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Hyflux 6% Perpetual Securities

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Old 11-05-2019, 04:33 PM   #3376
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now my marriage is postpone.
didn't even receive much dividen from the hyflux bonds.
bought hyflux retail bonds for $100k .
I hardly even get back 5 k of dividen . serious

and now I get to lose all my $100k


this cheating scheme .

and why authority allow hyflux to roll out such bonds to the retailer with no ending condition . a loan that is forever, and can no need to repay back. who is the original creator of this hyflux retail bonds ?

with no ending condition ought to be questioned.



but these bank can crafted their loan to their advantages.
Banker money is considered money, retail loan is not money and retailer should write off their loan just like that.

who are these finance people doing such things.

it is stealing!!!

it is robbery.

it is cheating.

how can they rob the retailer like us this way ?

so many of the retail investor are noob and all of us now got to lose everything .
maybank the banker can have their money back. but retailer like us have to cry.

it is damn unfair.

bank made a loan charges interest to the company.
bank earned interest too. lots of it
when problem arises, bank can get their capital back .
simply because they can craft the contract as such.
to their own advantage.

Then nobody from the forum say you greedy bank you deserve it.

then when retailer are ask to made loan to the company. Beg for money ?
These people from the bank craft the worst kind of condition for the retailer.

how can our finance system be so unfair ?
is this call level playing ?
nobody review the finance system ? who can take the lead and review this unfair play ?
they are doing it again and again.
generation after generation.
previous generation they got hit, they kept silent. silent die away
then the next batch of younger generation fall into the same trick they use.
using the same template and repeating the same template, to the next generation.
these people collect commission and pay and rolling toxic product to the retailer.

can we stop this kind of broad day light cheating system ?

it got to be stop. after hyflux.
why bank can get their money back while retailer are not allow too ?
what senior , junior ?
when money is money
all hard earned money

you can craft the contract, you are winner.

now I cant even get married.

and OL can get to have her million salary and we retailer just get cry
If your wife not going to marry you because no money for a grand wedding, better off without her. At least you paid 100k to see your wife's true colors.
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:50 PM   #3377
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All investment carries risk of losing money. You choose to buy, no one forced you to do it. You went in without knowledge of how bonds work, who can you blame but yourself?
For them, they blamed PMO, DBS, MAS, KPMG, ATM machine, PUB, EMA and Singaporean who don't support them...They wanted to keep reiterating that they are not greedy and expect minimum 100% recovery plus all accumulated interest...Some of the reasons could be they bought Hyflux as a National Service to safeguard Singapore water supply, EMA liberating OEM which cause price of electricity to go down for Singaporean which lead to losses for Tuaspring, PUB not being moral for taking over Tuaspring at $0, Pioneer and Merdeka Generation invested their whole life savings and lost, moral obligation of each and everyone to help them recover back 100% of their capital plus accumulated interest...
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:14 PM   #3378
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For them, they blamed PMO, DBS, MAS, KPMG, ATM machine, PUB, EMA and Singaporean who don't support them...They wanted to keep reiterating that they are not greedy and expect minimum 100% recovery plus all accumulated interest...Some of the reasons could be they bought Hyflux as a National Service to safeguard Singapore water supply, EMA liberating OEM which cause price of electricity to go down for Singaporean which lead to losses for Tuaspring, PUB not being moral for taking over Tuaspring at $0, Pioneer and Merdeka Generation invested their whole life savings and lost, moral obligation of each and everyone to help them recover back 100% of their capital plus accumulated interest...
Maybe there should be some restrictions in place for buying of corporate bonds to safeguard those who do not understand the risks involved.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:24 PM   #3379
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now my marriage is postpone.
didn't even receive much dividen from the hyflux bonds.
bought hyflux retail bonds for $100k .
I hardly even get back 5 k of dividen . serious
I hope you are not telling us some CSB.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:37 PM   #3380
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I hope you are not telling us some CSB.
He deleted his old post but previously he was bragging to those people who post in the OEM chat asking for referral for the gencos that their referral fees is lower than the 6% he got from Hyflux...This was way before any of the problems on Hyflux was even in the news...so most likely not CSB...
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:46 PM   #3381
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He deleted his old post but previously he was bragging to those people who post in the OEM chat asking for referral for the gencos that their referral fees is lower than the 6% he got from Hyflux...This was way before any of the problems on Hyflux was even in the news...so most likely not CSB...
This guy must have lots of money to be able to afford a concentrated bet on Hyflux.

Maybe cannot afford wedding at The Clifford Pier @ The Fullerton Bay Hotel anymore.

Can still choose a cheaper reception at M hotel instead. Got as low as $60 per person.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:48 PM   #3382
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Maybe there should be some restrictions in place for buying of corporate bonds to safeguard those who do not understand the risks involved.
The problem is if you put even more red tape, companies would not be able to raise funds, the retail investors will complain if it is made available to Accredited Investors that they are not given the same opportunity to "strike it rich" or that the government is introducing regulations to keep the rich getting richer with the numerous "sophisticated" instruments not available to retail investors...

People should only invest in money that they are willing to lose and not think that any of their investment carry zero risk or that someone is going to bail them out for making their own financial decision...No one put a gun to any of the investors head to invest in Hyflux...The 34,000 investors made the choice to invest whereas the rest of Singapore did not even invest in Hyflux...Why should the millions of Singaporean who did not invest in Hyflux should be held responsible by the 34,000 investors choice and penalize for it with more regulations from the government?

What about personal responsibilities and admitting to one's mistake, as people just looking for a nanny state to help make financial decisions for them...This is the very same reason why we have CPF minimum sum and CPF Life as Singaporean need someone to hold and help them manage their finance even during retirement...
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Old 11-05-2019, 09:30 PM   #3383
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I am of the same opinion as well. Hyflux retail investors are complaining about inadequate protection because there is high chances they will be wiped out.

If retail investors were not allowed to purchase perfs and perps, etc, the narrative would be different. It will be retail investors are denied high returns instruments, elite enriching elite, etc.

However, after monitoring the TG group, I have notice that some (at least one who don’t understand English well and has been relying on Google translate) are not financially literate and some who are spouting nonsense.

imo, the middle ground could be for investors to take a basic course (like what phv drivers are doing). I know that it cannot and will not be able to train everthing an investor needs to know. But basic stuff of investing like risk, they can and will be wiped out, never put all eggs into a basket, do not invest what you cannot afford to lose, etc.

The problem is if you put even more red tape, companies would not be able to raise funds, the retail investors will complain if it is made available to Accredited Investors that they are not given the same opportunity to "strike it rich" or that the government is introducing regulations to keep the rich getting richer with the numerous "sophisticated" instruments not available to retail investors...

...

Last edited by gandalfthegrey; 11-05-2019 at 09:36 PM..
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:15 AM   #3384
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If retail investors were not allowed to purchase perfs and perps, etc, the narrative would be different. It will be retail investors are denied high returns instruments, elite enriching elite, etc.

However, after monitoring the TG group, I have notice that some (at least one who donít understand English well and has been relying on Google translate) are not financially literate and some who are spouting nonsense.

imo, the middle ground could be for investors to take a basic course (like what phv drivers are doing). I know that it cannot and will not be able to train everthing an investor needs to know. But basic stuff of investing like risk, they can and will be wiped out, never put all eggs into a basket, do not invest what you cannot afford to lose, etc.
The Monetary Authority of Singapore has belatedly, gradually started to take these steps. For example, the CPF Investment Scheme now requires certain minimal education.

I donít think itís enough. I think, at the very least, the MAS should require sub-S$250,000 retail issues to carry actual bond ratings ó bond ratings the MAS is already subsidizing.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:04 PM   #3385
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The Monetary Authority of Singapore has belatedly, gradually started to take these steps. For example, the CPF Investment Scheme now requires certain minimal education.

I don’t think it’s enough. I think, at the very least, the MAS should require sub-S$250,000 retail issues to carry actual bond ratings — bond ratings the MAS is already subsidizing.
Why stop at bonds? Why not make everyone who wants a CDP account take a test? Why not grade equities as well?
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:20 PM   #3386
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This guy must have lots of money to be able to afford a concentrated bet on Hyflux.

Maybe cannot afford wedding at The Clifford Pier @ The Fullerton Bay Hotel anymore.

Can still choose a cheaper reception at M hotel instead. Got as low as $60 per person.
Not true. Can also be that he put all his eggs in one basket. Stupid move I say. Even those free financial literacy course also stressed the importance of spreading your risk across multiple instruments.

Edit:

Why stop at bonds? Why not make everyone who wants a CDP account take a test? Why not grade equities as well?
That is actually a great idea. No reason to own a CDP account other than investing so you will more or less target those who need it.

Last edited by hound297; 12-05-2019 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:28 PM   #3387
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The Monetary Authority of Singapore has belatedly, gradually started to take these steps. For example, the CPF Investment Scheme now requires certain minimal education.

I don’t think it’s enough. I think, at the very least, the MAS should require sub-S$250,000 retail issues to carry actual bond ratings — bond ratings the MAS is already subsidizing.
I agree on the bond rating part.

And they should not allow perpectual securities with no redemption dates.

Hyflux is now making use of the no redemption clause to keep the perps so that they can't vote and object to restructuring. While transferring assets to a new company which can then pay dividends thereby overcoming the condition that no dividends can be paid if perps are not paid.

Quite cruel actually. In this sense since retail investors are doomed anyway, I actually hope Hyflux will liquidate. It is cruel to give them false hope. Some of them don't seem to understand and were happy not to be written off now.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:36 PM   #3388
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Why stop at bonds? Why not make everyone who wants a CDP account take a test? Why not grade equities as well?
No test for CDP please. Don't forget SSB also requires CDP.

Generally people who buy equities are willing to take more risk compared to those who buy bonds and perps.

A lot of people including me thinks that bonds and perps have less risk because in the event of liquidation they rank above equities. That's why Hyflux saga shook me up. Make me realise that bonds and perps can also lose most of capital.

Last edited by vsvs24; 12-05-2019 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:44 PM   #3389
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No test for CDP please. Don't forget SSB also requires CDP.

Generally people who buy equities are willing to take more risk compared to those who buy bonds and perps.

A lot of people including me thinks that bonds and perps have less risk because in the event of liquidation they rank above equities. That's why Hyflux saga pshook me up. Make me realise that bonds and perps can also lose most of capital.
The bonds are not even capital guaranteed so there is a potential to lose all of the capital invested...It is clearly stated in the prospectus...Just because bond holder rank higher than the equity holders, doesn't mean that they are the first in line in the case of liquidation...

Perpetuity already means that there is no fixed redemption date...I don't even know how anyone with a brain can somehow think that a company which can borrow money and repay back in perpetuity is somehow safer than an equity...If a company decide to redeem it after 100 years, it is the right of the company as you willingly loan the money for perpetuity...



This picture basically summarize what people want is the government to protect them from making their own stupid decision...
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:56 PM   #3390
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No test for CDP please. Don't forget SSB also requires CDP.

Generally people who buy equities are willing to take more risk compared to those who buy bonds and perps.

A lot of people including me thinks that bonds and perps have less risk because in the event of liquidation they rank above equities. That's why Hyflux saga shook me up. Make me realise that bonds and perps can also lose most of capital.
Are SSB guaranteed? Are SGS bonds guaranteed? What makes you think people who buy equities are generally willing to except more risks? Even FD in banks are only insured to a certain amount.

And since you admitted that as an average joe; you have no ideas on risks associated with corporate bonds, wouldn’t you fare worse with equities? So why shouldn’t you be tested before allowing to own a CDP account?
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