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Old 18-06-2020, 02:13 AM   #2401
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Why are PA plans ridiculous?
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Old 18-06-2020, 08:45 AM   #2402
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Why are PA plans ridiculous?
Have you read them?

For example, why does your surviving dependent need more money if you die as a result of injuries sustained from getting run over by a bus instead of as a result of a stroke? (“How did my dear husband die? A bus ran him over, you say? Wow, that’s fantastic! Thank goodness he died that way!”) This is called “accidental death insurance,” a key feature in PA policies, and it’s an utter joke, absolutely worthless. It doesn’t matter how you die! Your dependent is still going to need whatever your dependent needs. Why do you need a payout if you catch Legionnaires Disease but not if you have most other types of pneumonia? Seriously? Why do you need a triple payout if the claim arises from a public transport-related incident but not when you’re walking to the supermarket? To reimburse your EZ-Link fare? None of this makes any sense, yet that’s how these policies are actually written — I’m using real examples from real PA policies sold in Singapore. There’s a practically infinite list of ridiculous terms in these policies.

You need genuine “all risks” protection from actual losses you cannot reasonably handle on your own that money would make better, not a bunch of random lottery tickets. However, if you’re going to buy a collection of random lottery tickets, at least keep your spending in check.

Last edited by BBCWatcher; 18-06-2020 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 18-06-2020, 10:39 AM   #2403
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If these are U.S. dollars you could try U.S. T-Bills which are available in maturities as short as 4 weeks at original issue. Or you could try an ultrashort U.S. Treasury bond fund domiciled outside the U.S. (assuming you’re not a U.S. person).
If they are SGD then they are not subjected to the estate tax rules?

edit: just read that they are as long as its a US broker

Last edited by beefjerky; 18-06-2020 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 18-06-2020, 10:40 AM   #2404
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BBC, if we have 100k lying around in IB waiting to be deployed over 12 months, I recalled there are short term bonds to invest it in. What exactly are they and how does one invest in them?
Maybe some money market ETF?
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Old 18-06-2020, 10:43 AM   #2405
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Maybe some money market ETF?
Do you have a specific example I can find on let's say London Stock exchange?

edit: Found these 2 TRE3, TRS3. Are these ok?

Last edited by beefjerky; 18-06-2020 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 18-06-2020, 11:46 AM   #2406
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Have you read them?

For example, why does your surviving dependent need more money if you die as a result of injuries sustained from getting run over by a bus instead of as a result of a stroke? (“How did my dear husband die? A bus ran him over, you say? Wow, that’s fantastic! Thank goodness he died that way!”) This is called “accidental death insurance,” a key feature in PA policies, and it’s an utter joke, absolutely worthless. It doesn’t matter how you die! Your dependent is still going to need whatever your dependent needs. Why do you need a payout if you catch Legionnaires Disease but not if you have most other types of pneumonia? Seriously? Why do you need a triple payout if the claim arises from a public transport-related incident but not when you’re walking to the supermarket? To reimburse your EZ-Link fare? None of this makes any sense, yet that’s how these policies are actually written — I’m using real examples from real PA policies sold in Singapore. There’s a practically infinite list of ridiculous terms in these policies.

You need genuine “all risks” protection from actual losses you cannot reasonably handle on your own that money would make better, not a bunch of random lottery tickets. However, if you’re going to buy a collection of random lottery tickets, at least keep your spending in check.

What are your views on medical and tcm reimbursements that PRU offer when one gets injured by accident?
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Old 18-06-2020, 12:40 PM   #2407
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If they are SGD then they are not subjected to the estate tax rules?

edit: just read that they are as long as its a US broker
Directly held U.S. Treasuries (i.e. not within U.S. domiciled funds) are not U.S. estate taxable unless held by a U.S. person.

What are your views on medical and tcm reimbursements that PRU offer when one gets injured by accident?
Nobody should care why you need medical care. If you need medical care, and if you cannot reasonably handle paying for that needed medical care on your own (if it would be calamitous), then you need insurance for the medical care, full stop.

I'm not generally in favor of "named perils" policies. I highly prefer "all risks" policies. I care about the needs, not the soap opera story lines.
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Old 20-06-2020, 04:58 AM   #2408
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Hi,

If my mum (50+ years old) is unable to qualify for integrated shield plans but still has medishield (as citizen) and Medisave ~60k; do you think she should be paying for 30-year term life / TPD, CI, PA plans?

I bought them as my thought process was that they act as the "cost of treatment" that integrated shield plans would typically take. She also has an existing liver problem that was allowed, but caused the loading to be ~75 - 100% hence the policies are quite expensive (~8k for 300k coverage).

She does have a fair sum of liquid /semi-liquid assets (FDs, cash, SSB, some REITs etc) (~200k). House is paid off, no dependents (I'm working full time already). She also has a decent sum of money (~300k) coming in at various points over the next 8 years - basically all her endowments are coming in (not great returns but whatever, at least looks like most of them will hit the 3.25% projection).

Basically my goal for her is that if anything happen she will be taken care of. I'm not worried about ensuring she has any assets to pass down to me.

Thoughts? Much appreciated for any help. Please let me know if more details are required to formulate an opinion.

Last edited by HIPPODEUS; 20-06-2020 at 05:51 AM..
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Old 20-06-2020, 05:45 AM   #2409
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Following on for some advice about my own insurance:
Currently 26 (27 age next birthday). I hold
- GE Maxlife = WL insurance at 2.5k premium per year; 83k death / TPD / CI cover
- Aviva NS group term life 135 per year; 250k death / TPD + 100k PA cover
- GE Life Advantage (ILP), 1.8k premium per year, 36k death / TPD cover + 30k ECI cover + 120k CI cover
- As riders to the ILP, GE Payassure at 180 premium per year covers 2k per month if cannot work and Essential Protector Plus at 300 premium per year to cover 100k accident
- GE Supremehealth + TotalCare P Plus - cover until private
- My current work policies cover me for ~200k death and accident

After reading for the past 2 days on HWZ and other blogs etc, I have concluded that actually my approach was wrong. Basically I listened to my adviser (who is very knowledgeable) and never really consider my own needs so just cover everything (since young and can medically approve easily - my family does have history of hep B causing liver problems and potentially I will have it too. I have not gone for check ups to confirm so I can be underwritten for any insurance first if necessary.)

My needs are:
- To provide for my mum if I pass before her (because her retirement income assumes I continue to provide a monthly allowance + CPF Life)
- Cover treatment for illnesses or any problem
- Insure my income generation ability until I retire
- Be able to generate a basic level of income after I retire until I die (nothing fancy, just ~1.5k to 2k for food, utilities etc.)
- I do not plan to have a family (very unlikely) or kids (very very unlikely)

Considering those needs, I feel like a reworked coverage as follows might suit me better:
- Increase my Aviva term life to higher coverage to provide for my mum in case I die before I have enough wealth accumulated
- Drop all PA; drop ILP
- Increase my disability coverage to maximum level (GE is 75% of my income, now is covering at about 40 - 45% only)
- Decrease hospitalisation to Class A wards because I realised cost of private plans increase exponentially!! but I would still like a private room if anything happens
- My overall annual premium should drop substantially, which I will then invest (I'm only a quarter of the way through reading Shiny Things' thread, will buy the book soon too) to accumulate into a post-65 nest egg

3 questions:
1) Thoughts on the adjustment?

2) Thoughts on GE Elite vs Classic TotalCare? Elite basically pays 5% copayment with 3k cap, while Classic pays deductibles first (~3k) while still having the 3k cap. Meaning e.g. For a bill of 20k, elite would pay 1k (5%) while classic pays 3k. For a large bill of 100k, elite would pay 3k (cap) and classic will still pay 3k (cap). And these copayment sums are per claim = it seems to make sense to get elite IF I anticipate going to the doctor enough times for small bills (20 - 50k) that the difference in premiums gives better value (difference in total premiums from 26 to 85 would be ~25k for Class A ward)

3) Does it make sense for me to surrender the GE Maxlife since I don't really need the coverage? My mum bought it for me when I was still in NS and I've just taken it over. Currently have paid 20k premiums to date (2500*8) and net surrender value per GE e-connect appears to be 15k. Entire policy still has 7 years of premiums left (17.5k).

Thanks in advance for any help .

Last edited by HIPPODEUS; 20-06-2020 at 05:55 AM..
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Old 20-06-2020, 04:32 PM   #2410
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If my mum (50+ years old) is unable to qualify for integrated shield plans but still has medishield (as citizen) and Medisave ~60k; do you think she should be paying for 30-year term life / TPD, CI, PA plans?

I bought them as my thought process was that they act as the "cost of treatment" that integrated shield plans would typically take. She also has an existing liver problem that was allowed, but caused the loading to be ~75 - 100% hence the policies are quite expensive (~8k for 300k coverage).
What's the term age for these policies? Are they all typical S$300K payouts (life, TPD, CI, PA), or is there some variability within that? Are the premiums guaranteed level? I assume the CI and PA are linked to the life/TPD, but please advise if otherwise.

Following on for some advice about my own insurance:
Currently 26 (27 age next birthday). I hold
- GE Maxlife = WL insurance at 2.5k premium per year; 83k death / TPD / CI cover
- Aviva NS group term life 135 per year; 250k death / TPD + 100k PA cover
- GE Life Advantage (ILP), 1.8k premium per year, 36k death / TPD cover + 30k ECI cover + 120k CI cover
- As riders to the ILP, GE Payassure at 180 premium per year covers 2k per month if cannot work and Essential Protector Plus at 300 premium per year to cover 100k accident
- GE Supremehealth + TotalCare P Plus - cover until private
- My current work policies cover me for ~200k death and accident

After reading for the past 2 days on HWZ and other blogs etc, I have concluded that actually my approach was wrong. Basically I listened to my adviser (who is very knowledgeable) and never really consider my own needs so just cover everything (since young and can medically approve easily - my family does have history of hep B causing liver problems and potentially I will have it too. I have not gone for check ups to confirm so I can be underwritten for any insurance first if necessary.)
One side point here: there is a safe and effective Hepatitis B vaccine, and Hepatitis A. You can get the two vaccines together in the Twinrix vaccine. Have you been vaccinated, or can you be? Singapore started vaccinating all babies (except when medically contraindicated) born in Singapore against Hepatitis B since late 1987, so if you were born in Singapore you should have been vaccinated.

My needs are:
- To provide for my mum if I pass before her (because her retirement income assumes I continue to provide a monthly allowance + CPF Life)
OK, so she's your dependent, and consequently some simple term life insurance is merited. Please note that she can be your CPF nominee as well, although I think there's some merit in naming a 0.01% second nominee given that she's older than you are. If she should predecease you, your 0.01% second nominee would receive her share (the 99.99%) of your CPF nomination.

- Cover treatment for illnesses or any problem
- Insure my income generation ability until I retire
- Be able to generate a basic level of income after I retire until I die (nothing fancy, just ~1.5k to 2k for food, utilities etc.)
- I do not plan to have a family (very unlikely) or kids (very very unlikely)

Considering those needs, I feel like a reworked coverage as follows might suit me better:
- Increase my Aviva term life to higher coverage to provide for my mum in case I die before I have enough wealth accumulated
- Drop all PA; drop ILP
- Increase my disability coverage to maximum level (GE is 75% of my income, now is covering at about 40 - 45% only)
You have GE PayAssure, and that's a good one. I think you're allowed to buy the Aviva MINDEF/MHA group DII rider to increase coverage here. And I believe that as long as Aviva would pay no more than 50% income replacement and Great Eastern PayAssure would "top up" to no more than 75% income income replacement (inclusive of Aviva's payout), that all works. But please check that detail very carefully since I could be wrong. Or you could just increase the PayAssure coverage amount.

- Decrease hospitalisation to Class A wards because I realised cost of private plans increase exponentially!! but I would still like a private room if anything happens
Great Eastern's SupremeHealth A Plus is among the top public hospital A ward plans, as it happens.

One way you could approach the Integrated Shield coverage if you want to hang onto the private hospital coverage a bit longer is to tweak the rider. If you have the old "zero dollar" rider, that'll be quite expensive. The Classic-P rider is perfectly fine in insurance terms since it still caps out of pocket costs for covered services, but it should cost less. (You asked about Elite v. Classic, and I think it's just fine to pick the lower cost rider that still caps out of pocket costs for covered services at a reasonable level. That's Classic, isn't it?)

- My overall annual premium should drop substantially, which I will then invest (I'm only a quarter of the way through reading Shiny Things' thread, will buy the book soon too) to accumulate into a post-65 nest egg
Yup. More protection, more individual savings opportunity.

3) Does it make sense for me to surrender the GE Maxlife since I don't really need the coverage? My mum bought it for me when I was still in NS and I've just taken it over. Currently have paid 20k premiums to date (2500*8) and net surrender value per GE e-connect appears to be 15k. Entire policy still has 7 years of premiums left (17.5k).
That's a tricky one since it could be on the edge of attractive. If you have the latest benefit illustration then Tangent314 and others could take a look and see what they think.
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Old 20-06-2020, 07:20 PM   #2411
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What's the term age for these policies? Are they all typical S$300K payouts (life, TPD, CI, PA), or is there some variability within that? Are the premiums guaranteed level? I assume the CI and PA are linked to the life/TPD, but please advise if otherwise.
Hi firstly thanks for replying so quickly! Have been thinking a lot about these in these few days after I discover your thread / ShinyThings.

The term age is 30 years starting this year (53 ANB, bought in April) and lasting until she is 82. It is a guaranteed level 8.1k premium per year for life + TPD (rider) + CI (rider) where life is 3.4k, TPD is 300, CI is 4.4k; and the PA is guaranteed level 500 premium per year as a separate policy (not rider to the life/TPD).

What does variability within that refer to? I have read the FAQ and it says will pay the 300k if death / terminal illness / CI (except coronary artery issues) / TPD and the entire plan will end.

Just to add more details if useful, my concern for her (and why I bought the term plans) is if any major surgeries / treatment required for her liver fibrosis / hardening (need transplant) or other problems such as stroke, tumours etc. Her liver fibrosis has been around for 10 years but annual checkup indicates no worsening over the years.
I consider any inheritance an "extra" i.e. nice to have, sure, but not a necessity. I have calculated her retirement monthly income as ~4k, which is 2k from CPF (enough in the CPF to make enhanced retirement sum already) and 2k from me and my 27 year old brother (we both earn 80 - 100k per year currently)


One side point here: there is a safe and effective Hepatitis B vaccine, and Hepatitis A. You can get the two vaccines together in the Twinrix vaccine. Have you been vaccinated, or can you be? Singapore started vaccinating all babies (except when medically contraindicated) born in Singapore against Hepatitis B since late 1987, so if you were born in Singapore you should have been vaccinated.
I might be vaccinated since i was born in 1994 but am not sure - NS medicals had no issues though. I think getting vaccinated (if I haven't) shouldn't be a problem though?

I feared a chicken-and-egg problem where if I check up and discover any issues then can't be medically underwritten before settling my insurance. However, I intend to go for a full body checkup this year (whenever the COVID-19 situation subsides a bit).


OK, so she's your dependent, and consequently some simple term life insurance is merited. Please note that she can be your CPF nominee as well, although I think there's some merit in naming a 0.01% second nominee given that she's older than you are. If she should predecease you, your 0.01% second nominee would receive her share (the 99.99%) of your CPF nomination.
Well noted. Will make the nomination (although of course my CPF is a bit low now since my first year of working hahaha)

You have GE PayAssure, and that's a good one. I think you're allowed to buy the Aviva MINDEF/MHA group DII rider to increase coverage here. And I believe that as long as Aviva would pay no more than 50% income replacement and Great Eastern PayAssure would "top up" to no more than 75% income income replacement (inclusive of Aviva's payout), that all works. But please check that detail very carefully since I could be wrong. Or you could just increase the PayAssure coverage amount.
Yes, I intend to raise my Payassure to 75% to keep it simple + stick with my agent since he is very helpful in sorting out details of different insurances (although tends to still recommend WL, etc which I actually see some value in IF one cannot have the discipline / knowledge to invest themselves e.g. an older Chinese person who is uneducated - in which case some returns is still better than sticking it in the bank)

Not sure about cost yet but your explanation of why DII is important is convincing


Great Eastern's SupremeHealth A Plus is among the top public hospital A ward plans, as it happens.

One way you could approach the Integrated Shield coverage if you want to hang onto the private hospital coverage a bit longer is to tweak the rider. If you have the old "zero dollar" rider, that'll be quite expensive. The Classic-P rider is perfectly fine in insurance terms since it still caps out of pocket costs for covered services, but it should cost less. (You asked about Elite v. Classic, and I think it's just fine to pick the lower cost rider that still caps out of pocket costs for covered services at a reasonable level. That's Classic, isn't it?)
I only have the 5% copay, don't think the old rider is available anymore.

Yes, that is Classic. I will relook at the math for hanging on to private hospital coverage - although will note that it does cost more Medisave. Also in my (limited) experience with Tan Tock Seng hospital, I think they did as fantastic a job as could be expected already.


That's a tricky one since it could be on the edge of attractive. If you have the latest benefit illustration then Tangent314 and others could take a look and see what they think.
I am in the process of getting the updated benefit illustration next week. Should I post it in this thread or is there some other thread where it is more suitable?


Thanks so much for all the help! As an aside, would it be fair to summarize the entire concept of investment / insurance as: The goal is to get to a lump sum of money (e.g. 1mil) by retirement (65) which is then sufficiently big enough to drawdown retirement living expenses & any medical expenses (basically self-insure). Term insurance is used to plug the gap whereby you are still in the "accumulation" phase in case disaster strikes.

P.S. Funny thing is that I work in corporate finance with deals in millions yet honestly struggle to deal with all these insurance issues / my own finances..
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Old 20-06-2020, 08:21 PM   #2412
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The term age is 30 years starting this year (53 ANB, bought in April) and lasting until she is 82. It is a guaranteed level 8.1k premium per year for life + TPD (rider) + CI (rider) where life is 3.4k, TPD is 300, CI is 4.4k; and the PA is guaranteed level 500 premium per year as a separate policy (not rider to the life/TPD).
The PA is also a S$300K payout?

What does variability within that refer to? I have read the FAQ and it says will pay the 300k if death / terminal illness / CI (except coronary artery issues) / TPD and the entire plan will end.
You just answered my question, although I’m still curious about the PA part. It might be $100K for this, $50K for that, etc., which is what I mean by variable payouts.

Just to add more details if useful, my concern for her (and why I bought the term plans) is if any major surgeries / treatment required for her liver fibrosis / hardening (need transplant) or other problems such as stroke, tumours etc. Her liver fibrosis has been around for 10 years but annual checkup indicates no worsening over the years.
Right, so you’re worried about these conditions and the possible future care needs associated with them, but the liver ones are preexisting and excluded from coverage from most of the insurance listed above, right?

I might be vaccinated since i was born in 1994 but am not sure - NS medicals had no issues though. I think getting vaccinated (if I haven't) shouldn't be a problem though?
You might be able to pull up your own vaccination records on HealthHub.sg, for shots you’ve received within Singapore anyway. In the fairly unlikely event you didn’t get the HepB shot, there’s a combined HepA+B shot you can get to get both done at once. Otherwise HepA alone is available if you haven’t gotten that one yet. It’s possible you’re due for a booster of some kind, such as tetanus.

Newborn infants routinely get their first HepB vaccination before they even leave the hospital, and that’s probably what happened when you were born.

I am in the process of getting the updated benefit illustration next week. Should I post it in this thread or is there some other thread where it is more suitable?
Either way, but please don’t post anything too sensitive.

Thanks so much for all the help! As an aside, would it be fair to summarize the entire concept of investment / insurance as: The goal is to get to a lump sum of money (e.g. 1mil) by retirement (65) which is then sufficiently big enough to drawdown retirement living expenses & any medical expenses (basically self-insure). Term insurance is used to plug the gap whereby you are still in the "accumulation" phase in case disaster strikes.
The basic reality is that insurance companies are now high cost ways to save and invest. So if you’re able to save at least reasonably reliably and prudently, you’ll do better elsewhere. However, there’s still an important role for insurance companies (and governments) to cover at least genuine insurance protection needs.

Funny thing is that I work in corporate finance with deals in millions yet honestly struggle to deal with all these insurance issues / my own finances..
That’s pretty common. Lawyers shouldn’t represent themselves in court, as another example.
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Old 20-06-2020, 09:47 PM   #2413
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The PA is also a S$300K payout?


You just answered my question, although I’m still curious about the PA part. It might be $100K for this, $50K for that, etc., which is what I mean by variable payouts.


Right, so you’re worried about these conditions and the possible future care needs associated with them, but the liver ones are preexisting and excluded from coverage from most of the insurance listed above, right?
The PA is a separate 90k cover! Sorry missed that out. So the liver is preexisting, but NOT excluded hence why it's so expensive. We're basically paying 200% (8k) of what it would cost a similar person with no preexisting conditions (i.e. 4k) to insure the same 300k for life/tpd/ci.

Yes, I'm worried about the possible future care needs associated with them given that she is only on medishield (i.e. 10% payment after deductible) rather than an integrated shield with 5% copayment / 3k cap (ineligible for it), so if there are big medical bills it might wipe out her retirement lump sum. My original thinking was that if she is diagnosed with CI / Accident, there will be a lump sum that covers the treatment + contribute to any post-treatment care.

Hence my question around whether it's better to insure; or invest this 8k premium (30*8 = 240k over whole term), and rely on wealth accumulation + retirement sum to self-insure any future medical bills. Any post-treatment care (e.g. dedicated nurse etc) would then be funded from the same monthly drawdowns of the retirement sum (i.e. factored into monthly expenses).

Honestly more confused (and scared) to mess up my mum's coverage / money. Since I'm young, with a decent job, I'm able to follow largely the examples and "Rules" of the advice provided in this forum and adapt accordingly. However, harder to figure out the right steps to take for her.

You might be able to pull up your own vaccination records on HealthHub.sg, for shots you’ve received within Singapore anyway. In the fairly unlikely event you didn’t get the HepB shot, there’s a combined HepA+B shot you can get to get both done at once. Otherwise HepA alone is available if you haven’t gotten that one yet. It’s possible you’re due for a booster of some kind, such as tetanus.

Newborn infants routinely get their first HepB vaccination before they even leave the hospital, and that’s probably what happened when you were born.
Just checked, online records only available if born and vaccinated after 1996 hence I don't qualify


Either way, but please don’t post anything too sensitive.
Got it! will update again after I get the updated table.



Love the speedy response and clarity of thoughts. Much appreciated
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Old 21-06-2020, 12:20 AM   #2414
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The PA is a separate 90k cover! Sorry missed that out. So the liver is preexisting, but NOT excluded hence why it's so expensive. We're basically paying 200% (8k) of what it would cost a similar person with no preexisting conditions (i.e. 4k) to insure the same 300k for life/tpd/ci.

Yes, I'm worried about the possible future care needs associated with them given that she is only on medishield (i.e. 10% payment after deductible) rather than an integrated shield with 5% copayment / 3k cap (ineligible for it), so if there are big medical bills it might wipe out her retirement lump sum. My original thinking was that if she is diagnosed with CI / Accident, there will be a lump sum that covers the treatment + contribute to any post-treatment care.
OK, I understand the logic. And this’ll be term to age 82 or thereabouts, we should keep in mind.

Will she be getting her acute care from the polyclinics and public hospital B2 or C ward? Or will she attempt something pricier? And she’s a Singaporean citizen, correct?

Do you happen to know if she has any of the ElderShield plans?
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Old 21-06-2020, 01:13 AM   #2415
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OK, I understand the logic. And this’ll be term to age 82 or thereabouts, we should keep in mind.

Will she be getting her acute care from the polyclinics and public hospital B2 or C ward? Or will she attempt something pricier? And she’s a Singaporean citizen, correct?

Do you happen to know if she has any of the ElderShield plans?
Yes. By the time she's 82 I would be ~56 so would likely be able to fund any sizable bills myself (not ideal but works in a pinch) assuming we hold the term insurance, otherwise the savings invested should provide a "medical savings sum" that lasts beyond the term insurance.

SG citizen yes. Her acute care will likely be polyclinics and public hospital first (basically subsidized, to minimize medical bills). She's quite old-school blue-collar, don't need anything fancy.

She has the Eldershield 400 + GE's Eldershield comprehensive 3 ADLs (10 years) which is $300. So she gets $700 per month for 6 years, then $300 per month for 4 years after that if satisfy the unable to perform 3 daily living activities criteria. Both are paid out of her CPF-MA with ~$30 cash topup per year.
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