Bookshelf Speakers chat

benedium

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Ok. Am I correct to assume if 2 speakers measure extremely well like almost 99.9% rating according to ASR ratings, they would probably sound the same playing the same content? Or are there other audible factors not included in ASR measurements?
 

wwenze

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TBH the "good speakers" I've heard so far all sound pretty close to each other that I won't be bothered too much using one over the other. Especially after EQ. So the main differences are bass extension and dispersion behavior. And of course max power if that matters. (Although power & bass is like the same thing.) Somebody had asked the question - What is the worst speaker that we can EQ until it sounds good?

Measurements are intended to capture things that even the human ear can't detect or quantify. Distortion below 100dB in the signal would go below 0dB SPL in real life i.e. your room noise is probably louder, but measurement equipment easily catches that.

And even the human ear can be made more accurate with the appropriate test tones: Sine tones to detect distortion, sine sweep to detect frequency variation. I mean, we suddenly have so many posting about "real life" vs structured testing. Well yea the speed of a car on Top Gear racetrack is important, but so are simple tests like 0-100kph and turn radius etc.

We even have methods to amplify those distortions/noise so that our ear can hear that better.

End of the day, what we want to know is, how bad does it sound and how much margin from audibility do we have.

And so far, frequency response is showing to be the most important factor.

Measurements are ever-evolving too. We now have software to generate just the distortion difference signal so you can hear for yourself whether you can hear 0.1% distortion. Spinorama is a 2013 or 2014 creation. And Amir's new 32-tone IMD for speaker is going to be pretty painful to speakers, we'll have to see.
 

benedium

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Wow cool. Means in future maybe more speaker companies will try to live up to ASRs latest standards. Maybe I should wait before I upgrade speakers. Hope one day speakers that measure like a Genelec can cost $500 a pair.
 

hmsweethm

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I'm always wary of audition at shop because bass and general sound depends a lot on positioning. Your bass at home may be greater because back wall + table + small room + small distance
So meaning we can’t test products at shop like I can’t decide on 2 amps.
I never hear them before. Only read online for the reviews and tests.
Then the equation we have only 1 variable which is the amp.
Speakers, cables & room will remain same.
Then listen to the sound of both amps produced & select from there.
But after buy Liao and go home hook up, the sound will be different due to room?
I’m planning to use this method to shortlist the amps.
 

wwenze

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You test against another speaker that you know.

Apparently even that can have problem from my own experience in my room, but that's better than nothing.

I often mentioned this in my reviews, that the speakers all sound so close to each other, the positioning actually created a bigger effect.
 
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benedium

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Means even ASR highest rated speakers may sound very similar to my $300 speakers... only microphone and computer can pick up differences.
This is very sad. Bye bye Adelphi. It was nice knowing u.
 

benedium

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I feel like a veil is lifted. I think i understand what u have been trying to tell us all this time now wwenze. Many of us have been like under a spell. And now I am free! :)
 

wwenze

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I can't decide whether that is sarcasm or genuine

At the current performance levels, speakers are "I can hear a difference but I can't conclude whether it is better or not". For good speakers, anyway. (And then we will have the PMC supporters coming in saying that's how it should sound like.)
Without a completely flat frequency response, this is where speakers will be stuck at.

The next level is "I can't hear a difference under some situations". For example, the ability to playback below 40Hz has marginal benefits with most music material. SPL, dispersion i.e. whether you can put this speaker way off-axis or not, these are some other examples.

The next level is "I can't hear a difference under nearly all situations." This is where audio electronics are at right now. Extreme situations where differences can be heard include trying to use a sound card at low output volume with a sensitive IEM.

Then the next level is "I can't hear a difference at all and I still have 20dB worth of headroom to make sure I reeeeeally can't hear a difference", which is where expensive audio electronics are at.

Then there is finally "I know this is going to matter jack sh*t but let's go to the extreme of physics and maths possible because why not".

Speakers below $300 are mostly at "I can hear a difference and it sucks"

Training and learning can increase the point at which "I can hear a difference but I can't conclude whether it is better or not". Check out Harman's "How To Listen" listener training software application
 
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benedium

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Haha wwenze, I was not being sarcastic. U must remember I will never know as much as u or even lxXXxl so I come to conclusions mostly for my own convenience which is mostly budget related. I imagine at my budget I use a $1k avr, so maybe with that power or quality used on a high end speaker like R3, it will probably not result in differences proportional to the price difference? And then there is the factor of my own hearing and perception. As well as the CMI conditions of my $300k flat as lxXXxl very accurately predicted.
 
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benedium

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My friend was gonna spend $8k on a pair of speakers but now I am gonna advise him to just get kef r3. So really not sarcastic. I really felt a veil being lifted and a spell being broken.
 

benedium

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I may still get the elac dbr62 although really hoping the price will drop.
 

benedium

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Oh i have a question... if I get elac dbr62, should I get the dedicated centre speaker or would it be better if I use half a pair of identical dbr62 for center channel. Any advantages or disadvantages other than the low profile dimensions?
 

benedium

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In the meantime wwenze, I have to slowly read and digest what u wrote above. U really are the best. Thanks.
 

Clearnfc

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Haha wwenze, I was not being sarcastic. U must remember I will never know as much as u or even lxXXxl so I come to conclusions mostly for my own convenience which is mostly budget related. I imagine at my budget I use a $1k avr, so maybe with that power or quality used on a high end speaker like R3, it will probably not result in differences proportional to the price difference? And then there is the factor of my own hearing and perception. As well as the CMI conditions of my $300k flat as lxXXxl very accurately predicted.

$1K AVR will be tough. Because depending on amp design, it may not have enough power to drive the speak properly. This is why.

Assuming your amp is traditional class AB one. At $1K, each channel of the amp will likely have just 1 pair of mosfet or bjt (many are using bjt). The real problem is the current. The transistor may be rate 100W or 150W, but current is limited to ~15A peak. Its not going to be enough to drive the speaker well at higher volume.

However, some AVRs do allow you to bridge transistors from other channels (becomes a more powerful stereo amp), you will need to check if you AVR allows you to do that.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/kef-r3

Looking at the specs quoted by whathifi, its rated 8 ohm so its easier on the amp, but min of 3.2ohm so it will stress the amp at times. 87db is still ok.
 

Clearnfc

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Speakers below $300 are mostly at "I can hear a difference and it sucks"

Haha, ok lar.... mai hiam buay pai lar.....

I started out with a pair of AE aegis Evo1.... $300 from SLS a long long time ago.... Pair with with a marantz SR4300.. Already feel the sound sibeh tok kong!! esp. when compared to the logitech PC speakers...
 

benedium

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Thanks for that Clearnfc! But I can't afford Kef R3 haha. Just using it as example.
 

LiLAsN

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Interestingly enough, ASR has just revealed a new speaker that beat the KEF R3 in terms of price and with very similar performance. But it can only shine when you have a dedicated subwoofer or else, the performance of this speaker without the subwoofer is way below the KEF R3.

It's the Revel M105. Can't wait for the full review. I was wondering what this speaker was as they were teasing it as TBA (to be announced). So good that ASR isn't slowing down. So with enough patience from us, as they slowly review more, we can see objectively great sounding speakers at our own palatable budget prices. I'm looking forward to the SVS Ultra reviews if they ever come around to reviewing them. Haha.

I may still get the elac dbr62 although really hoping the price will drop.

Someone was selling their Elac DBR62 for $550 on Carousell that time. If only we had managed to convince you then. Haha
 
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benedium

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Yah I saw it also when it popped up on carousell. I really am retarded!!
 

wwenze

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Still think Neumann looks better
 
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