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Air conditioning - Any recommendations please??

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Old 02-09-2009, 12:17 PM   #826
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My advice, get a good installer (which comes @ a higher price). Leave it to them to do the job. Cos if you watch them install and "teach" or "request" them what to do. This might make them very uncomfortable to work. There are many ways for them to sabo u.

The installers are just workers or contractors of the company. Treat them a bit nice, like buying lunch for them. Tell them that this aircon system might last you for 5-10 years and hope they can do their best to lay the pipings nicely so that it can last you through the years w/o much problems.

No person in the service line wants a demanding/"smart alec" customer. Treat them nice and the serviceman might be willing to go the extra mile for you.

Juz my views...
Hi, chunlianghere, terumo, thesingingbard,

Thanks for all your advices.

I also don't wish to be a demanding/"smart alec" customer "teach a father how to corpulate".

I will be there just to over-see the renovations and not give them too much troubles.

I understand what terumo is saying. Yes, if we nasty with them (be it the air-con installers, the carpenters doing my kitchen cabinets), there are many many ways that they can sabo the renovations.

Yes, I understand too, that we have to treat them nicer so that they might be willing to go the extra mile for us.

I have already make up my mind to buy some drinks or snacks up for them when I go "visiting" the renovations.

I know that if we treat them nice, they will do a nice job for us.

I don't mind spending a little bit of money to buy drinks for them in exchange for a trouble-free renovations.

Thanks very much for all your advices.

Really appreciate it very much.

Cheers.
It is better to buy lunch/drink for the installers.. they are human too...
Treat them nice & they will do a good job for you..human nature..

When the 2 tech from GC installed my AC last year Oct, I treated them with lunch
and almost 1 dozen cans of chilled 100plus...
When they doing their jobs, I just sat at hall with my kids watching TV.. just once a while
went over to take a look and chit chat with the more senior tech..
No issue or any problem/leaking with the installation till now..
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:51 PM   #827
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9k btu liquid pipe can use hand to bend. For Gas pipe, recommended to use bender.
And for G22 piping, it's thick. Bending if use hand and not skillful enough, the pipe will suddenly bend inwards and instead of a nice curve, it will be a dent. This is also one of the possible cause of condensation as gas flow is reduced @ that portion and it will be very cold @ that area.
My advice, get a good installer (which comes @ a higher price). Leave it to them to do the job. Cos if you watch them install and "teach" or "request" them what to do. This might make them very uncomfortable to work. There are many ways for them to sabo u.

The installers are just workers or contractors of the company. Treat them a bit nice, like buying lunch for them. Tell them that this aircon system might last you for 5-10 years and hope they can do their best to lay the pipings nicely so that it can last you through the years w/o much problems.

No person in the service line wants a demanding/"smart alec" customer. Treat them nice and the serviceman might be willing to go the extra mile for you.

Juz my views...
hmm..cos i tink tat if the pipe is thicker, than its harder for it to dent inwards as the the cyclindrical area is thicker.

but if is gas pipe for 12,000btu, i know tat diameter of pipe must use bender liao. not to say for 18,000btu. for mine at tat time when install system 4, the living one(18000btu), he use bender for gas pipe.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:47 PM   #828
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9k btu liquid pipe can use hand to bend. For Gas pipe, recommended to use bender.
And for G22 piping, it's thick. Bending if use hand and not skillful enough, the pipe will suddenly bend inwards and instead of a nice curve, it will be a dent. This is also one of the possible cause of condensation as gas flow is reduced @ that portion and it will be very cold @ that area.
My advice, get a good installer (which comes @ a higher price). Leave it to them to do the job. Cos if you watch them install and "teach" or "request" them what to do. This might make them very uncomfortable to work. There are many ways for them to sabo u.

The installers are just workers or contractors of the company. Treat them a bit nice, like buying lunch for them. Tell them that this aircon system might last you for 5-10 years and hope they can do their best to lay the pipings nicely so that it can last you through the years w/o much problems.

No person in the service line wants a demanding/"smart alec" customer. Treat them nice and the serviceman might be willing to go the extra mile for you.

Juz my views...
wahahahaha!

listen to Terumo, he really knows his stuff!

Oei Terumo, you air-con installer is it?

just to add... for refridgerant, the liquid pipes are smaller in diameter (nt: the wall thickness is the same for both liquid & gas) so it is ok to bend with hands with little risk of deforming the cylindrical profile. But for gas pipes, which are larger in diameter, it's best to use bender.

Hm... just one question though... since the gas pipe is for the return line for the refridgerant... i.e. pressure oredi released, if so, it is still impt to maintain the cylindrical profile?

btw, what's the return gas pressure?

i agree with the treating the installer well part too.... I bought them lunch/dinner and 100Plus (6x 1.25Litres bottles).
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:50 PM   #829
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After reading through terumo's posting (quoted by "thesingingbard"), terumo mentioned about bending the copper pipings using benders (the proper tools), think I understand what he means and what a "proper tool" should be.

Thanks everybody for all your valuable advices.

Sorry if I appear stupid here, cos I am not very sure with all these technical stuffs, as I am a Biotech student... So such technical stuffs, not very good at it... Still learning...

Thanks for all your patience.
ai yo... we're all here to learn from each other mah...

dunno abt the rest... but i'm no expert myself, just relating personal experience only.

Btw, my GC installers also had to dismantle the window grills in order to move the compressor onto the air-con latch.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:56 PM   #830
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but than, it is NOT recommeded to cut the copper pipe n join another in. as in joining 2 together. this wil causes leak. n majority leak problem is becos of copper pipe joinin together.
agree... imo joints would inevitably cause pressure drop across them.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:07 PM   #831
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Guys, i going to install a system 3 air-con soon....

Which brands to keep a lookout? Daikin ? Panasonic EnVio? or Mitsubishi Electric?

Going to get a Inventer since my air-con usage will be 8-10 hours per day, sometimes will hit 15 hours per day.

So which brands is good?
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:09 PM   #832
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i'd like to relate an experience... with regards to the pipe bending...

my first air-con (Fujitsu Inverter, R22 gas, 1/2" ARMAFLEX) was installed by a free-lance contractor whom I knew for sometime. Many areas of the trunkings felt cold and subsquently sweating occurred on the trunkings and mold formed on these areas.

as for my 2nd air-con (Toshiba Inverter, R410a, 3/4" ARMAFLEX), so far, other than the sweating/leaking of the drainage pipe, none of the trunkings (including that area which dripped water) felt cool to touch.

Now some may think it's due to the thicker insulator. Well... i also can't say for sure. But one thing i do know is I saw the 2nd installer diligently using the pipe benders while i dun recall seeing my earlier free-lance contractor doing that. There could be a third reason though... my first contractor didn't bother to insulate the drainage pipes, while GC used ARMAFLEX (not the 3/4" one lah! thinner ones) to insulate them.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:59 PM   #833
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i'd like to relate an experience... with regards to the pipe bending...

my first air-con (Fujitsu Inverter, R22 gas, 1/2" ARMAFLEX) was installed by a free-lance contractor whom I knew for sometime. Many areas of the trunkings felt cold and subsquently sweating occurred on the trunkings and mold formed on these areas.

as for my 2nd air-con (Toshiba Inverter, R410a, 3/4" ARMAFLEX), so far, other than the sweating/leaking of the drainage pipe, none of the trunkings (including that area which dripped water) felt cool to touch.

Now some may think it's due to the thicker insulator. Well... i also can't say for sure. But one thing i do know is I saw the 2nd installer diligently using the pipe benders while i dun recall seeing my earlier free-lance contractor doing that. There could be a third reason though... my first contractor didn't bother to insulate the drainage pipes, while GC used ARMAFLEX (not the 3/4" one lah! thinner ones) to insulate them.
yup..i'm listening to Terumo.

oh..like tat i knw y previously u hav sweatin n mould on truckin, cos drainage got no insulation..

same too..hav to remove window grille in order to move the compressor out of the window to bracket. sometimes it is gd to remove the grille, so tat got better workin space to move out.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:00 PM   #834
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For return gas pressure, we talk abt R22 gas, on 1 unit around 60-70 Psi.
For my job. i tink you all sure know already by now. Hee hee...
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:45 PM   #835
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yup..i'm listening to Terumo.

oh..like tat i knw y previously u hav sweatin n mould on truckin, cos drainage got no insulation..

same too..hav to remove window grille in order to move the compressor out of the window to bracket. sometimes it is gd to remove the grille, so tat got better workin space to move out.
hm... actually i thot that was the least likely reason.

i would think that cold water flowing in an un-insulated PVC pipe could cause condensation on the drainage pipes, but to cause massive sweating on the trunkings itself? that i'm not too sure.

my parents' air-con also didn't have insulation over the drainage pipes and for 15 years of usage it did not sweat on the trunkings.

but then... who knows? maybe terumo? actually i was just joking... didn't think he's really in the aircon business
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:48 PM   #836
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For return gas pressure, we talk abt R22 gas, on 1 unit around 60-70 Psi.
For my job. i tink you all sure know already by now. Hee hee...
wow! so you're really in air-con business one arh?

so in your opinion, which air-con and installer would your recommend?

what's your take on inverter versus non-inverter? and what about R22 versus R410a?
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:21 PM   #837
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hm... actually i thot that was the least likely reason.

i would think that cold water flowing in an un-insulated PVC pipe could cause condensation on the drainage pipes, but to cause massive sweating on the trunkings itself? that i'm not too sure.

my parents' air-con also didn't have insulation over the drainage pipes and for 15 years of usage it did not sweat on the trunkings.

but then... who knows? maybe terumo? actually i was just joking... didn't think he's really in the aircon business
haha..i jus guessin the possible reason..
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:43 PM   #838
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Last 10-15 years, no installers thought of insulating the drainage pipe. Recently with the lanuch of R410A (Actually few years back, but equipment using this gas was not too popular back then). Condensate water is getting colder and colder. So drainage pipe also have to be insulated now to min sweating problems.

I would say invertor/non-invertor depends on usage pattern.
But I would say R22 is better then R410a in terms of maintainence issues.
Installer to recommend? No comments on this. Hee...

Daikin Ma56ev16 is quite popular as it can connect to max 4 indoor units, is non-invertor and size ranging from 9k btu to 18k btu indoor unit.
No other brand equipment for non-invertor can match wat Ma56 has to offer in my knowledge if i am not wrong.
Other brands non-invertor usually max up to 3 indoor units, dual compressors, all indoor has to be 9k btu unit.
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Old 03-09-2009, 10:42 AM   #839
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Last 10-15 years, no installers thought of insulating the drainage pipe. Recently with the lanuch of R410A (Actually few years back, but equipment using this gas was not too popular back then). Condensate water is getting colder and colder. So drainage pipe also have to be insulated now to min sweating problems.

I would say invertor/non-invertor depends on usage pattern.
But I would say R22 is better then R410a in terms of maintainence issues.
Installer to recommend? No comments on this. Hee...

Daikin Ma56ev16 is quite popular as it can connect to max 4 indoor units, is non-invertor and size ranging from 9k btu to 18k btu indoor unit.
No other brand equipment for non-invertor can match wat Ma56 has to offer in my knowledge if i am not wrong.
Other brands non-invertor usually max up to 3 indoor units, dual compressors, all indoor has to be 9k btu unit.
hm... perhaps Chunliang was right afterall... but then... my old Fujitsu was using R22... anyhow, that's in the past! yhew!

Daikin eh? hm... I guess i'd try Daikin next.... hopefully over 10 years later.

with regards to performance, any significant diff betw R22 & R410a? i've read claims that R410a is more efficient as a refridgerant, what's your opinion?
Chunliang, any thoughts on this?
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:05 AM   #840
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For return gas pressure, we talk abt R22 gas, on 1 unit around 60-70 Psi.
For my job. i tink you all sure know already by now. Hee hee...
Since there is a possibility of terumo being an air-con contractor or in the air-con business, I am not sure whether there is any "conflict of interest" or "spoil the market" or "breach of any regulations" with revealing what my ID's air-con contractor has quoted me.

I received his quotation via e-mail. He qouted me a price with all these :
(1) Panas0nic Multi Split unit model : CU-3C20JKZ X 1,
(2) Panas0nic Model : CS-C9JKZW fan coils X 3,
quotation includes supply and installation charges, includes trunking, copper pipes, Thermosflex insulation CIs (3/4" with 3 years warranty)
(3) This quotation not includes power supply.

Can I ask what is meant by this "does not include power supply"?? What does he mean by the "power supply"??

Also, Thermosflex is better than Armaflex, right??

Sorry, almost forgot to mention that my air-con contractor SMS last night that I will get the NTUC vouchers.

Guess I will sign the quotation with him, since his offer is better than the other contractors, which I have asked to come take a look at my 4-room HDB.

If one is interested to know what price, do PM me. I don't wish to get into any form of trouble with revealing the price here.

And if you find it cheap and interested to install for your home, I can recommend the air-con contractor to you.

Sorry, terumo, don't mean to "undercut" you or "spoil your business" here, if you are really in the air-con business.

Last edited by seahmh; 03-09-2009 at 11:20 AM..
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