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Old 28-06-2019, 11:49 AM   #16
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Actually Full Stack is just a term only, come down to end of day is using the technology stack applicable to develop what is required. @dangerousgaming, don't feel bad if you cannot master everything
Thanks for the confidence boost 🙂.
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Old 28-06-2019, 02:04 PM   #17
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Ok lah you very pro la ok I think you are better than me already. Only bodo like me try so long also canít master 1 language.
I have already told you what you will want to do and donít just put all your eggs into one basket. How you want to drive your career is up to you.

When learn a programming language, donít just accept what it can do, do some deeper thoughts on how it is implemented, read up in these areas and learn more languages to experience the differences. It is through the learning them that you will discover, the differences and where are the common points. I am not trying to look pro to you, I donít care seriously. I am just sharing on how you can better embrace technologies.

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Old 28-06-2019, 02:22 PM   #18
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Ok lah you very pro la ok I think you are better than me already. Only bodo like me try so long also canít master 1 language.
He might sound quite dismissive, but I do kinda understand what heís saying about learning multiple languages.

Iím also a beginner, only started learning programming since last November. So it has been around 8 months since I started? And I usually just take 1-2 hours to study it daily, after work or during the weekends.

Before that, I only knew VBA to automate some of my excel work.

I started by learning C and Python in Harvardís online CS50 course. Spent about 2 months going through the course, and found myself really liking programming in general. You start to realise that programming isnít about learning one language, but understanding the fundamentals of computer science. It doesnít matter what language you learn.

I then went on to reading a C programming book and took some python classes over the weekend. (I still didnít understand a lot of stuff) Did some simple projects in C and Python and tried out some Python libraries like Pandas, and realised its really awesome for data science.

Afterwards, took some courses on Udemy to learn Javascript, HTML and CSS. Just to see how web development is like. Found it really fun to create simple responsive websites.

Now currently learning C# and .NET framework, to create web applications.

What I realised is that when I started learning C and Python, I had real trouble understanding OOP concepts. It wasnít until I started learning Javascript to create simple websites that OOP concepts started to make sense. I learned about relational databases by using VBA and SQL to query data from the backend SQL server at my work to a ďfront-endĒ Access database. And now Iím learning about frameworks like ASP.NET MVC, while using C# as a language.

And no, Iím not even remotely good at any of these languages. But learning different languages and using them helped to solidify different programming concepts. At least thatís my experience so far and what kinda ďworkedĒ for me. Itís probably different for everyone.

Last edited by daniel4165; 28-06-2019 at 02:26 PM..
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Old 28-06-2019, 02:56 PM   #19
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He might sound quite dismissive, but I do kinda understand what heís saying about learning multiple languages.

Iím also a beginner, only started learning programming since last November. So it has been around 8 months since I started? And I usually just take 1-2 hours to study it daily, after work or during the weekends.

Before that, I only knew VBA to automate some of my excel work.

I started by learning C and Python in Harvardís online CS50 course. Spent about 2 months going through the course, and found myself really liking programming in general. You start to realise that programming isnít about learning one language, but understanding the fundamentals of computer science. It doesnít matter what language you learn.

I then went on to reading a C programming book and took some python classes over the weekend. (I still didnít understand a lot of stuff) Did some simple projects in C and Python and tried out some Python libraries like Pandas, and realised its really awesome for data science.

Afterwards, took some courses on Udemy to learn Javascript, HTML and CSS. Just to see how web development is like. Found it really fun to create simple responsive websites.

Now currently learning C# and .NET framework, to create web applications.

What I realised is that when I started learning C and Python, I had real trouble understanding OOP concepts. It wasnít until I started learning Javascript to create simple websites that OOP concepts started to make sense. I learned about relational databases by using VBA and SQL to query data from the backend SQL server at my work to a ďfront-endĒ Access database. And now Iím learning about frameworks like ASP.NET MVC, while using C# as a language.

And no, Iím not even remotely good at any of these languages. But learning different languages and using them helped to solidify different programming concepts. At least thatís my experience so far and what kinda ďworkedĒ for me. Itís probably different for everyone.
I donít think your approach is good for average beginners. If I jump here and there like you eg spend only 2 weeks (2hrs a day) to learn basic html and css stuff like you said I donít understand how you can go in dept and learn things like flexbox, css grid and even use all the libraries like bootstrap to design a good looking website like a pro. Like when an employer ask you specifics about css grid you can answer.
Next after the 2 weeks you want me to jump to js and to learn basic things up till conditionals and loops and then the next 2 weeks jumping to learn the same thing in another language like C#? I wouldnít have even grasp things like es6, objects, higher order functions in js and frameworks like react. This is what the nus iss masters program seems like to me and basically itís asking too much. Maybe you are a fast learner or I am a slow one idk.

Last edited by dangerousgaming; 28-06-2019 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 28-06-2019, 03:01 PM   #20
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I have already told you what you will want to do and donít just put all your eggs into one basket. How you want to drive your career is up to you.

When learn a programming language, donít just accept what it can do, do some deeper thoughts on how it is implemented, read up in these areas and learn more languages to experience the differences. It is through the learning them that you will discover, the differences and where are the common points. I am not trying to look pro to you, I donít care seriously. I am just sharing on how you can better embrace technologies.
If you talking about the long term then yes I agree and by long term I mean like years. But if you suggesting for beginners to learn abit here then jump around and learn other language and tech like you said then I disagree. All these in the span of 6 months in the nus iss which this IBF intends to send ppl to right? Sounds like you wont be prepared for anything at the end to me. I still think itís better to stick to one language for awhile (months) before you move on to other things.
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Old 28-06-2019, 03:26 PM   #21
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I don’t think your approach is good for average beginners. If I jump here and there like you eg spend only 2 weeks (2hrs a day) to learn basic html and css stuff like you said I don’t understand how you can go in dept and learn things like flexbox, css grid and even use all the libraries like bootstrap to design a good looking website.
Next after the 2 weeks you want me to jump to js and to learn basic things up till conditionals and loops and then the next 2 weeks jumping to learn the same thing in another language like C#? I wouldn’t have even grasp things like es6, objects, higher order functions in js and frameworks like react. This is what the nus iss masters program seems like to me and basically it’s asking too much. Maybe you are a fast learner or I am a slow one idk.
Maybe the way I'm learning is actually damn bad LOL. But it works for me, somehow. Maybe my brain is weird.

My current job is a lot of reporting, and honestly quite boring. Just need to be good at excel and automating some stuff + automate Outlook to email people with some nice email html formatting so the boss can see stuff easily.

I like learning new things, that's why I found programming really interesting. I wasn't learning anything new at work. Kind of regret not having studied it during Uni days, but better late than never right?

So learning programming by learning multiple languages and playing around with their libraries works for me. I keep learning new stuff (Awesome). I see progress with my skills and my wealth of knowledge grows each month (Awesome). I realize: "So this is how memory management kindaaa works with C??" or "Oh! That's why people always say Python is awesome for Data Science, because of their amazing libraries." or "Orhh.. You can do so much stuff with just modern javascript + HTML + CSS?" (Awesome)

No, I'm not fast learner. I always feel damn stupid whenever I learn some new concept. You wouldn't believe how long it takes me to understand some simple concepts. But I just keep practicing and watching youtube videos until I "get" it lor. Like some lightbulb flash in the head.

That's why I said I couldn't understand OOP concepts while learning Python. Then while I learn Javascript, suddenly OOP concepts became damn obvious. Not sure why. As I said, my brain is weird
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Old 28-06-2019, 03:46 PM   #22
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If you talking about the long term then yes I agree and by long term I mean like years. But if you suggesting for beginners to learn abit here then jump around and learn other language and tech like you said then I disagree. All these in the span of 6 months in the nus iss which this IBF intends to send ppl to right? Sounds like you wont be prepared for anything at the end to me. I still think it’s better to stick to one language for awhile (months) before you move on to other things.
Sure lets do it your way. Have you master your Javascript yet ? The next ECMAscript is coming out soon, you will no longer be a master of Javascript because new features that you don't know make you less proficient as before. When are you going to start on your SQL ? Do you know SQL have stored procedure which are also programming language in a way ?

You will most likely be *NOT* a master of most stuff that will make your proficient in the IT industry. It doesn't matter if you are a beginner, or intermediate or advance developer. If you can't do what you are tasked to do, you will be lagging behind. When you are thrown a task in real life, you will need to pick up things almost instantaneously and within short time frames like weeks to 1.5months. If you did not train yourself to adapt learning a couple of new things at the same time, you will be *AVERAGE* whether you like it or not.

The fact that you are in an institute learning, is exactly the best place to get yourself tune to the industrial requirement and learn to be adaptive and versatile. When you are thrown to devops, needing to learn ansible, chef, puppet, or gkven a performance testing environment like Jmeter which you will need to learn groovy, jexl, beanshell, or java, you will perform badly if you don't have the SKILLSET to be versatile in your learning techniques.

Yes, even LEARNING is something to learn. You don't just be versatile because you decided one morning you wanted to be, you are versatile because you grasp the technique to juggle multiple things at the same time. How you learn this ? Throw yourself into the fire and you will learn. I have been in the IT industry for more than a decade, so whether you want to believe I say is true, you will find out pretty soon

Javascript is for one thing, C# is a different paradigm. Whether you like it or not, that's how the industry is. Doing your way, means you are not going to catch up at all, because you purposely limit your exposure to just one single language. Javascript is an event driven language which introduce a different way of programming, vs C# which are more structured and offers multi-threading and classical OOP. Javascript is not classical OOP, it is using prototyping OOP which is a different mode.

6 months and only 2 languages, I call it cozy. Your own choice seriously. Back in my NUS days, multitude languages and technologies in the same semester. C, Java, shell script, SQL, ASP, HTML, Javascript.

Last edited by davidktw; 28-06-2019 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 28-06-2019, 03:51 PM   #23
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Maybe the way I'm learning is actually damn bad LOL. But it works for me, somehow. Maybe my brain is weird.

My current job is a lot of reporting, and honestly quite boring. Just need to be good at excel and automating some stuff + automate Outlook to email people with some nice email html formatting so the boss can see stuff easily.

I like learning new things, that's why I found programming really interesting. I wasn't learning anything new at work. Kind of regret not having studied it during Uni days, but better late than never right?

So learning programming by learning multiple languages and playing around with their libraries works for me. I keep learning new stuff (Awesome). I see progress with my skills and my wealth of knowledge grows each month (Awesome). I realize: "So this is how memory management kindaaa works with C??" or "Oh! That's why people always say Python is awesome for Data Science, because of their amazing libraries." or "Orhh.. You can do so much stuff with just modern javascript + HTML + CSS?" (Awesome)

No, I'm not fast learner. I always feel damn stupid whenever I learn some new concept. You wouldn't believe how long it takes me to understand some simple concepts. But I just keep practicing and watching youtube videos until I "get" it lor. Like some lightbulb flash in the head.

That's why I said I couldn't understand OOP concepts while learning Python. Then while I learn Javascript, suddenly OOP concepts became damn obvious. Not sure why. As I said, my brain is weird
Don't worry, you are doing just fine. That's because you love technologies and you are embracing it. There is no such things as one programming language though out. That's a fallacy. You either started with the understanding that the IT industry is a very vibrant one that demands learning to be spontaneous and concurrent, or you lag behind and let others take over you.

I am thrown into the Perl programming language when I'm in my first year of work. I don't know anything about Perl before it and today I can say I am a rather advance Perl developer. At the same time, I still have to learn Linux, industrial best practices, reading RFC learning about SMTP and SMPP and so forth. If at the start of the course and you condition yourself to only learn one thing at one time, you will be getting a culture shock when you are at work. We are not in lalaland unfortunately
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Old 28-06-2019, 04:06 PM   #24
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He might sound quite dismissive, but I do kinda understand what heís saying about learning multiple languages.

Iím also a beginner, only started learning programming since last November. So it has been around 8 months since I started? And I usually just take 1-2 hours to study it daily, after work or during the weekends.

Before that, I only knew VBA to automate some of my excel work.

I started by learning C and Python in Harvardís online CS50 course. Spent about 2 months going through the course, and found myself really liking programming in general. You start to realise that programming isnít about learning one language, but understanding the fundamentals of computer science. It doesnít matter what language you learn.

I then went on to reading a C programming book and took some python classes over the weekend. (I still didnít understand a lot of stuff) Did some simple projects in C and Python and tried out some Python libraries like Pandas, and realised its really awesome for data science.

Afterwards, took some courses on Udemy to learn Javascript, HTML and CSS. Just to see how web development is like. Found it really fun to create simple responsive websites.

Now currently learning C# and .NET framework, to create web applications.

What I realised is that when I started learning C and Python, I had real trouble understanding OOP concepts. It wasnít until I started learning Javascript to create simple websites that OOP concepts started to make sense. I learned about relational databases by using VBA and SQL to query data from the backend SQL server at my work to a ďfront-endĒ Access database. And now Iím learning about frameworks like ASP.NET MVC, while using C# as a language.

And no, Iím not even remotely good at any of these languages. But learning different languages and using them helped to solidify different programming concepts. At least thatís my experience so far and what kinda ďworkedĒ for me. Itís probably different for everyone.
Hihi, I'm a beginner too. Started with Python, SQL in my course in Data Analytics in Oct last year, and fell in love with programming. I also feel that it's a pity that I didn't have exposure to programming prior to that. I went on to study HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP, Nodejs and React on my own. Tried doing some mini projects with what I learnt, and it helps me alot in my learning.

I personally think that having a first language(to me, it's Python) allows me to understand others more easily. Same concepts, just different languages. Great to read all your different approaches to learning. Makes me even more motivated to learn more
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Old 28-06-2019, 04:27 PM   #25
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Don't worry, you are doing just fine. That's because you love technologies and you are embracing it. There is no such things as one programming language though out. That's a fallacy. You either started with the understanding that the IT industry is a very vibrant one that demands learning to be spontaneous and concurrent, or you lag behind and let others take over you.

I am thrown into the Perl programming language when I'm in my first year of work. I don't know anything about Perl before it and today I can say I am a rather advance Perl developer. At the same time, I still have to learn Linux, industrial best practices, reading RFC learning about SMTP and SMPP and so forth. If at the start of the course and you condition yourself to only learn one thing at one time, you will be getting a culture shock when you are at work. We are not in lalaland unfortunately
Thanks this reply!

You just indirectly convinced me to learn the basics of Go this weekend haha
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Old 28-06-2019, 04:38 PM   #26
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Thanks this reply!

You just indirectly convinced me to learn the basics of Go this weekend haha
Donít be over zealous. I say one should learn concurrently, I didnít say go and learn everything at one shot. There are tons of other things outside of just programming languages. Learn about cloud computing, learn about testing frameworks, learn about deployment techniques, learn about storage concepts, networking concepts, containers and virtual machines. Learn about IoT, mobile, multimedia encoding and decoding, security and so forth. When you look at the big picture of things, you will quickly realise you will *NEVER* be a master of most. Do focus on 2-3 programming languages, better if they are designed to solve a different paradigm of problems.

For example, my most proficient is Java. But Javascript plays a lot of frontend, yet Perl is best for scripting jobs. Groovy is my glue language using Java libraries but still dynamic like scripting. I learn Groovy on my own during a project because I need to connect to the Oracle database, but I want to use the JDBC drivers instead of the native OCI since the platform I am working on is Solaris and it is hard for me to install drivers. Yet i need a scripting environment which can give me dynamic ness during deployment and fast changing of codes without going thru a full deployment cycle
Think of why you need to learn something and find out how this new thing will be helpful to your everyday task. It will help you prioritise your learning roadmap
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Old 28-06-2019, 04:41 PM   #27
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Hihi, I'm a beginner too. Started with Python, SQL in my course in Data Analytics in Oct last year, and fell in love with programming. I also feel that it's a pity that I didn't have exposure to programming prior to that. I went on to study HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP, Nodejs and React on my own. Tried doing some mini projects with what I learnt, and it helps me alot in my learning.

I personally think that having a first language(to me, it's Python) allows me to understand others more easily. Same concepts, just different languages. Great to read all your different approaches to learning. Makes me even more motivated to learn more
Huge respect to you. Self learning is damnnn difficult, but it's totally worth it at the same time when you realise the cool new stuff you can do haha.
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Old 28-06-2019, 05:13 PM   #28
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Donít be over zealous. I say one should learn concurrently, I didnít say go and learn everything at one shot. There are tons of other things outside of just programming languages. Learn about cloud computing, learn about testing frameworks, learn about deployment techniques, learn about storage concepts, networking concepts, containers and virtual machines. Learn about IoT, mobile, multimedia encoding and decoding, security and so forth. When you look at the big picture of things, you will quickly realise you will *NEVER* be a master of most. Do focus on 2-3 programming languages, better if they are designed to solve a different paradigm of problems.

For example, my most proficient is Java. But Javascript plays a lot of frontend, yet Perl is best for scripting jobs. Groovy is my glue language using Java libraries but still dynamic like scripting. I learn Groovy on my own during a project because I need to connect to the Oracle database, but I want to use the JDBC drivers instead of the native OCI since the platform I am working on is Solaris and it is hard for me to install drivers. Yet i need a scripting environment which can give me dynamic ness during deployment and fast changing of codes without going thru a full deployment cycle
Think of why you need to learn something and find out how this new thing will be helpful to your everyday task. It will help you prioritise your learning roadmap
Thanks for the advice. Really.

You know what? I'm definitely interested in the idea of learning about Cloud Computing & Unit Testing for now. Cloud Computing because I have no idea what it is but lots of companies are starting to use it, and Unit Testing simply because I want to see why it's important to do so.
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Old 28-06-2019, 05:30 PM   #29
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Hi all,


An interesting thread here... I am just wondering for a novice, where should he/she starts? Apparently, the choices available are crazy ... as in both online and face-to-face courses available as well as the types of languages and technologies... (sorry for being vague as I am a novice)
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Merging Disciplines to Conquer Nature....
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Old 28-06-2019, 06:07 PM   #30
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Hi all,


An interesting thread here... I am just wondering for a novice, where should he/she starts? Apparently, the choices available are crazy ... as in both online and face-to-face courses available as well as the types of languages and technologies... (sorry for being vague as I am a novice)
A lot of people will recommend either Harvard's CS50 or MIT 6.00.1x introduction to computer science courses. Completely free and I would say much better than any of those expensive PAID courses you will find locally

I took CS50, so I really do vouch for it.

1) CS50 is an incredibly comprehensive 12 weeks course.

2) CS50 has a really awesome instructor.

3) CS50 has really challenging problem sets, which require you to learn on your own to complete them. It's important to be able to self-learn and read documentation on your own.

4) CS50 teaches low level language with C in the beginning before switching to higher level languages like Python. After using C, you will be amazed by the difference between C and Python. But you will also gain an appreciation for low level languages like C.

But do note that CS50 is really, really challenging for beginners. It can be done, but you will need to put in the hard work.

Last edited by daniel4165; 28-06-2019 at 06:09 PM..
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