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Old 18-05-2019, 09:43 PM   #3466
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Quite true
Pretty sad for investors
Especially the audit reportís classification
More needs to be done

Hi dude, as investors, we all want the best outcome for our investments.

Even if our investment goes bad, we have to do our utmost to recover what we can. While I don't think public money should be used to bail out personal investments, it is fair game if investors have reasons to believe that certain parties did not discharge their duties responsibility.

You can see in liquidation reports that liquidators follow a strict procedure when looking at avenues for recovery. Most recently when California Fitness went bankrupt (the report from the liquidators was published recently):

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/e...e-6024389.html

The liquidators found that the auditors and certain members of management and the BoD did not act responsibly. They also attempted to pursue legal action against them, but weighed it against the resources it would cost to do so, as well as the estimated benefit they would have obtained if they were successful. Ultimately, they decided against it (for various reasons).

This is to say that even if a company goes under, recovery is still possible from various parties. The probability of success would obviously differ from case to case, as it would from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The US, for example, has a much more litigious cultutre, and also courts that have a lot more experience in these matters.

So we shouldn't simply dismiss these investors as naive, foolish, or stupid. Certain ideas may sound more far-fetched than others, but in times of distress, things are seldom as clear and the situation can change very quickly.

Rather than bash people for their motives (which honestly is the same as any investor who just wants the best return for his investment) why don't we objectively evaluate the suggestions and critique them.

If these hyflux investors succeed in court, it would bring a whole lot of benefits to me and you. Management, directors, and auditors would have to be held to a higher level of scrutiny because they know they can be sued if they are not up to mark. Corporate governance as a whole would increase in the country (I don't have much faith in the current level of corporate governance).

I didn't invest in Hyflux, but I certainly hope these investors are able to get back something. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps there were some warning signs flashing. But how about the management or auditors? Why should they be allowed to just wash their hands and walk off? Why didn't management impair their assets; how about the auditors who signed off the audit report?

The interesting thing is, if the auditors had written down the assets of the company much earlier, Hyflux might not have even been allowed to issue these wonky instruments because of the company's high leverage (Caveat: I have little knowledge regarding the status of Hyflux at the time of issuance and do not know if it ought to have been impaired at that point). A lot of time and heartache could have been saved by everyone involved.
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Old 18-05-2019, 09:46 PM   #3467
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70% still win?
V hard to guess this year. Many are eager for change.
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Old 18-05-2019, 10:04 PM   #3468
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V hard to guess this year. Many are eager for change.
Not just the Hyflux issue. Dissatisfaction from the HDB lease, increase in GST, fake law act, allowing taxis to bid for COE, no enforcement of PMD and cyclists etc.
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Old 18-05-2019, 10:11 PM   #3469
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Glad to see your post Frostwurm.

I have been very uncomfortable and sad seeing many people jeering at Hyflux investors and wishing bad things happen to them. To me, some of them are just venting and emotional. I don't think they don't know that 100% recovery is not possible. I pity them. They are helpless and no one can help them.
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Old 18-05-2019, 10:39 PM   #3470
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Glad to see your post Frostwurm.

I have been very uncomfortable and sad seeing many people jeering at Hyflux investors and wishing bad things happen to them. To me, some of them are just venting and emotional. I don't think they don't know that 100% recovery is not possible. I pity them. They are helpless and no one can help them.
just wonder what is it about this category of investors that cannot let go. I'm sure there are other investors who have suffered losses in the stock market but have moved on.... myself, I've already mentioned that I got hit by big mark-to-market losses for 2018, possibly larger loss than some hyflux investors, but I moved on, and focus on growing my wealth in 2019
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Old 18-05-2019, 11:00 PM   #3471
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just wonder what is it about this category of investors that cannot let go. I'm sure there are other investors who have suffered losses in the stock market but have moved on.... myself, I've already mentioned that I got hit by big mark-to-market losses for 2018, possibly larger loss than some hyflux investors, but I moved on, and focus on growing my wealth in 2019
Good for those who can move on. From what I read, some of them invested their life savings and they are retirees. I suppose more difficult for them to move on. Those who invest less or are still working will find it easier to move on. We can say now who ask them to invest their entire life savings or did not do due diligence. But they are already caught in the situation now. So to me, if it helps them to vent their frustration so be it. Maybe because I grow up in a family with elderlies who nags so I feel more for them.
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Old 19-05-2019, 12:03 AM   #3472
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Hi dude, as investors, we all want the best outcome for our investments.
Of course we all want the best outcome from our investment...

12Even if our investment goes bad, we have to do our utmost to recover what we can. While I don't think public money should be used to bail out personal investments, it is fair game if investors have reasons to believe that certain parties did not discharge their duties responsibility.

You can see in liquidation reports that liquidators follow a strict procedure when looking at avenues for recovery. Most recently when California Fitness went bankrupt (the report from the liquidators was published recently):

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/e...e-6024389.html

The liquidators found that the auditors and certain members of management and the BoD did not act responsibly. They also attempted to pursue legal action against them, but weighed it against the resources it would cost to do so, as well as the estimated benefit they would have obtained if they were successful. Ultimately, they decided against it (for various reasons).

This is to say that even if a company goes under, recovery is still possible from various parties. The probability of success would obviously differ from case to case, as it would from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The US, for example, has a much more litigious cultutre, and also courts that have a lot more experience in these matters.


MAS and PMO hold the golden key to their recovery, not Hyflux, the Board of Directors or Olivia Lum...That is their target which is essentially the taxpayers have to foot the bill of their 100% plus all accumulated interest...This is what they want...They don't care about facts and logics... Obviously the only entity that could pay back the $900m owed to the PnP is a big entity like a government agency...Even if all the BOD were to get all their assets seized it will still fall short of the $900m..

So we shouldn't simply dismiss these investors as naive, foolish, or stupid. Certain ideas may sound more far-fetched than others, but in times of distress, things are seldom as clear and the situation can change very quickly.

Rather than bash people for their motives (which honestly is the same as any investor who just wants the best return for his investment) why don't we objectively evaluate the suggestions and critique them.




If you try to talk sense to them, you will be immediately be labeled as a troll and they will call for a ban immediately... Basically, if you say that you don't mind cutting losses or that 100% plus all accumulated interest is not feasible, you will be labeled as a troll and people will call for the Admins to ban you...

If these hyflux investors succeed in court, it would bring a whole lot of benefits to me and you. Management, directors, and auditors would have to be held to a higher level of scrutiny because they know they can be sued if they are not up to mark. Corporate governance as a whole would increase in the country (I don't have much faith in the current level of corporate governance).

I didn't invest in Hyflux, but I certainly hope these investors are able to get back something. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps there were some warning signs flashing. But how about the management or auditors? Why should they be allowed to just wash their hands and walk off? Why didn't management impair their assets; how about the auditors who signed off the audit report?

The interesting thing is, if the auditors had written down the assets of the company much earlier, Hyflux might not have even been allowed to issue these wonky instruments because of the company's high leverage (Caveat: I have little knowledge regarding the status of Hyflux at the time of issuance and do not know if it ought to have been impaired at that point). A lot of time and heartache could have been saved by everyone involved.
Ask Artician how he felt when they talk that any litigation is zero risk to the Investors...He is a PnP investors when he raised the issue of the litigation cost, all start hurling abuse at him...They are not there to listen to reason...All they believe is this...



If you join the Telegram chat, you think they really want to reason with you...Facts and logic would not get back 100% plus all accumulated interest...

Last edited by makav31i; 19-05-2019 at 12:20 AM..
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Old 19-05-2019, 12:12 AM   #3473
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Glad to see your post Frostwurm.

I have been very uncomfortable and sad seeing many people jeering at Hyflux investors and wishing bad things happen to them. To me, some of them are just venting and emotional. I don't think they don't know that 100% recovery is not possible. I pity them. They are helpless and no one can help them.
No, the Telegram Chat is living in a fantasy that they only will get 100% recovery plus all accumulated interest at zero risk...This are what that is being propagated by the Admins in the group chat...











They are the ones sharing this kind of thoughts...What if someone who don't know any better join there and see that they get to recover 100% plus all accumulated interest at zero risk?
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Old 19-05-2019, 12:16 AM   #3474
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Will be v impacting to Aljunied GRC for this year.
corrected for you .

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Old 19-05-2019, 12:19 AM   #3475
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Good for those who can move on. From what I read, some of them invested their life savings and they are retirees. I suppose more difficult for them to move on. Those who invest less or are still working will find it easier to move on. We can say now who ask them to invest their entire life savings or did not do due diligence. But they are already caught in the situation now. So to me, if it helps them to vent their frustration so be it. Maybe because I grow up in a family with elderlies who nags so I feel more for them.
How many of the 34,000 retail investors are retirees, Pioneer Generation or Merdeka Generation or invested their whole life savings?It is easy to seek sympathy for the whole 34,000 retail investors by using the retirees who invested their whole life savings onto Hyflux...If the Admins really wanted to help this group of people, they would point them to the hotlines for counseling or financial assistance scheme that should be able to help the retirees who invested their whole life savings in their retirement...
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Old 19-05-2019, 07:14 AM   #3476
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Thanks Makav31i for posting.

The worst that can happen to a cause is when no one is interested.
Think you helped in marketing it, even if you are against and twisting words , better than if it was silent.
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Last edited by sgdividends; 19-05-2019 at 07:35 AM..
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Old 19-05-2019, 08:45 AM   #3477
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No, the Telegram Chat is living in a fantasy that they only will get 100% recovery plus all accumulated interest at zero risk...This are what that is being propagated by the Admins in the group chat...











They are the ones sharing this kind of thoughts...What if someone who don't know any better join there and see that they get to recover 100% plus all accumulated interest at zero risk?
This guy has an unknown ulterior motive. Everything is dying down but he just continue to stir shyt and stir negative feelings. I stand by my change in perception of his attitude, conduct and his blog writings.
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Old 19-05-2019, 09:16 AM   #3478
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This guy has an unknown ulterior motive. Everything is dying down but he just continue to stir shyt and stir negative feelings. I stand by my change in perception of his attitude, conduct and his blog writings.
Objectively speaking, there might be some reasons for their anger:

1. Misrepresentation by the party who sold them the instrument (Banker said it was xxx when he sold me but it was actually yyy)
2. Misrepresentation by Hyflux at the time of issuance (So ultimately were you a water or electricity company? Why you make me think otherwise?)
3. Material non-disclosure by Hyflux (You entered into a terrible loss-making deal but didn't disclose properly and still issue)
4. Management negligent in running the company (The plant was already in negative carry but you still didn't write it down)
5. BoD negligent (So much nonsense going on but you didn't do anything to Olivia)
6. Auditor negligent (Should have said/done something about Hyflux years ago so we would not have bought their junk)

But I guess if one has put his whole life-savings into it from watching Olivia as a poster girl for success stories, it's really tough luck.
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Old 19-05-2019, 10:30 AM   #3479
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Objectively speaking, there might be some reasons for their anger:

1. Misrepresentation by the party who sold them the instrument (Banker said it was xxx when he sold me but it was actually yyy)
2. Misrepresentation by Hyflux at the time of issuance (So ultimately were you a water or electricity company? Why you make me think otherwise?)
3. Material non-disclosure by Hyflux (You entered into a terrible loss-making deal but didn't disclose properly and still issue)
4. Management negligent in running the company (The plant was already in negative carry but you still didn't write it down)
5. BoD negligent (So much nonsense going on but you didn't do anything to Olivia)
6. Auditor negligent (Should have said/done something about Hyflux years ago so we would not have bought their junk)

But I guess if one has put his whole life-savings into it from watching Olivia as a poster girl for success stories, it's really tough luck.
So not a single reason to blame own-self for not doing enough due diligence?

Hyflux did not go bust overnight due to fraud. There were ample warning signs for its downfall.
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Old 19-05-2019, 10:31 AM   #3480
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Objectively speaking, there might be some reasons for their anger:

1. Misrepresentation by the party who sold them the instrument (Banker said it was xxx when he sold me but it was actually yyy)
2. Misrepresentation by Hyflux at the time of issuance (So ultimately were you a water or electricity company? Why you make me think otherwise?)
3. Material non-disclosure by Hyflux (You entered into a terrible loss-making deal but didn't disclose properly and still issue)
4. Management negligent in running the company (The plant was already in negative carry but you still didn't write it down)
5. BoD negligent (So much nonsense going on but you didn't do anything to Olivia)
6. Auditor negligent (Should have said/done something about Hyflux years ago so we would not have bought their junk)

But I guess if one has put his whole life-savings into it from watching Olivia as a poster girl for success stories, it's really tough luck.
Anger only affect 1000+ people among the 34,000 investors? What about the silent majority of the 34,000 investors or you just assume that the view of those who turn up for the HLP protest or those who participated in the Telegram chat is representative of the 34,000 investors?
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