuitry/dsp/usb/production quality and all. Thus it now all boils down to the "DAC chip" level for the sound signature.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Products-EN.htm

They offer 3 different types of DACs inside their current DACs:

1) ESS Sabre 9018
2) Wolfson WM8741
3) Ti/Burr Brown PCM1704

Now pondering whether to bite the bullet for the more expensive R2R dac or stick with cheaper sigma-delta dac.


http://www.head-fi.org/products/audi...7/reviews/8087
http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thou...late-ice-cream

Seth Lee 15-09-2014 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88512874)
Well I am thinking interms of Audio GD DACs:

All of the Audio GD DACs have the almost same type of beefy power supplies/circuitry/dsp/usb/production quality and all. Thus it now all boils down to the "DAC chip" level for the sound signature.

ͧ*响

They offer 3 different types of DACs inside their current DACs:

1) ESS Sabre 9018
2) Wolfson WM8741
3) Ti/Burr Brown PCM1704

Now pondering whether to bite the bullet for the more expensive R2R dac or stick with cheaper sigma-delta dac.


“Nothing more, sonically, I could ask for.” - Currawong’s Review of Audio-gd Master 7
Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why I hate chocolate ice cream)

think the Chord Hugo has elevated the game beyond the implementation of "off the shelves" DAC chips like Wolfson, ESS, Burr Brown, Cirrus, Ti and what have you with their AIO chip.

Questor 15-09-2014 12:53 PM

I agree the most with kenz.. while the chip has some determinant, it does not dictate what the eventual sound is like. The implementation is more important.

Personally I wouldn't get Audio GD, but that's because of hearing experience rather than specs.

There is no 'summit' of high end. It is a journey and you'll never reach the end.. you just have to choose where you want to drop off. There are DACs costing $10 to $100k.. as you go higher end, there are less and less off-the-shelf chips being used.. dCs, emmlabs, chord, etc all use their own proprietary methods.

bangdoll 15-09-2014 01:47 PM

I agree with Quest.

rickysio 15-09-2014 03:04 PM

Problem with Audio-GD is that it's one man churning out millions of designs in very short times... I don't really think that's a very good style of business to buy into.

At the end of the day, happy can liao. Focus too much on the chip and you miss the jungle for a tree.

dqwong 15-09-2014 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickysio (Post 88523307)
Problem with Audio-GD is that it's one man churning out millions of designs in very short times... I don't really think that's a very good style of business to buy into.

At the end of the day, happy can liao. Focus too much on the chip and you miss the jungle for a tree.

Audio GD is like buying from a hand soldered company: :s22:
http://www.headfonia.com/wp-content/..._ref7-1_14.jpg

source:
The Flagship Audio Gd: PCM1704 based Ref 7.1

However on the other side of coin is that Audio GD is a company that is constantly improving their product line, and pretty much value for money(production $ into internal components vs exterior aesthetic).

As much as I am a "newer tech is always better" person, I think audio quality is all about good electrical design and along with good component materials.

dqwong 15-09-2014 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Lee (Post 88514081)
think the Chord Hugo has elevated the game beyond the implementation of "off the shelves" DAC chips like Wolfson, ESS, Burr Brown, Cirrus, Ti and what have you with their AIO chip.

No matter how good sounding or how well designed filters on the hugo might be:

The overall build quality of the Hugo leaves me totally unimpressed from a durability stand point:
http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/images...ugo_Inputs.jpg

They make Ibasso look like Swiss Made.(yes thats how poorly made the hugo is, especially when you consider the price it is sold at)

http://cache.media.techz.vn/upload/2...98068981-4.jpg

dqwong 15-09-2014 09:43 PM

Ben Zwickel of Mojo Audio

Quote:

Weve found that the power supply makes the biggest difference in any component. Even the most modest of chips and circuitry can have exceptional performance with the right power supply. Performance is influenced to a greater extent by the power supply than by any other factor. When it comes to DAC chips, however, this is a bit of a complex topic. To oversimplify, DAC chips can be divided into two major categories, modern single bit closest approximation DACs and vintage multibit R-2R ladder DACs. In my experience, each does different things better, and I have not yet heard a DAC chip that does all things correctly. The modern closest approximation DACs have better extension, better dynamics, and lower background noise, whereas the vintage R-2R ladder DACs have better time, tone, timbre, and emotional content.

A significant part of our recent prototyping has been about searching for a modern DAC chip that would give us the best of both worlds. So far we have not found one that does.

Of course modern DACs play modern formats like DSD and native high-res files. However, I would estimate that over 90 percent of all recorded music available today is only available in 16-bit digital, so personally I prefer a DAC that is optimized for 16-bit as opposed to one that sounds amazing with a handful recordings done in modern high-res formats.
An Interview with Ben Zwickel of Mojo Audio - Page 6 of 6 - Dagogo | A Unique Audiophile Experience

t258jgn 15-09-2014 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88527455)
The overall build quality of the Hugo leaves me totally unimpressed from a durability stand point:

Labour cost very high in UK. Everything use high end components + 50% profits = SG price will end up $3+k.:s22:

Nobody will buy le.

dqwong 15-09-2014 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t258jgn (Post 88533026)
Labour cost very high in UK. Everything use high end components + 50% profits = SG price will end up $3+k.:s22:

Nobody will buy le.

I can understand if they skim cost on the exterior casing of the hugo. However the input jacks look horribly cheap and fragile, like your S$20 usb soundcard you find at challenger. Even my PC motherboard onboard soundcard's jack looks more well made/durable. This is totally unacceptable in a S$2k priced product, even for S$200 product. All they need to do is increase the price by S$100-$200 to use abit better jacks, I also won't mind.

Consider a <S$200 soundcard from Asus has better jacks:
http://images.bit-tech.net/content_i...xonardx4-7.jpg

weng 15-09-2014 11:21 PM

Haha not to join in the "fun" but really would like to comment about the apparent exterior built quality of the hugo. To me it looks and feels like those soundtech av splitter standard. Sound is another thing.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...94PqFgJxgG.jpg

t258jgn 15-09-2014 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88534377)
I can understand if they skim cost on the exterior casing of the hugo. However the input jacks look horribly cheap and fragile, like your S$20 usb soundcard you find at challenger. Even my PC motherboard onboard soundcard's jack looks more well made/durable. This is totally unacceptable in a S$2k priced product, even for S$200 product. All they need to do is increase the price by S$100-$200 to use abit better jacks, I also won't mind.

Consider a <S$200 soundcard from Asus has better jacks:

It's like $490 spent on tokgong components & left $10 spent on IO jacks :s13:
As long as sound is tokgong can liao

kaixax555 16-09-2014 12:08 AM

Hmmm ultimately how the DAC sounds like and performs boil down to the design of the circuitry and other components

Take a look at iBasso D10 and Headamp Pico...both use the same (or at least same family) of chips yet they don't share similar signatures nor sound quality

dqwong 16-09-2014 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaixax555 (Post 88536386)
Hmmm ultimately how the DAC sounds like and performs boil down to the design of the circuitry and other components

Take a look at iBasso D10 and Headamp Pico...both use the same (or at least same family) of chips yet they don't share similar signatures nor sound quality

The difference between Ibasso and headamp pico is more due to the output capacitors:

picoamp
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/headamp2/open_2.jpg

ibasso dzero
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y4ThpTG7Us...0/D-ZERO-C.jpg

which the situation is even more complex for DACs:

There's so many factors that affect the final sound:

1)Power Supply: Noise Filter/Rejection, Stability, Transient Response Time
2)USB/Input receiver implementation, Jitter Rejection
3)Master clock
4)DAC Chip
5)Brickwall/Analog/Digital Filtering
6)Output Circuitry topology/Opamps/capacitors.

video on same topic:


Audio Jitter is machiam like the hand reaction of the conductor of a symphony. If the violin comes a few picosecond later, it won't sound right to the discerning classical music lover. :D

Questor 16-09-2014 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88536668)
Audio Jitter is machiam like the hand reaction of the conductor of a symphony. If the violin comes a few picosecond later, it won't sound right to the discerning classical music lover. :D

I don't think that's what jitter sounds like (you can play with a Audiophilleo usb/spdif converter which mimics jitter), though improving jitter does help with timing. Extending or shorter decay is usually caused by something else, IMO.

If jitter were the biggest issue, chord's qbd76hd would have been closest to perfect with its buffer.

Since you like quotes, this is one from Charles Hansen - "The end result will depend on how well your external DAC rejects jitter. Unfortunately there is no such thing as an S/PDIF DAC that completely rejects jitter, except for the Chord. It has a big buffer and it takes 4 seconds after you hit play before you hear music. "
Computer Audio Asylum

The reality is that it isn't the best still, and even with the buffer, you can improve the sound by improving the transport. I kept it for several years before moving on after upgrading it twice.



Not really sure where this discussion is going. I'll just say it's good to know and understand the theory, but listening is still the best determinant because there are too many unknowns in audio that are discernible at the moment, unfortunately. More expensive or better spec doesn't mean better sounding. And in a complete hifi system, there are probably equally or more important components to look at, such as transport, usb power and pre-amp. IMO.

Remember back in the day when async usb was supposed to solve our computer audio issues, and yet now actually we are finding computer audio is far more sensitive than one could have imagined? :)

We have to remember music is something emotional and personal. It isn't a game to see what is faster/more accurate. Just like how the best ingredients doesn't translate to the most satisfying food.. sometimes a really nice chicken rice beats everything.

I have to question if when you listen to live music, can you really hear all those micro details of the violin? Personally even with unamplified performance for a crowd of 10, seated just steps away, I can't hear as much as from my hifi system... is it important to be able to hear that much to enjoy? Not saying that it's not good to pursue that as a hobby, but that other elements of the music can be more important that we should never forget about.

Often for people in this hobby, I always see comments that they have higher performance after upgrading, but music is not enjoyable for some other reason (which may spur on more upgrading). To me, that's someone who went off the path.. because music should ALWAYS be enjoyable as a core criteria.

dqwong 16-09-2014 11:28 AM

There's still alot of mystery behind jitter like why or how it happens.

Athough now we have come to a point where there's an atomic clock for audio purposes: :s22:

10M Rubidium atomic clock | Antelope Audio Blog

Things will keep changing for the better or worse.

We went from Vinyl to Tapes to CDs to SACD to Mp3 to AAC to DSD128/256/512

I agree that audio is like food. Some may like the sound from their television speakers more than the sound that's coming out from a 20k home theater.

Just like any other hobbies like photography or cars, there's no such thing as a perfect camera or a perfect car.

We as humans is always thinking of ways to build/buy a better mousetrap. :)

As I am upgrading my equipment to a higher tier, I am hearing more details in my music that wasn't noticeable before, sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse. Too much detail/resolution/accuracy isn't necessary a good thing.

Ignorance is bliss like they say, especially in this hobby where there's no end to "upgrading". :D

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/k...he-music-7.png

Questor 16-09-2014 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88542308)
As I am upgrading my equipment to a higher tier, I am hearing more details in my music that wasn't noticeable before, sometimes it's for the better, sometimes it's for the worse. Too much detail/resolution/accuracy isn't necessary a good thing.

Mysteries I'm talking about are something far fetched.. something along the lines of why turning on or off my unused power sockets (with nothing attached) in the audio room will affect the sound, even when I'm on a dedicated line (I actually have 3 for my hifi).

I have tried clocks and again, doesn't mean better.. guess what, even what cable you use for the clocking also changes the sound.

As for details - I think more is better. I feel the issue is whether the sound is balanced when you elevate one characteristic.. it's just like you added a bit more salt in your food, you may need to adjust the blend of spices so it doesn't taste too salty.

Similarly, since you mention camera, hobbyists often focus too much on the camera/lens and not enough on how to take a great photograph. What captures life is not just determined by a great camera/lens.. just like in hifi, while a equipment can be really good in the lab or measure well, at anyone else's place, it will sound totally different.

Enjoy. :)

dqwong 17-09-2014 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questor (Post 88551973)
Mysteries I'm talking about are something far fetched.. something along the lines of why turning on or off my unused power sockets (with nothing attached) in the audio room will affect the sound, even when I'm on a dedicated line (I actually have 3 for my hifi).

I have tried clocks and again, doesn't mean better.. guess what, even what cable you use for the clocking also changes the sound.

As for details - I think more is better. I feel the issue is whether the sound is balanced when you elevate one characteristic.. it's just like you added a bit more salt in your food, you may need to adjust the blend of spices so it doesn't taste too salty.

Similarly, since you mention camera, hobbyists often focus too much on the camera/lens and not enough on how to take a great photograph. What captures life is not just determined by a great camera/lens.. just like in hifi, while a equipment can be really good in the lab or measure well, at anyone else's place, it will sound totally different.

Enjoy. :)

There's so much variables in the audio chain that it's mind bongling to think of all things that affect the final audio output.

So far my best sounding setup(Non-AC Powered) is

Ipad 2 with Accudio Pro(Player with EQ) > Camera Connection Kit > Centrance Dacport(USB Y Spitter with usb power bank) > Headphones.


The problem with good equipment/playback system is that the extra bass, resolution and detail gets fatiguing for the ears/brains to keep up.

Sometimes you just want to relax and listen to some background music and not overly analyze the music.

E.g. if the same song is played on radio, due to the lower SNR/loudness compression of radio transmission, it sounds so much more relaxing to listen to vs the flac version that I have which has too much dynamic range and tend to bombard your auditory system with more loudness changes, sibilance and etc.

It's like viewing an oil painting of scenery(easy to understand) vs a HD video of the scenery on a 4K OLED 80" display(information overkill).

This is especially with the latest ESS DACs(almost all of them), where they tend to sound more aggressive/attacking/revealing/forward with the drums and cymbals.

Questor 17-09-2014 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dqwong (Post 88562097)
The problem with good equipment/playback system is that the extra bass, resolution and detail gets fatiguing for the ears/brains to keep up.

I still don't agree with this point. :)

If you want to feel relaxed, then listen to relaxing music.. you can't expect to listen to heavy metal to relax. If relaxing music is fatiguing, then something is wrong.

If you find watching 4K OLED 80" display is fatiguing, it's partially because it's calibrated wrongly. A well calibrated display should be natural to the eyes.. you can't judge based on some display in a shop which is tweaked to maximise dynamic contrast for 'wow factor'. The other factors are of course how the way the light is transmitted, and that's why I prefer projectors still, but that's a separate discussion.


Back to music - rarely do people complain that real life non-amplified music is fatiguing right?

If you have heard a truly well balanced system, it will sound very natural despite all the high resolution and details. You can then just pick what music fits your mood, and the loudness you want to play at.. just play it lower if it's meant for background.. but having said that, trying to alter the way we listen means that we aren't really listening the way the artiste wanted us to do so.

This balance is achieved not by buying equipment (though matching helps), but by careful arrangement and set up of the whole system.


To give you a funny example - my AK120II's decay and resonance of instruments is affected when I put on some plastic protectors onto the back and sides of the device. While it is a relatively small change, the perception of how we hear the sound is then affected in a way that makes me feel the music is more closed in, slightly more rushed, etc and not natural.

To achieve real balance, we need to pay attention to all the small things.. as another example, I find that FLAC changes the timbre or tone of the sound and is not acceptable to me at all.

All these also depends on how particular you are and how perceptive are you.. back to food analogy, an amateur will probably only be able to say if the food is good or not, and may be willing to accept more compromise especially if you've not tasted better. Only when you are seasoned, will you know if something is off, and only the veterans will be able to precisely tell you what is wrong - e.g. marinated too long by 10 seconds.

Noirkw 17-09-2014 04:33 PM

I disagree on the issue that Audio GD should be avoided. My own experience with their Compass 2 and the discontinued 'FUN' model left me largely impressed at its SQ. The Compass 2 is an excellent DAC/AMP hybrid which I would highly recommend for a mid range "all in 1" box. Aesthetics wise of course it doesn't look appealing, but Audio GD is a fully discrete system with Qing Hwa designing each model on his own as opposed to just filling in OPamps and hoping listeners can't tell the difference (Dark Star :s8:)

Granted, I have not heard his "Diamond Difference output" stage on the master series but he is extremely transparent on his designs and allow them in full view on his website. So as long as anyone with at least an engineering background could "decipher" his products. You don't get that very often.

So what if he produces a billion products a year? As long as it gets better each time, why not? If you purchase a product, obviously its going to depreciate and have an "upgrade" sooner or later.


Then again I'm pretty happy with my Uber'd Bifrost. It's serving well and extremely enjoyable each time. Music is all about listening pleasure, after all, not the technological "my rig is more expensive than yours" chase.

sky37 17-09-2014 11:28 PM

Just enjoy the music ;)

dqwong 18-09-2014 02:09 AM

I think so far the reviews/feedback of the latest audio gd 2013/2014 line has been very favorable on headfi and other review sites.

Well let's just see how the audio gd master 7 will turn out to be. So far my emails have been promptly reply and they are very honest and upfront on their product. The master 7 look pretty similar in chassis layout to esoteric audio where the power supply is separated and each channel has its own pcb.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp...ogdref71_7.jpg

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/esoteric12/18.jpg

dqwong 28-09-2014 12:26 PM

This is interesting: it takes 24hours for a DAC to reach it's stability(jitter wise).

Quote:

Cold At startup, we see at 1Hz, a dBc (decibels relative to the carrier signal) of -73. However, notice the spike from 6Hz to 11Hz. There is a significant rise in phase noise within this range. Also notice how ragged the response is from 1Hz to 100Hz. This volatility will have effects on the DAC chips ability to recreate an accurate waveform. Jitter is measured at 3.7pSeconds.
15 Minutes Here we begin to see a slight drop in noise at 1Hz (-.8dBc), as well as a reduction of the cold-related spike (6Hz to 11Hz). Things appear as though theyre about to begin tracking nicely. Jitter is measured at 1.4pSeconds.

1 Hour We begin to see the settling process occur. The measured performance takes a significant turn for the worse. At 1Hz, phase noise has risen by 11dBc. However, the good news is that the initial spike from 6 to 11Hz has not returned. But overall, we are seeing a much noisier signal. Additionally, notice that the response is more ragged than it was when tested in the 15-minute range. This will have a very negative impact on the DACs ability to output an accurate (and pleasant) musical signal. Jitter has risen significantly to 5.7pSeconds.

24 Hours At this point and beyond, the DAC appears to have reached a stasis. Notice that the response is now very stable, that there is a smooth line from 1Hz all the way out to 1kHz. At its greatest point, the delta in phase noise has improved by 17.2dBc over the initial cold test. We can now begin to critically listen to this DAC, confident that our findings will be accurate and illuminating. Jitter is dropped and settled at an astonishingly low level of 0.85pSeconds.

Audio-based jitter is most accurately measured from 1Hz to 100Hz range. This is where averaging cannot correct or hide errors as easily as it does at say 1KHz. Ironically, most published jitter measurements are given at this frequency range.

How does a high level of phase noise affect our music? While its hard to draw a simple conclusion that will apply to all DACs, its absolutely clear that higher levels of phase noise create higher levels of jitter. And higher levels of jitter correlate to poor sound; the more jitter, the worse the sound.

If youre auditioning a new DAC whether for personal purchase, store merchandise, or critical review be patient and give that contestant a day to warm up, so that it can truly strut its stuff.
AudioQuest White Paper: Evaluation of Digital Devices and Proper Warm-Up for Ideal Listening and Measurements | AudioStream

weng 28-09-2014 02:29 PM

So just leave the dac on 24/7 :D

bangdoll 28-09-2014 02:33 PM

Interesting but I already know liao :s13:

derazor 30-09-2014 09:14 AM

Maybe bypass digital, listen to vinyl will not have such issues haha


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