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Old 06-02-2018, 09:50 PM   #1
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Why not Linux?

Seems most people who get there pc will go for windows by default. With many GNU/Linux distributions available are you able to live without windows? I know many applications like many games and other software are not available on Linux but if you do not depend on such applications are you willing to give Linux a try?

Last edited by dryteletubby; 06-02-2018 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:51 PM   #2
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Seems most people who get there pc will go for windows by default. With many GNU/Linux distributions available are you able to live without windows? I know many applications like many games and other software are not available on Linux but if you do not depend on such applications are you willing to give Linux a try?
GO ahead, use it. And cry over how most common desktop hardware don't have any usable drivers on Linux.

I have said this before and I'll say it again and again:
  • All 802.11ac USB adapters have NO built-in drivers in the kernel
  • Manufacturers do not release Linux drivers, period. If the device is not supported in Linus's mainline kernel, consider yourself screwed. That pathetic driver code dumps you're lucky to find out there are only good for building on one specific kernel version. Come next kernel update, I hope you love playing with bricks, because that's what your hardware becomes when the driver breaks with every new kernel release.
  • Linux has NO separation of drivers from the kernel. That regular driver updates you take for granted on Windows? I hope you enjoy compiling the whole kernel every 2 months
  • Any driver crash locks up the whole kernel. And it happens TOO GODDAMN OFTEN. Compare this to Windows where a driver can actually recover itself after crashing, and actually does so successfully most of the time.
  • Core utilities, application binaries and runtime libraries are practically wielded to each other. Glibc, libstdc++ and a whole bunch of critical libraries CANNOT be upgraded for the life of an entire distribution release or all major userland items break.
  • Applications and programs in repositories are always behind upstream releases unless the user is willing to recompile them himself from source code
  • Need to write own config files for many daemons
  • Many settings and configurations are not exposed by the GUI.
  • In-kernel drivers ALWAYS regress with every new release.
  • So-called 'alternative' software in Linux are ******** most of the time. LibreOffice is at v6 and STILL can't save to OOXML properly.
  • Applications natively compiled for Linux have worse performance than the same software compiled for Windows.
  • X (the current display stack) is a fragile piece of crap that breaks something with every new release. Wayland (a display protocol designed as the successor to X) is completely lacking at this point of time. Fallback X compatibility on Wayland is another complete mess that will take YEARS to sort out.
  • Dependency hell. There is no such luxury of double-clicking an EXE and just clicking 'Next' like in Windows. In Windows, applications are distributed as self-contained bundles with all required runtime libraries and binaries packaged together. In Linux, YOU are responsible for tracking down each and every dependency before installing a package.
  • The same EXE can be installed in Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 perfectly. In Linux, installing a package from targeted at a different distribution version breaks the whole damn system. For real.
  • Forget about Linux on a laptop. Since 2009, I have had no luck with getting the laptop the sleep on screen close. It either hangs, refuses to sleep, refuses to wake up, or in one particularly nasty case, corrupted my filesystem. And it still happens IN 2018.

TLDR version: everything you take for granted in Windows does not work properly in Linux. Full stop.
Speaking as a Linux user since 2009 and still doing so.
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Last edited by Rock-kun; 07-02-2018 at 12:18 AM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:13 AM   #3
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Actually, screw that. Just read this to know why Linux is a complete joke on the desktop:
https://itvision.altervista.org/why....p.current.html
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:39 AM   #4
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I seem to have much different luck compared to you. The first desktop distribution I installed was Ubuntu 10.10 back in 2010? I don't remember anything not working properly. Considering I only installed it because I saw some YouTube videos of the 3D desktop and wobbly windows thought it looked cool. Fast forward some time in the future I got a Acer laptop with 3rd gen Intel processor. Tried installing Ubuntu 12.04 on it is my first time facing issues. Firstly i can't change the brightness of the screen with the keyboard (easily fixed with googling)
2nd Nvidia optimus won't switch gpu usage on the fly. I have to manually restart my pc for it to work. Supprisingly my qualcomm WiFi card works unlike when I upgraded form windows 7 to 8 and I have to re-download the drivers form their website. This issue is fixed with windows 10 fortunately. At present time I use the Acer laptop for distro hopping going from Ubuntu to mint to antergos to KDE neon etc and I find all distributions work out of the box perfectly. I even run KDE neon on my desktop (ryzen 7 nvidia gtx 1070) the focusrite usb dac works by default on Linux unlike on windows 10 where I have to manually install the drivers.
  • package managers exist in linux, they work better then the .msi installer or .exe ( way easier to remove) . snap and flatpak are what you are looking for.
  • Don't go randomly pick a wifi card and hope it works under Linux. companies like qualcomm are a hit and miss with their drivers. Intel is much better
  • I find Linux keeps user space intact better then windows. I never had an issue with either making a driver not work. However after a windows update my Network storage wont mount automatically. My old Ubuntu desktop went from version 10.10 to 17.10 running the latest 4.x kernel
Tldr
Don't randomly hope any hardware works under linux ( for WiFi use an intel Chipset) for gpus Intel And AMD works Nvidia open source drivers suck

Last edited by dryteletubby; 07-02-2018 at 11:04 AM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:37 AM   #5
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Don't randomly hope any hardware works under linux ( for WiFi use an intel Chipset)
What a joke. Not all notebooks ship with an Intel WiFi card. What, you expect people to spend $30 to replace a Broadcom, Realtek, Mediatek or Qualcomm WiFi card just to use Linux?

And what you going to do with notebooks that solder down the WiFi card? Spend $1k on a reflow oven and another 1k on a desoldering kit?

And lastly, ever find any Intel USB WiFi card? No, they don't exist. Tough. ALL 802.11ac USB WiFi devices are made by Realtek, Mediatek and Broadcom. And not a single one of them have an in-kernel driver. Have fun being stuck in the 2000s with 802.11n.


for gpus Intel And AMD works Nvidia open source drivers suck
AMD only just got proper in-kernel support with the display code (DC) merge in kernel 4.15. Prior to 4.15, anything later than Sea Islands had terrible compatibility on Linux. Many Polaris cards could not even output any signal to a display prior to 4.15. Same for Vega on release; no display unless a custom kernel with the DC code was used to boot the system.

Dealing with the proprietary Nvidia drivers is a damned pain in the butt:
  • No support for all Wayland compositors except Gnome 3. Want to use KDE or E22 on Wayland with Nvidia's drivers? How about a giant middle finger, courtesy of the infighting between Nvidia and the desktop environment maintainers?
  • Nvidia's proprietary drivers break. With. Every. Single. Kernel. And. Xserver. release. As is par for the course with every driver that is not in-kernel. Have fun booting to a black screen or a console after a kernel or xserver update.

I even run KDE neon on my desktop (ryzen 7 nvidia gtx 1070) the focusrite usb dac works by default on Linux unlike on windows 10 where I have to manually install the drivers.
Go and update the kernel and xserver on the distribution by one minor version. Have fun working with a blank console on boot.

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Old 07-02-2018, 11:50 AM   #6
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package managers exist in linux, they work better then the .msi installer or .exe ( way easier to remove) . snap and flatpak are what you are looking for.
Package managers are an abomination. And perpetually out of data against upstream. To the point I actually trashed the package manager and resorted to compiling my own applications direct from source code.

apt is so damn fragile that it actually destroyed itself once after I ctrl-c a repository search. And last time i used it a year ago, it STILL has problems managing broken dependencies. rpm is not any better with each rpm-based distribution using incompatible versions of RPM. But at least it is a heck lot more robust than the nonsense that is apt, especially with dnf and zypper using libsolv that utilizes algorithms to manage dependencies.
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:10 PM   #7
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I use an Alfa AWUS03ACH usb WiFi adapter for learning network security. (It has a monitor mode available) not sure what chipset it uses but it works. I Tested it on my desktop laptop and even a raspberry pi. It does 5ghz AC WiFi
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:13 PM   #8
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I use an Alfa AWUS03ACH usb WiFi adapter for learning network security. (It has a monitor mode available) not sure what chipset it uses but it works. I Tested it on my desktop laptop and even a raspberry pi. It does 5ghz AC WiFi
That is because the distribution baked in an out-of-kernel driver for the chipset. Debian, Ubuntu, Kali and Arch do this so often that it's revolting because it does not try to tell the user so.

Put the same USB WiFi adapter under Linus Torvalds' mainline kernel like I do and watch it become a brick. Or even better, just update the kernel to the next minor release and see if it breaks. Especially if it has not been compiled using DKMS. And even with DKMS, if the kernel changes too much with each release DKMS won't save you from a broken driver.

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Old 07-02-2018, 12:25 PM   #9
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I not sure if you are trying to make your life harder lol. Why not buy a laptop from the free software Foundation. It comes entirely with free software.
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:30 PM   #10
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I not sure if you are trying to make your life harder lol. Why not buy a laptop from the free software Foundation. It comes entirely with free software.
Because I don't rely on the distribution to give me what I want.

I compile my own kernels direct from kernel.org. And my own graphics libraries direct from Mesa. I maintain my own installations well after their discontinuation, and for that drivers MUST be in mainline, no compromises.

Just like how my current laptop is running on an EOL Fedora 22 with kernel 4.14 and Mesa 13.

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Old 07-02-2018, 12:34 PM   #11
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Because I don't rely on the distribution to give me what I want.

I compile my own kernels direct from kernel.org. And my own graphics libraries direct from Mesa. I maintain my own installations well after their discontinuation, and for that drivers MUST be in mainline, no compromises.

Just like how my current laptop is running on an EOL Fedora 22 with kernel 4.14 and Mesa 13.
linuxfromscratch?
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:50 PM   #12
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Seems most people who get there pc will go for windows by default. With many GNU/Linux distributions available are you able to live without windows? I know many applications like many games and other software are not available on Linux but if you do not depend on such applications are you willing to give Linux a try?
Yes, I have developers in my company doing that. I myself live on a mostly console mode only Linux laptop back in my uni days back in year 2002 with only X started as and when I want. Compatibilities are way much better these days, but still not as good as when compared to Microsoft Windows and Mac OS due to vendors support, but with careful selection of the laptops, such as if if you would like to go with Dell, you can get a satisfactory laptop with Linux installation going just fine.

Having said that, while most of the time end-users can get by with Linux without much problem, there are some edge cases where the users need to be more technically savvy than Windows/Mac users.

Depending on your needs and how you work with your machine, Windows may or may not be still required having Microsoft still dominate some really useful software especially Office Suite. In such cases, a virtual machine will come in useful, but officially you will still need a Windows license for the guest OS.

If the environment you are working in doesn't have such dependency, then you can be fully functional with Linux OS. For example, using Google Docs, using web-based 3rd party solutions etc.

For me, other than my Mail client and Safari browser which is the de-facto applications I go to, the next in line is the Terminal(console) app, for such end-users, Linux is normally a breeze. However I am using Mac OS which offers me even more than just a Unix based system.

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Old 09-02-2018, 08:54 AM   #13
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If the environment you are working in doesn't have such dependency, then you can be fully functional with Linux OS. For example, using Google Docs, using web-based 3rd party solutions etc.
Ugh, Google Docs? That thing was a joke, is still a joke and will always be a joke.

I'll take LibreOffice's nonsense over Google Docs any day. Especially since I occasionally have to write documents that require clear section headings with bookmarks and indexing, which Google Docs completely fails in.

For me, other than my Mail client and Safari browser which is the de-facto applications I go to, the next in line is the Terminal(console) app, for such end-users, Linux is normally a breeze. However I am using Mac OS which offers me even more than just a Unix based system.
For my case, it is
  1. mail client (Thunderbird, self-compiled)
  2. web browser (FF or Chromium, both self-compiled)
  3. terminal emulator
  4. LibreOffice (also self-compiled)
  5. OpenJDK with Icedtea-web addon (both self-compiled) for accessing hardware appliances' management interfaces
  6. Wireshark (also self-compiled)
  7. dconf-editor for adding extensions to Gnome (because I just cannot remember the CLI settings to manage Gnome)
  8. systemsettings for managing KDE options

Anything else, I rely on free web alternatives. In fact, I have recently learned to be able to manage my files entirely via the terminal without having to fire up a file manager like Dolphin or Nautilus.

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Old 09-02-2018, 12:31 PM   #14
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Ugh, Google Docs? That thing was a joke, is still a joke and will always be a joke.

I'll take LibreOffice's nonsense over Google Docs any day. Especially since I occasionally have to write documents that require clear section headings with bookmarks and indexing, which Google Docs completely fails in.



For my case, it is
  1. mail client (Thunderbird, self-compiled)
  2. web browser (FF or Chromium, both self-compiled)
  3. terminal emulator
  4. LibreOffice (also self-compiled)
  5. OpenJDK with Icedtea-web addon (both self-compiled) for accessing hardware appliances' management interfaces
  6. Wireshark (also self-compiled)
  7. dconf-editor for adding extensions to Gnome (because I just cannot remember the CLI settings to manage Gnome)
  8. systemsettings for managing KDE options

Anything else, I rely on free web alternatives. In fact, I have recently learned to be able to manage my files entirely via the terminal without having to fire up a file manager like Dolphin or Nautilus.
Whether you personally feel it is a joke or not, the fact is it is there, and there are private and public sectors using it, depends on who you work with. Not everyone has the same needs as you.

Neither do I see the need for one, even power users, to compile every single /most applications, which include the Linux kernel. There is no substantial benefits in doing so. Relying on the upstream or distro repo to provide applications and support are still very useful, despite they are not ideal(in your sense), they solve >80% of the problem of managing your packages. That would makes the rest of the <20%, that you need to be self-compiled or managed manually on your own.

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Old 09-02-2018, 12:46 PM   #15
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Neither do I see the need for one, even power users, to compile every single /most applications, which include the Linux kernel. There is no substantial benefits in doing so.
For fun.

Come now, don't you feel a certain sense of DIY achievement at the end of the day when a self-compiled application, especially a very complex one, works well enough to be used daily in the line of work after all the dependencies have been manually (i.e.: without the package manager) beaten into submission?
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