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Old 15-07-2020, 07:52 PM   #31
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People trying to clarify some basic physics laws already you say they trying to act as experts. If I say a person fall from 20 storey building almost certainly body cannot take it will die, then I am medical expert ah....

Read some of your posts, you quite expert also lei.

And don't understand what you mean. So you're saying some audio cables can make air molecules store more energy then chut more power like half a second later?
Its not the store more energy. Its affect the waves mainly due to 3 factors, inductance, capacitance and resistance.

Eg, capacitance tends to smooth out the sound, it means the peaks will be more rounded, not so sharp. then minor variations well be less pronounced. Resistance is attenuation.

But the LCR of cable is also affected by frequency. They are not linear throughout the entire frequency range.

Manufacturers try different ways to change properties of their cables. Eg, nordost . Their flat cables. Its just like litz wire. But instead of bundle up together, they separate them out. A simple amplitude over frequency graph is unlikely to shown difference. But when plotted over time? The slope of a rise in amplitude may be different? Peak may be different.

I am also curious, want to quantify all these just like you. I also believe all the characteristics of sound can be explained. But its very difficult to perform. Need sound proof room with those spike foam to prevent reflection etc. Then highly sensitive equipment to capture all these minute variations. Even down to cables (eg. shielding) because environment factors may alter the results. Even ground vibration also plays a part.

And then equipment characteristics also changes with temperature. I think wennze talk about more bass with climate change. BJT, capacitors, resistors etc.. all changes with temp. Thats why amps sounds louder and usually better when warmed up. So, how do you ensure the experiment is repeatable? Minise alll other variants?

Lastly, microphone are just like speakers, perfect microphone doesn't exist. How well can it pick up the signals? Eg, when something of highly varying amplitude and frequency? Is it able to capture it well? Many things to consider.
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:04 PM   #32
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So u saying just spend more?
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:41 PM   #33
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Its not the store more energy. Its affect the waves mainly due to 3 factors, inductance, capacitance and resistance.

Eg, capacitance tends to smooth out the sound, it means the peaks will be more rounded, not so sharp. then minor variations well be less pronounced. Resistance is attenuation.

But the LCR of cable is also affected by frequency. They are not linear throughout the entire frequency range.
Yes, these properties all sound very important. But eventually the electrical signals move the speaker voice coil vibrate the air and transmit sound to your ears. No air = no sound. All the electrical properties in the world don't mean a thing if the sound energy captured by the microphone look the same.

Since the claim is different cables have 'clear' sonic differences, actually capturing these differences first is more important. If these sonic differences are captured and can actually be heard by multiple people's ears, we can then talk about things like electrical variables.


Manufacturers try different ways to change properties of their cables. Eg, nordost . Their flat cables. Its just like litz wire. But instead of bundle up together, they separate them out. A simple amplitude over frequency graph is unlikely to shown difference. But when plotted over time? The slope of a rise in amplitude may be different? Peak may be different.
First, you do agree that in order for human to hear a song, that song has to be between 20-20kHz right?

Pink / white noise is sound generated across all the audible frequencies, and frequently used for audio testing.
A rise in amplitude over time....it means the song is getting louder and louder with a particular cable?
Or you mean sometimes 100Hz sounds normal, then 0.5s later, 100Hz sounds much louder?


I am also curious, want to quantify all these just like you. I also believe all the characteristics of sound can be explained. But its very difficult to perform. Need sound proof room with those spike foam to prevent reflection etc. Then highly sensitive equipment to capture all these minute variations. Even down to cables (eg. shielding) because environment factors may alter the results. Even ground vibration also plays a part.

And then equipment characteristics also changes with temperature. I think wennze talk about more bass with climate change. BJT, capacitors, resistors etc.. all changes with temp. Thats why amps sounds louder and usually better when warmed up. So, how do you ensure the experiment is repeatable? Minise alll other variants?
Sure, even rotation of Earth can play a part. Or like the butterfly effect. Or say I may wake up one day and I see my blanket on the floor and that variable might mean I going to have accident (touch wood) later, so I decide not to get up.

There are variables that have a real impact and variables that don't. However, audio companies like to tell us a lot of variables matter, that just don't make sense.

Oh and the ASR example that wwenze cited? Maybe you'll have to show me how to achieve winter in SG first? Note that it's also documented in the Klippel measurement system. But trying to extrapolate that specific example to every other component.... is like saying because some humans are thieves, now I have to worry about whether my parents are going to be thieves too?? There are some predictions and estimations that are reasonable, and some that are unrealistic and totally unrelated.


Lastly, microphone are just like speakers, perfect microphone doesn't exist. How well can it pick up the signals? Eg, when something of highly varying amplitude and frequency? Is it able to capture it well? Many things to consider.
So....the perfect ear doesn't exist too, so humans should not hear anything? Or since the perfect mic or perfect room don't exist, recording companies or singers should not make any recordings anymore?

While there are definitely inadequacies in the testing equipment and conditions, when they are known, most of the time they can be compensated for, so that the final data is still useful for proper analysis.

Last edited by lxXXxl; 15-07-2020 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:42 PM   #34
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So u saying just spend more?
Not necessary. But key is getting the sound you like.

Sound is not about what is on the CD, must be exactly the same.... If you listen everything neutral (everything exactly like CD), I can tell you cannot tahan for long. Pple usually like it with a bit of warmth. Vocal a bit more pronounce.

Then specs... is nothing everything. ASR talk so much about low THD. Me like huh?? If low THD is the key, pple would have thrown away their tube amps long ago.... Then vinyl also throw away already.

Me listen to LS35A on tube amp... the feeling is like...wow...... magical. The vocal is just so good..... but tube amp low power and high THD. So is it inferior??
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:44 PM   #35
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Yah but the audio science people say, and I kinda believe them, that as long as speaker is neutral u can EQ to make it sound like any speaker's sound signature.
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:48 PM   #36
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Hopefully one day manufacturers can make a neutral speaker and amp combo that let's u replicate the sound signatures of all iconic speakers in history.
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:53 PM   #37
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Yes, these properties all sound very important. But eventually the electrical signals move the speaker voice coil vibrate the air and transmit sound to your ears. No air = no sound. All the electrical properties in the world don't mean a thing if the sound energy captured by the microphone look the same.

Since the claim is different cables have 'clear' sonic differences, actually capturing these differences first is more important. If these sonic differences are captured and can actually be heard by multiple people's ears, we can then talk about things like electrical variables.




First, you do agree that in order for human to hear a song, that song has to be between 20-20kHz right?

Pink / white noise is sound generated across all the audible frequencies, and frequently used for audio testing.
A rise in amplitude over time....it means the song is getting louder and louder with a particular cable?
Or you mean sometimes 100Hz sounds normal, then 0.5s later, 100Hz sounds much louder?




Sure, even rotation of Earth can play a part. Or like the butterfly effect. Or say I may wake up one day and I see my blanket on the floor and that variable might mean I going to have accident (touch wood) later, so I decide not to get up.

There are variables that have a real impact and variables that don't. However, audio companies like to tell us a lot of variables matter, that just don't make sense.




So....the perfect ear doesn't exist too, so humans should not hear anything? Or since the perfect mic or perfect room don't exist, recording companies or singers should not make any recordings anymore?

While there are definitely inadequacies in the testing equipment and conditions, when they are known, most of the time they can be compensated for, so that the final data is still useful for proper analysis.
Yes, so perhaps you can perform the experiment. Then tell us if there is a difference. I already mentioned why time is the key to the experiment and why frequency sweep alone doesn't say anything.

For equipment etc, we can improve later. But first, we need a 3D map of the sound wave playing certain music. After that, try to relate the pattern to characteristic of the sound. Something like a baseline.
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:56 PM   #38
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I think the lesson we should learn here is to not let some ill mannered fan of audio science spoil the reputation of audio science in general and blind us to its valuable ideas.
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Old 15-07-2020, 08:59 PM   #39
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Yes, so perhaps you can perform the experiment. Then tell us if there is a difference. I already mentioned why time is the key to the experiment and why frequency sweep alone doesn't say anything.

For equipment etc, we can improve later. But first, we need a 3D map of the sound wave playing certain music. After that, try to relate the pattern to characteristic of the sound. Something like a baseline.
Anyone want to loan me some $XXX - $XXXX level of cables?
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:00 PM   #40
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Go beg somewhere else please.
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:00 PM   #41
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Hopefully one day manufacturers can make a neutral speaker and amp combo that let's u replicate the sound signatures of all iconic speakers in history.
You won't want it. Because it will become what pple called too clinical, too analytical. Then it becomes tiring to listen to. Its better more analysing flaws in recording rather than enjoy music.

Getting every detail out of the CD may not be the best. Because of flaws in playing. Nothing is perfect, not even instruments. So, too much detail can become noise. Eg. the sound made by closing and opening of lips. The breathing....minute details..... at first, you will shiok can listen so much details... After some time.... cannot tahan, its distracting.

Thats why many pple still like tube amps. THD is higher than tansistor, not as detailed too, but its just so sweet to the ears.
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:01 PM   #42
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I think the lesson we should learn here is to not let some ill mannered fan of audio science spoil the reputation of audio science in general and blind us to its valuable ideas.
Yah man, bad bad ill mannered fan! So bad!
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:01 PM   #43
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I think u missed what I said about the ability to replicate any sound signature. Like food flavourings nowadays can replicate the taste of different fruits without the actual fruit itself. Now that is science.
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:03 PM   #44
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Anyone want to loan me some $XXX - $XXXX level of cables?
Before we even talk about cables, how about do a 3D map of some music first? I am sure you have some music you listen to often. Then the characteristic of the sound on your system and how it relates to the map.
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Old 15-07-2020, 09:04 PM   #45
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Mathematicians are the true scientists. They will be able to come up with algorithms or whatver to replicate tube sound horn sound or whatever people like.
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