AMD Zen 4 Discussion Thread (31% faster than ADL)

darkmatt

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but 5.5GHz during gaming is quite a lot vs 5950x. Then don't know will have 3D cache version or not, also the 24 cores model.
i wonder if amd can sustain 5.5GHz all core.

if can maybe thats where the 30% came from..

so far no specs on how many cores that 5.5GHz is
 

Phen8210

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AMD needs to work on the little things that matter. Intel's new architecture isn't problem-free either since it's relatively new. We have to see how they both iron out the issues moving forward.

Stability, Compatibility, and Performance are top priorities. Having extra is a bonus, don't have then too bad. Most of the issues are blown out of proportion and do not matter for general usage such as gaming. In real-world use, it has zero difference.

I wouldn't spend too much time tweaking and nitpicking on things that don't make any impact as it does not make me any $$$.

This is coming from a person where the computer is the rice bowl.
 

elmariachi

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AMD needs to work on the little things that matter. Intel's new architecture isn't problem-free either since it's relatively new. We have to see how they both iron out the issues moving forward.

Stability, Compatibility, and Performance are top priorities. Having extra is a bonus, don't have then too bad. Most of the issues are blown out of proportion and do not matter for general usage such as gaming. In real-world use, it has zero difference.

I wouldn't spend too much time tweaking and nitpicking on things that don't make any impact as it does not make me any $$$.

This is coming from a person where the computer is the rice bowl.

Intel's 12th gen was rushed on a new platform. 90% of the issues were DDR5 related. And some boards like Asus had defective RAM slots which ruined the overall experience of hopping onto new technology. AMD will also have their fair share of problems once they transition to the new platform especially their AM5 will be only DDR5. Because not every CPU is the same with IMC, DDR5 configs will largely differ from CPU sample / PC setup. And this is what AMD and Board partners have to solve/optimize. Intel went through this and it was a colossal mess but it is solved now.

I think what most people are referring to are the ongoing problems with AGESA updates and the USB dropouts even with the latest patches even until today. That is something AMD still have to improve on. Prior 9th Gen to 11th Gen that I have used were flawless till the day I sold it off. I did not experience any issues other than the stupid Spectre patches that slowed down the system but it did not compromise on stability and functionality at any point. 12th Gen was a chaotic upgrade for me for my first board and now with the RMAed 2nd board, everything simply works. As with all new platforms, expect bugs and incompatibilities at launch. What matters is long term stability and functionality remains intact during the course of your ownership.
 

watzup_ken

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Its quite odd that the USB dropout issue persists. The last time I tested on my 5800X, it was working fine after the BIOS update. The issue was very obvious when it happens since my mouse gets unresponsive from time to time, and I can always hear the Windows notification of USB being removed and connected then. But all that went away after the first time AMD said they have fixed the issue. The good thing is that there is no such nonsense on their mobile APUs, at least based on the ones that I tested.
 

watzup_ken

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not bery impressive leh. ST only 15% faster than a stock 5950X in cinebench23.....

31% faster in blender than Adl but with 35% more cores than Adl and on newer 5nm....

Rpl will add more E-cores....

quite worrying times for amd
Based on rumors, the killer feature on Raptor Lake is likely the increase in cache, than the additional E-cores. But what is worrying for Intel is how much power will be required for Raptor Lake. On the same 10nm, Intel is trying to increase cache, cores and clockspeed. While Intel can try and refine their chip as much as they want, I am not expecting a miracle where power consumption remains the same or lower than with ADL. And for most users that are getting the chip for gaming, those E-cores don't really contribute much to performance since the system will utilise the P-cores for the workload.
 

matique

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Based on rumors, the killer feature on Raptor Lake is likely the increase in cache, than the additional E-cores. But what is worrying for Intel is how much power will be required for Raptor Lake. On the same 10nm, Intel is trying to increase cache, cores and clockspeed. While Intel can try and refine their chip as much as they want, I am not expecting a miracle where power consumption remains the same or lower than with ADL. And for most users that are getting the chip for gaming, those E-cores don't really contribute much to performance since the system will utilise the P-cores for the workload.

Those that complain about power only see such issues benching. Under normal gaming scenario, the cpu doesn't even draw >150w. At the very worst, a badly binned 12900k will have like 130w ish in games. A decent bin 12900k w/ ecores turned off, and some manual voltage manipulation (mobo usually feeds too much voltage) and the chip will draw 20-30w less. AAA games at 1440p and up wouldn't even tax the CPU.

Those who like to bench and are serious about it will delid and have custom loops with even better contact patch, and this would reduce temps significantly too.

Extreme example: nice bin 12900k + delid + copper IHS + washer mod + custom loop [optimus sig v2] + manual voltage + ecores turned off, ht on.

HFlQx5k.jpg


That said, I hope AMD does well and keep up with the 12900k. Out of the box, ryzen will be more efficient definitely and doesn't require much tweaking to get good temps. But I would put lower my hopes for it being revolutionary, because that 15% ST uplift doesn't really bode well especially with RPL around the corner as well this year. Like you said, its increased cache and improved ST over ADL would probably win zen4 this round.
 

firesong

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Those that complain about power only see such issues benching. Under normal gaming scenario, the cpu doesn't even draw >150w. At the very worst, a badly binned 12900k will have like 130w ish in games. A decent bin 12900k w/ ecores turned off, and some manual voltage manipulation (mobo usually feeds too much voltage) and the chip will draw 20-30w less. AAA games at 1440p and up wouldn't even tax the CPU.

Those who like to bench and are serious about it will delid and have custom loops with even better contact patch, and this would reduce temps significantly too.

Extreme example: nice bin 12900k + delid + copper IHS + washer mod + custom loop [optimus sig v2] + manual voltage + ecores turned off, ht on.

HFlQx5k.jpg


That said, I hope AMD does well and keep up with the 12900k. Out of the box, ryzen will be more efficient definitely and doesn't require much tweaking to get good temps. But I would put lower my hopes for it being revolutionary, because that 15% ST uplift doesn't really bode well especially with RPL around the corner as well this year. Like you said, its increased cache and improved ST over ADL would probably win zen4 this round.
Not entirely true. Both also manufacture laptop chips, and power issues on laptops is a pretty big thing. The 3-4h runtime difference of ADL compared to Ryzen 5000 offerings is not insignificant for mobile users.

Perhaps AD/RaptorL are more suited for desktop applications given their higher power consumption ratings, and desktops obviously don't care much for power efficiency. That means that Intel could lose mobile revenue though, which may have a knock-on effect on the financials for the company.
 

Phen8210

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Not entirely true. Both also manufacture laptop chips, and power issues on laptops is a pretty big thing. The 3-4h runtime difference of ADL compared to Ryzen 5000 offerings is not insignificant for mobile users.

Perhaps AD/RaptorL are more suited for desktop applications given their higher power consumption ratings, and desktops obviously don't care much for power efficiency. That means that Intel could lose mobile revenue though, which may have a knock-on effect on the financials for the company.

That is indeed a massive difference even outside of gaming. I wonder how the low-powered chips perform?
127622.png


Based on rumors, the killer feature on Raptor Lake is likely the increase in cache, than the additional E-cores. But what is worrying for Intel is how much power will be required for Raptor Lake. On the same 10nm, Intel is trying to increase cache, cores and clockspeed. While Intel can try and refine their chip as much as they want, I am not expecting a miracle where power consumption remains the same or lower than with ADL. And for most users that are getting the chip for gaming, those E-cores don't really contribute much to performance since the system will utilise the P-cores for the workload.

That's true.

In gaming, a fully tuned 12900k is still ages away from the 5800X3D in power efficiency. AMD is more straightforward to get the most out of it, while Intel favors users who love fine-tuning and have more than aftermarket cooling solutions.

The 12900K @ stock in CPU-intensive games can draw more than 150w, which is when targeting 160+ fps.
123.jpg


For non-CPU-intensive titles, it sits around 80w-110w, depending on the scenario.

After tuning, it shaves off around 20w. When fine-tuned and used in a non-CPU-intensive title, it's possible to reach as low as 50-60w in such a setting.
 
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firesong

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ah yeah, for laptop I use AMD. Rocking my Slim 7 pro with a 4800H and battery life is pretty amazing. That said, laptop gaming is kinda stupid so anything laptop gaming related is dead to me.
Yep. Was just pointing out that in most other typical uses outside of gaming, power consumption is an issue.

When we consider that the power efficiency failure in their architecture also affects a significant segment of their revenue, it has a knock-on effect on their profits overall (ie, if they want to remain profitable, they may choose to sell desktops at higher prices to compensate for projected losses, or just accept losses for this chipset and move on). In this Tom's article, they notably shipped 16% fewer laptops YoY and blamed "competition" for lower profits from their Client Computing Group sales. The losses were largely hidden by more aggressive desktop chip sales, but they still suffered losses - especially notable that they could not solely blame Apple's M1 for accounting for all that loss, which invariably means that AMD (and to a small extent Qualcomm) may be responsible for that.

Overall, they won't lose money, but it is sad that the outlook does not bode well for consumers overall. Let's hope datacentre/server chip sales compensate for the losses so at least desktop chip prices won't suffer for that. If anything, many enterprise customers will still buy Intel, even if the battery life is crap. :s13: But most discerning end-consumers will not.

But on the Red camp side, this is AMD's best chance to steal a march in a segment that will increasingly become popular - more home users are foregoing desktops for laptops for many reasons, so securing this segment can be a competitive strategy for AMD, since Intel clearly dropped the ball here. They need to fix their own architecture though, since AMD isn't quite kosher with enthusiasts right now. :(
 
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Mach3.2

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Intel is also notability absent from the HEDT market. Their most recent HEDT platform is still in the X299 days.
 

haylui

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Intel's 12th gen was rushed on a new platform. 90% of the issues were DDR5 related. And some boards like Asus had defective RAM slots which ruined the overall experience of hopping onto new technology. AMD will also have their fair share of problems once they transition to the new platform especially their AM5 will be only DDR5. Because not every CPU is the same with IMC, DDR5 configs will largely differ from CPU sample / PC setup. And this is what AMD and Board partners have to solve/optimize. Intel went through this and it was a colossal mess but it is solved now.

I think what most people are referring to are the ongoing problems with AGESA updates and the USB dropouts even with the latest patches even until today. That is something AMD still have to improve on. Prior 9th Gen to 11th Gen that I have used were flawless till the day I sold it off. I did not experience any issues other than the stupid Spectre patches that slowed down the system but it did not compromise on stability and functionality at any point. 12th Gen was a chaotic upgrade for me for my first board and now with the RMAed 2nd board, everything simply works. As with all new platforms, expect bugs and incompatibilities at launch. What matters is long term stability and functionality remains intact during the course of your ownership.
Usb isn't new so I believe it has something to do with the implementation. Which is the choice of bridging chip used. Otherwise how to explain a matured technology giving glitches like this.

But so far all my Ryzen systems are fine with USB.
 

haylui

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Intel is also notability absent from the HEDT market. Their most recent HEDT platform is still in the X299 days.
Can't even compete with TR which is coming from Zen 2. Not to mention Zen 3 TR. Unless ADL can expand to 64 cores as well.
 

haylui

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Those that complain about power only see such issues benching. Under normal gaming scenario, the cpu doesn't even draw >150w. At the very worst, a badly binned 12900k will have like 130w ish in games. A decent bin 12900k w/ ecores turned off, and some manual voltage manipulation (mobo usually feeds too much voltage) and the chip will draw 20-30w less. AAA games at 1440p and up wouldn't even tax the CPU.

Those who like to bench and are serious about it will delid and have custom loops with even better contact patch, and this would reduce temps significantly too.

Extreme example: nice bin 12900k + delid + copper IHS + washer mod + custom loop [optimus sig v2] + manual voltage + ecores turned off, ht on.

HFlQx5k.jpg


That said, I hope AMD does well and keep up with the 12900k. Out of the box, ryzen will be more efficient definitely and doesn't require much tweaking to get good temps. But I would put lower my hopes for it being revolutionary, because that 15% ST uplift doesn't really bode well especially with RPL around the corner as well this year. Like you said, its increased cache and improved ST over ADL would probably win zen4 this round.
I believe under Lisa's lead, she won't allow what happened to AMD 20 years ago. While leading, just go slacking.
The ST increase 15% might look a bit less. Maybe there is something other things that could boost the performance. AMD also didn't disclose much benchmark yet.

Look at the increments from Ryzen 5000 to Ryzen 6000 in mobile segment. There is at least 10% performance uplift with tweaking Zen 3 microarchitecture. I think Zen 4 is better than this.
 

firesong

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I believe under Lisa's lead, she won't allow what happened to AMD 20 years ago. While leading, just go slacking.
The ST increase 15% might look a bit less. Maybe there is something other things that could boost the performance. AMD also didn't disclose much benchmark yet.

Look at the increments from Ryzen 5000 to Ryzen 6000 in mobile segment. There is at least 10% performance uplift with tweaking Zen 3 microarchitecture. I think Zen 4 is better than this.
I agree. She's not one to rest on her laurels. I suppose she also can't, since the competition is still strong. Also, because of Apple's move the threat of ARM making a good leap into traditional desktop computing processors is very real, and she must be quite aware of that. The battery life-performance ratio of the MacBook is so attractive to many users who do mobile computing, and that is a key differentiator. While there is room for high performance, we want all-day computing without having to carry a charger. Doesn't help that Microsoft has constantly mentioned the existence of Windows on ARM being ready, and Visual Studio already ported to ARM - opening doors for an entire architecture shift.

Her engineering background also helps her to be more in tune with the product, so she's in a good place to understand the product yet drive the company from a management position.

We consumers stand to benefit from all this competition, but I do hope no one really gets killed off because that invariably means a slowdown in innovation. I doubt ARM will really win, but if AMD64 doesn't meet market demand, it could be in trouble.

Ironically, I think apps will continue to drive AMD64's relevance, especially games. If Qualcomm manages to get a foothold in the gaming market, it'll be difficult times for consumers.
 

matique

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Yep. Was just pointing out that in most other typical uses outside of gaming, power consumption is an issue.

When we consider that the power efficiency failure in their architecture also affects a significant segment of their revenue, it has a knock-on effect on their profits overall (ie, if they want to remain profitable, they may choose to sell desktops at higher prices to compensate for projected losses, or just accept losses for this chipset and move on). In this Tom's article, they notably shipped 16% fewer laptops YoY and blamed "competition" for lower profits from their Client Computing Group sales. The losses were largely hidden by more aggressive desktop chip sales, but they still suffered losses - especially notable that they could not solely blame Apple's M1 for accounting for all that loss, which invariably means that AMD (and to a small extent Qualcomm) may be responsible for that.

Overall, they won't lose money, but it is sad that the outlook does not bode well for consumers overall. Let's hope datacentre/server chip sales compensate for the losses so at least desktop chip prices won't suffer for that. If anything, many enterprise customers will still buy Intel, even if the battery life is crap. :s13: But most discerning end-consumers will not.

But on the Red camp side, this is AMD's best chance to steal a march in a segment that will increasingly become popular - more home users are foregoing desktops for laptops for many reasons, so securing this segment can be a competitive strategy for AMD, since Intel clearly dropped the ball here. They need to fix their own architecture though, since AMD isn't quite kosher with enthusiasts right now. :(

I think biggest issue with ryzen laptops with professionals is their "new" image. Laptops have usually been mainly Intel chips, and only after 4000 mobile series did AMD start to pick up. That said, the chips don't exist too much in the "premium" slim and light notebooks or on the professional business notebooks. It's picking up though. For laptops I really do like and since it runs cool ish, has lots of performance, and the battery life damn solid.

Wondering if its because some enterprise software doesn't play nice with AMD? I know some are very optimised for Intel...

Intel is also notability absent from the HEDT market. Their most recent HEDT platform is still in the X299 days.

Alderlake X and Sapphire Rapids should be launching within the year. Should be a good refresh for HEDT. Though idk if they can claw back market share from TR & Epyc.

I believe under Lisa's lead, she won't allow what happened to AMD 20 years ago. While leading, just go slacking.
The ST increase 15% might look a bit less. Maybe there is something other things that could boost the performance. AMD also didn't disclose much benchmark yet.

Look at the increments from Ryzen 5000 to Ryzen 6000 in mobile segment. There is at least 10% performance uplift with tweaking Zen 3 microarchitecture. I think Zen 4 is better than this.

Yeah probably banking on better l2/l3 cache to get better FPS in game, though Raptor Lake will come with increased L2 cache and this + 15% ipc should land itself a good fight against AMD.

I want both to do well because in the end, consumers like us will win šŸ˜ but amd must fix its stability issues and OC scaling for enthusiasts. Only thing I'm scared of would be pricing for AMD. Seems like their x670e is like a money grab... Hopefully they make up for it with performance.
 

KYZT2021

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No Choice Intel always able to influence OEM for laptop
 

trenzterra

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Compared to last time I think AMD has already done a very good job in the mobile space. Back in the 2000s, even with the Athlon 64 leading, the Turion was virtually non existent and everyone just buys a Centrino laptop.

Nowadays you go any store selling laptops, I think about 30 to 40% are AMD designs and many are mid to high end options and gaming options
 
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