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Old 10-03-2016, 08:03 PM   #8971
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ZT0454 and ZT0452 come to mind. Notice i never said that they 'copied' the Shiro, but that it was inspired by it.
But that ZTs are designed by Sinkevich, which also collaborated with Shiro recently, so maybe it has some eastern European elements in it
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:07 PM   #8972
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ZT0454 and ZT0452 come to mind. Notice i never said that they 'copied' the Shiro, but that it was inspired by it.

The Benchmade 710 also has some similarities to a Shiro.

Of course, there also exists the possibility that my claim may be completely wrong.
454 and 452 are designed by Sinkevich, who collaborates with Shiro. His collab with Shiro (same design) is called the koordinal, which was released before the ZT collabs. 0452 and 0454 is his collab with ZT on the same design. 710 does t look like any shiro....hmmm, that's a really old design by McHenry and Williams from the 1990s. If there's any influencing, it's likely the other way round by the early Shiros copying Spyderco and benchmade designs like the AFCK. See the tabargan and eArlier models.
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:15 PM   #8973
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454 and 452 are designed by Sinkevich, who collaborates with Shiro. His collab with Shiro (same design) is called the koordinal, which was released before the ZT collabs. 0452 and 0454 is his collab with ZT on the same design. 710 does t look like any shiro....hmmm, that's a really old design by McHenry and Williams from the 1990s. If there's any influencing, it's likely the other way round by the early Shiros copying Spyderco and benchmade designs like the AFCK. See the tabargan and eArlier models.
Seems like i am wrong. Guess that is what happens when i make claims with minimal research. my bad.
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:37 PM   #8974
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1 thing i think everyone is forgetting is about the skills needed for the knife. Knife is not just about hardware, you cant simply put together a knife with some parts. From the reviews on the clones, the prrfectly centered knife and the flipping action requires a skilled craftsman. Its no longer the story about some factory worker able to do the same. On the other hand, the sharpening also requires skill, even if its done by machine. Someone have to manage it and test it.
Also, do note that that americans and europeans are also outsourcing their jobs out. Fox has been making knives for higher end knives for others, almost shutting their own brand.( authorised clones?)
I would say, in maybe 1 or 2 years more, after some talented chinese designers join the chinese market, we may be talking about some 'dragon' brand same time next year
Truely, a clone is something that destroys the intellectual property. But with the expertise and knowledge, say maybe 5 to 10 years ahead of china and they cant attract enough bussiness to survive, i can say they are doing a really bad job

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Old 10-03-2016, 08:49 PM   #8975
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1 thing i think everyone is forgetting is about the skills needed for the knife. Knife is not just about hardware, you cant simply put together a knife with some parts. From the reviews on the clones, the prrfectly centered knife and the flipping action requires a skilled craftsman. Its no longer the story about some factory worker able to do the same. On the other hand, the sharpening also requires skill, even if its done by machine. Someone have to manage it and test it.
Also, do note that that americans and europeans are also outsourcing their jobs out. Fox has been making knives for higher end knives for others, almost shutting their own brand.( authorised clones?)
I would say, in maybe 1 or 2 years more, after some talented chinese designers join the chinese market, we may be talking about some 'dragon' brand same time next year
Truely, a clone is something that destroys the intellectual property. But with the expertise and knowledge, say maybe 5 to 10 years ahead of china and they cant attract enough bussiness to survive, i can say they are doing a really bad job
Shikiwaru has pointed out a good point, clones and legit ones belongs to separate markets. In terms of economic theory, they are not substitutes, nor compliment. If the sales of clones affected the sales of the company, it just means people are losing patience and loyalty to the original
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Old 10-03-2016, 08:53 PM   #8976
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Seems like i am wrong. Guess that is what happens when i make claims with minimal research. my bad.
it's all good...this is the right place for open discussion as I mentioned, Benchmade aint no saint either...

1 thing i think everyone is forgetting is about the skills needed for the knife. Knife is not just about hardware, you cant simply put together a knife with some parts. From the reviews on the clones, the prrfectly centered knife and the flipping action requires a skilled craftsman. Its no longer the story about some factory worker able to do the same. On the other hand, the sharpening also requires skill, even if its done by machine. Someone have to manage it and test it.
Also, do note that that americans and europeans are also outsourcing their jobs out. Fox has been making knives for higher end knives for others, almost shutting their own brand.( authorised clones?)
I would say, in maybe 1 or 2 years more, after some talented chinese designers join the chinese market, we may be talking about some 'dragon' brand same time next year
the issue about replicas and clones isn't that it doesn't require skill. It's about stealing a design and profiting off it. China does have skilled labour - otherwise they cannot be a global heavyweight. BUt knifemaking is about both the designing and the manufacturing/making. The Chinese clone makers are copying the designs....not the manufacturing. They've been doing that for a long time already, making knives for foreign manufacturers. So have the Japanese and Taiwanese. You could have a factory doing OEM work for CKF in the day, and in the night doing its own copy of the Shiro Neon and calling it 'Vespa' (you know, I think they copied my username as well as the word Vespa has not been associated with knife before me...I think! lol :p)

Some manufacturing processes are also patented (for eg, timascus) so if you're making timascus using the same method as AKS, then you're also stealing their IPR.

There was a time when Chinese makers would work with buyers to buy knives from overseas markets, in order to reverse engineer and recreate. These days, they are much more skilled - I believe they can even copy and produce even without laying their hands on the actual knife.

I can't read Chinese but I think you can get a lot of information from the chinese knifeforums like knifriend.

Last edited by vespaguy; 10-03-2016 at 08:57 PM..
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Old 10-03-2016, 09:43 PM   #8977
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the issue about replicas and clones isn't that it doesn't require skill. It's about stealing a design and profiting off it. China does have skilled labour - otherwise they cannot be a global heavyweight. BUt knifemaking is about both the designing and the manufacturing/making. The Chinese clone makers are copying the designs....not the manufacturing. They've been doing that for a long time already, making knives for foreign manufacturers. So have the Japanese and Taiwanese. You could have a factory doing OEM work for CKF in the day, and in the night doing its own copy of the Shiro Neon and calling it 'Vespa' (you know, I think they copied my username as well as the word Vespa has not been associated with knife before me...I think! lol :p)

Some manufacturing processes are also patented (for eg, timascus) so if you're making timascus using the same method as AKS, then you're also stealing their IPR.

There was a time when Chinese makers would work with buyers to buy knives from overseas markets, in order to reverse engineer and recreate. These days, they are much more skilled - I believe they can even copy and produce even without laying their hands on the actual knife.

I can't read Chinese but I think you can get a lot of information from the chinese knifeforums like knifriend.
I understand your arguement on the intellectual property. But think about it, these knife makers are not even putting the name and logo of the original copy( meaning they are not trying to sell of as real). This is indeed a breach of copyright of some sort. But as i said about quality and other issue, it can never replace an original. This means they can never affect the originals sale. And they are not trying to do that. They are just offering a market for people that are looking for more well designed knives with tighter pocket. Which in the case of custom makers, are never considering to enter.

If they become something like the fake lv or coach makers in china, i think that will really be something to be hated
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Old 11-03-2016, 11:45 AM   #8978
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I understand your arguement on the intellectual property. But think about it, these knife makers are not even putting the name and logo of the original copy( meaning they are not trying to sell of as real). This is indeed a breach of copyright of some sort. But as i said about quality and other issue, it can never replace an original. This means they can never affect the originals sale. And they are not trying to do that. They are just offering a market for people that are looking for more well designed knives with tighter pocket. Which in the case of custom makers, are never considering to enter.

If they become something like the fake lv or coach makers in china, i think that will really be something to be hated
To the uninitiated,how would they know that it doesn't come close to the original? If the clone is crap, they might think the original is crap too. This potentially means that if they were intending to get an original, they would now not do so. This isn't a fair situation by any means... But if they bought the clones for the ergos and the ergos on the clone sucks (maybe it's not contoured, or has hot spots), they might think the same of the original.

Additionally, let's say you have "X" custom and there are 10 of them in the world... Won't having 10000 other clones spoil the 'exclusivity' a little? I can say I have a 1 in 10 custom,but 10000 other people can say that they held the clone and it sucks. When this gets rampant... Do you think the price of the original will go down? In my humble opinion, I do think so, even if it's a little. It robs people of the exclusivity of collecting.

I'll put the example of the custom munroe sigil mk3 the out there. Munroe does some pretty good work on his customs. That being said, the collabs are in many people's eyes, quite badly made. People then approach munroe and say well done, etc (coz of the hype) ... Now you have one, he has one, everybody has a 'mk3', whether it's a custom or not. Those who have the custom mk3s see the values fall and those who have the collabs are put off from buying the customs because of the sub-par action (in my opinion). Of course I'm nt saying the collab is a clone,it's not. But I hope you can see the parallel I'm trying to draw here.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:36 PM   #8979
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Which designs are these? I'm not aware of Benchmade and ZT copying or infringing Shirogorov but it would be interesting to see. However, two wrongs do not make a right. IF they're copying then they're stealing as well. I know that Benchmade stole the Spyderco hole TM from Spyderco - it was settled in a non-legal fashion but it showed the moral standing of Les De Asis. Sal Glesser on the other hand, has shown that he is a more ethical man. Tony Marfione also showed that he was unethical by ripping off ZT's 0777 when he produced the Matrix - my respect for him dropped several more notches (apart from his poor customer service).

Conducting business ethically isn't easy. But it's doable. It does come at a price, and with a substantial sacrifice.
That has always been the case. Spyderco was always on the good side of in terms of intellectual property.

Just look at the Sage series and see how they credit the original inventors of the lock types. Honestly, they could just not sweat the minor details (especially since many of those founders are no longer alive), but they chose to do it.

They also don't go about ripping off Emerson's Wave feature like many other companies/makers; they made sure to credit them properly.
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Old 11-03-2016, 05:14 PM   #8980
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To the uninitiated,how would they know that it doesn't come close to the original? If the clone is crap, they might think the original is crap too. This potentially means that if they were intending to get an original, they would now not do so. This isn't a fair situation by any means... But if they bought the clones for the ergos and the ergos on the clone sucks (maybe it's not contoured, or has hot spots), they might think the same of the original.

Additionally, let's say you have "X" custom and there are 10 of them in the world... Won't having 10000 other clones spoil the 'exclusivity' a little? I can say I have a 1 in 10 custom,but 10000 other people can say that they held the clone and it sucks. When this gets rampant... Do you think the price of the original will go down? In my humble opinion, I do think so, even if it's a little. It robs people of the exclusivity of collecting.

I'll put the example of the custom munroe sigil mk3 the out there. Munroe does some pretty good work on his customs. That being said, the collabs are in many people's eyes, quite badly made. People then approach munroe and say well done, etc (coz of the hype) ... Now you have one, he has one, everybody has a 'mk3', whether it's a custom or not. Those who have the custom mk3s see the values fall and those who have the collabs are put off from buying the customs because of the sub-par action (in my opinion). Of course I'm nt saying the collab is a clone,it's not. But I hope you can see the parallel I'm trying to draw here.
I dont think that will ever be the case. As far as the top few clone makers are doing, its just work knife without even logo, or just their own logo. (Kevin john and green thorn us their own carrying case)
On the other hand, when people are buying knife from say aliexpress, they know they are not getting the real deal.
However, some sales do get affected, like the sharp corners on shirogorovs that is discussed online, which is cloned.(shiro own design) these are things that cut their sales.
As far as your arguement goes, its like saying gold dealers' bussiness is affected by the sales of impure gold from smaller firms.
If those that buy from aliexpress is really as you say, they think that the clone they own is the real deal, it just means that they are never going to be the legit custom makers' customer. Not due to the clone, but because they simply doesnt realise the value of custom.
Last but not least, i think we should all realise the market that lower end production knife makers are providing for: they are legit, they are the majority, they wan something good with whatever budget they have. If they do have the budget, they will all be waiting for custom. Customs will be selling like hot potatoes. Instead of hating the clone buyer and makers, why not think about the world condition?
On the other hand. Some custom makers are combating them through collaborations. The kershaw cyro from himderer, made the xm 18 clone practically dirt cheap, stopping the production pretty much.

Last edited by zzcisapro; 11-03-2016 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 11-03-2016, 07:26 PM   #8981
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I dont think that will ever be the case. As far as the top few clone makers are doing, its just work knife without even logo, or just their own logo. (Kevin john and green thorn us their own carrying case)
On the other hand, when people are buying knife from say aliexpress, they know they are not getting the real deal.
However, some sales do get affected, like the sharp corners on shirogorovs that is discussed online, which is cloned.(shiro own design) these are things that cut their sales.
As far as your arguement goes, its like saying gold dealers' bussiness is affected by the sales of impure gold from smaller firms.
If those that buy from aliexpress is really as you say, they think that the clone they own is the real deal, it just means that they are never going to be the legit custom makers' customer. Not due to the clone, but because they simply doesnt realise the value of custom.
Last but not least, i think we should all realise the market that lower end production knife makers are providing for: they are legit, they are the majority, they wan something good with whatever budget they have. If they do have the budget, they will all be waiting for custom. Customs will be selling like hot potatoes. Instead of hating the clone buyer and makers, why not think about the world condition?
On the other hand. Some custom makers are combating them through collaborations. The kershaw cyro from himderer, made the xm 18 clone practically dirt cheap, stopping the production pretty much.
this appears to justify the copying, stealing and manufacturing of proprietary designs without acknowledging that these designs belong to the designer, owner? One should remember that these designs are not free for the world at large. it doesn't matter if the markets are different, if sales are affected or otherwise, or, if the clone makers put on a logo or otherwise, or, if it serves the needs of those who don't want to pony up the price to buy the real mccoy. that view favours the buyer who wants the look and feel (or what appears to him to be the look and feel) of the genuine item without acknowledging the value of the IPR that belongs to the designer/owner and accordingly paying for it.

whilst the sale of a clone GTC knife at $60 may not affect Gus Cechinni's wallet, it is still a theft of his IPR. Nobody likes to be robbed, even if it is overcharging a millionaire $1 for his pizza.

theft of, copying, counterfeiting, cloning of another's designs is just that what it is - a criminal offense in some instances and an assault on ethics in every instance. They may not be life or death issues but they do tug at our moral fibres.....for some, a serious tug..for others, a feathery touch.

that being said, I'm no saint myself - I do own a clone knife which I have yet to carry or use. It's a far cry from the original but it has better blade grinds

Last edited by vespaguy; 11-03-2016 at 07:30 PM..
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:09 PM   #8982
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this appears to justify the copying, stealing and manufacturing of proprietary designs without acknowledging that these designs belong to the designer, owner? One should remember that these designs are not free for the world at large. it doesn't matter if the markets are different, if sales are affected or otherwise, or, if the clone makers put on a logo or otherwise, or, if it serves the needs of those who don't want to pony up the price to buy the real mccoy. that view favours the buyer who wants the look and feel (or what appears to him to be the look and feel) of the genuine item without acknowledging the value of the IPR that belongs to the designer/owner and accordingly paying for it.

whilst the sale of a clone GTC knife at $60 may not affect Gus Cechinni's wallet, it is still a theft of his IPR. Nobody likes to be robbed, even if it is overcharging a millionaire $1 for his pizza.

theft of, copying, counterfeiting, cloning of another's designs is just that what it is - a criminal offense in some instances and an assault on ethics in every instance. They may not be life or death issues but they do tug at our moral fibres.....for some, a serious tug..for others, a feathery touch.

that being said, I'm no saint myself - I do own a clone knife which I have yet to carry or use. It's a far cry from the original but it has better blade grinds
I totally agree with you on the topic that it is considered stealing, or even robbing. But from all the arguement i made, i just wanna make us remember that clones is somewhat a necessary evil. I owned a fake extrama ratio. Bought it off carousell when i just started collecting knife. The opening and stuff is ok. The weight is sturdy. But the blade is crap. It rolls even when cutting comms cord. I juse sharpens it up and use as a hammer now.

On a side note, where is the best place to get a reate knife? A pm will be great
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:24 PM   #8983
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this appears to justify the copying, stealing and manufacturing of proprietary designs without acknowledging that these designs belong to the designer, owner? One should remember that these designs are not free for the world at large. it doesn't matter if the markets are different, if sales are affected or otherwise, or, if the clone makers put on a logo or otherwise, or, if it serves the needs of those who don't want to pony up the price to buy the real mccoy. that view favours the buyer who wants the look and feel (or what appears to him to be the look and feel) of the genuine item without acknowledging the value of the IPR that belongs to the designer/owner and accordingly paying for it.

whilst the sale of a clone GTC knife at $60 may not affect Gus Cechinni's wallet, it is still a theft of his IPR. Nobody likes to be robbed, even if it is overcharging a millionaire $1 for his pizza.

theft of, copying, counterfeiting, cloning of another's designs is just that what it is - a criminal offense in some instances and an assault on ethics in every instance. They may not be life or death issues but they do tug at our moral fibres.....for some, a serious tug..for others, a feathery touch.

that being said, I'm no saint myself - I do own a clone knife which I have yet to carry or use. It's a far cry from the original but it has better blade grinds
What about knives that are clearly not stolen designs, but stamped with a brand name that is unauthorized?

If you take a look around Ali and DHgate, you will find lots of "Bokers", "Bucks" and "Brownings" being sold that have totally nothing in common with any of the legitimate brand's knives or knife designs. Some of those original designs even look superior to the legitimate brand's lineup. Even though those are made of bottom-end 3Cr13 steel, i like those designs enough to actually consider getting a ton of them for edc and scratching out the unauthorized use of the brand name from the handle and the blade.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:32 PM   #8984
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What about knives that are clearly not stolen designs, but stamped with a brand name that is unauthorized?

If you take a look around Ali and DHgate, you will find lots of "Bokers", "Bucks" and "Brownings" being sold that have totally nothing in common with any of the legitimate brand's knives or knife designs. Some of those original designs even look superior to the legitimate brand's lineup. Even though those are made of bottom-end 3Cr13 steel, i like those designs enough to actually consider getting a ton of them for edc and scratching out the unauthorized use of the brand name from the handle and the blade.
Trademark infringement and morally wrong too. That's stealing the goodwill attached to a name/brand.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:42 PM   #8985
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On a side note, where is the best place to get a reate knife? A pm will be great
Which model are you looking at? If you're looking at the blackwashed Hills like the one I have, I've got a good US-based site for you.
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