[CONSOLIDATED] Israel & Palestine Hamas conflict updates [History Discussion and stirring against any religion NOT ALLOWED]

[YouWish]

Read what you quote carefully.

Kindly point out to me,

First, where did I claim that " Shanmugam is highlighting that Israel is currently commiting indiscriminate killing of civilians.." - as claimed by you?

Secondly, please note what I wrote:

"By the same token Israeli forces' purported 'target Hamas' firing of missiles from Israel to Gaza is just as wrong, unacceptable and unjustifiable."




Again, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from putting words into my mouth. This is not the first time you are doing this, don't make it a habit.

Ah good good that means you were just merely providing an opinion of Sham's opinion which is fine (although now the opinion of a possible opinion really starts to lose value), although this means u will differ from below

Literally that's what he said and meant.

nope. I maintain my stand total deaths are accurate.

you on the other hand had your argument that the figures cannot be trusted defeated with no comeback.

missquote is miss quote, no need to twist here and there.

And the figures are assumed to be mostly if not all are civilians. That's why Israel is pressured by USA even to stop the killings.

Sham also made his statement with this in mind i will say. If not he won't be so direct to label the Israelis as indiscriminating killing people.

Why this assertion? Hamas fighters all hid underground during the bombings in their tunnels. You will think they so stupid to stay on top to get killed by Airstrikes?


Cheers

Good to note that one person now doesn't see it as Sham making a determination of Israel committing indiscriminate killing whilst the other is sticking to it that sham is indeed making a determination from above.

Interestingly since even in the two cases above we already have two contrasting understanding of Sham statement, one of you have to then be wrong and fortunately I think most of the rest of us here are leaning towards sham speaking his opinion and not directly making a determination... So unfortunately trying to use Sham statement to prop up your argument would fail since only one person seems to be taking it in the context that you are using (and that is yourself)

Anyway can see how you are trying to squrim out of admitting that you thought the 10k deaths were purely civilian numbers (yet still now finally knowing there is yet for the numbers to be categorized) so can just leave it out there for memory but anyway at least in future u will be more careful and instead highlight it as total deaths so that is more accurate and good to work off on anyway (so mission accomplished)

I think only you are assuming this though

"And the figures are assumed to be mostly if not all are civilians." so u should be clear that it is just merely your assumption

 

[Kunkka]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...s-hostage-deal-closer-than-before-2023-11-21/

GAZA/JERUSALEM, Nov 21 (Reuters) - The chief of Hamas told Reuters on Tuesday that the Palestinian militant group was near a truce agreement with Israel, even as the deadly assault on Gaza continued and rockets were being fired into Israel.

Hamas officials were "close to reaching a truce agreement" with Israel and the group has delivered its response to Qatari mediators, Ismail Haniyeh said in a statement sent to Reuters by his aide.


The statement gave no more details, but a Hamas official told Al Jazeera TV that negotiations were centred on how long the truce would last, arrangements for delivery of aid into Gaza and the exchange of Israeli hostages held by Hamas for Palestinian prisoners in Israel.

Both sides would free women and children and details would be announced by Qatar, which is mediating in the negotiations, said the official, Issat el Reshiq.


Israel has generally avoided giving commentary on the status of the Qatar-led talks. Israel's Channel 12 television quoted an unidentified senior government source saying "they are close" but giving no further details.

Hamas took about 240 hostages during its Oct. 7 rampage into Israel that killed 1,200 people.

Mirjana Spoljaric, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), met Haniyeh in Qatar on Monday to "advance humanitarian issues" related to the conflict, the Geneva-based ICRC said in a statement. She also separately met Qatari authorities.


The ICRC said it was not part of negotiations aimed at releasing the hostages, but as a neutral intermediary it was ready "to facilitate any future release that the parties agree to".

Talk of an imminent hostage deal has swirled for days. Reuters reported last week that Qatari mediators were seeking a deal for Hamas to release 50 hostages in return for Israel freeing some prisoners and a three-day ceasefire.


Israeli Ambassador to the United States Michael Herzog said on ABC's "This Week" on Sunday that he hoped for an agreement "in the coming days", while Qatar's Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdulrahman al-Thani said that the remaining sticking points were "very minor". U.S. President Joe Biden and other U.S. officials said on Monday a deal was near.

The Hamas raid on Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israel's 75-year-old history, prompted Israel to invade Gaza to annihilate the militant group that has ruled there since 2007.


Since then, Gaza's Hamas-run government says at least 13,300 Palestinians have been confirmed killed, including at least 5,600 children, by Israeli bombardment that has turned much of Gaza, especially its northern half, into wasteland.

Around two-thirds of Gaza's 2.3 million people have been made homeless, with thousands a day still trekking south on foot with belongings and children in their arms. The central and southern parts of the enclave, where Israel has told them to go, have also regularly come under attack.

​

Reporting by Reuters bureaux; Writing by Idrees Ali, Raju Gopalakrishnan, Peter Graff; Editing by Cynthia Osterman, Simon Cameron-Moore and Alex Richardson

 

[Ghostpel]

Mosque used as cover to produce military explosives.

Must be fake news, AI created.

 

[BlackWing1977]

 

[eclipsemints]

Ah good good that means you were just merely providing an opinion of Sham's opinion which is fine (although now the opinion of a possible opinion really starts to lose value), although this means u will differ from below





Good to note that one person now doesn't see it as Sham making a determination of Israel committing indiscriminate killing whilst the other is sticking to it that sham is indeed making a determination from above.

Interestingly since even in the two cases above we already have two contrasting understanding of Sham statement, one of you have to then be wrong and fortunately I think most of the rest of us here are leaning towards sham speaking his opinion and not directly making a determination... So unfortunately trying to use Sham statement to prop up your argument would fail since only one person seems to be taking it in the context that you are using (and that is yourself)

Anyway can see how you are trying to squrim out of admitting that you thought the 10k deaths were purely civilian numbers (yet still now finally knowing there is yet for the numbers to be categorized) so can just leave it out there for memory but anyway at least in future u will be more careful and instead highlight it as total deaths so that is more accurate and good to work off on anyway (so mission accomplished)

I think only you are assuming this though

"And the figures are assumed to be mostly if not all are civilians." so u should be clear that it is just merely your assumption

Thank you for admitting that Shan's opinion is in the context which I had been saying here all along.

And even if it's Shan's opinion, as a government office holder, his opinion holds way more weight then yours and a few others here definitely.

So yes his opinion does upheld mine here.

And btw, from day one, i had NEVER stated explicitly that everyone of the 11000 or (12000 dead) now are all 100% civilians.

You tried to misquote the one line i typed "Israel did absolutely nothing to prevent or minimize civilian deaths. This is a fact now with over 10k deaths in Gaza." Please refer to below article.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wor...rike-bombing-civilian-children-deaths-3892096

Civilian deaths from Israel's air strikes in Gaza raise questions about proportional response, say experts​

Mass civilian deaths from Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip raise questions about the proportionality of Israel’s response, even as Israel says those strikes target Hamas’ underground infrastructure, military and security experts told CNA.

More than 9,000 people, mainly women and children, have been killed in Israel’s retaliatory bombings in Gaza, according to the territory’s Hamas-controlled health ministry.

Israel bombarded Gaza and tightened its blockade of the territory after a surprise attack by the militant group Hamas on Oct 7. Israel has said at least 1,400 Israelis were killed and more than 200 hostages taken in that attack.

“It’s not targeting civilians by definition ... but it’s indiscriminate in that the Israelis don’t care if civilians get killed or not. And they’re very clear about that,” Dr James M Dorsey, senior fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS), said of the air strikes.

https://www.care-international.org/...n-and-children-care-warns-un-security-council

"70% of those killed in Gaza are women and children", CARE warns the UN Security Council​

It is generally understood that most deaths of Israeli airstrikes are civilians. Therefore contributing to the total number of dead counted. So my statement is not wrong.

Also since you deemed the literal intepretation of Shan's statement is wrong, maybe you can post your interpretation of the context of his opinions.

"In the context of what is now happening in Gaza: Israel has a right of self-defence. But this right does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations. Collective punishment is also illegal. "


I wonder what mission you had accomplished when you all you did was to prove I was consistent with my posts here all along.


Cheers.

 

[YouWish]

Thank you for admitting that Shan's opinion is in the context which I had been saying here all along.

And even if it's Shan's opinion, as a government office holder, his opinion holds way more weight then yours and a few others here definitely.

So yes his opinion does upheld mine here.

And btw, from day one, i had NEVER stated explicitly that everyone of the 11000 or (12000 dead) now are all 100% civilians.

You tried to misquote the one line i typed "Israel did absolutely nothing to prevent or minimize civilian deaths. This is a fact now with over 10k deaths in Gaza." Please refer to below article.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/wor...rike-bombing-civilian-children-deaths-3892096

Civilian deaths from Israel's air strikes in Gaza raise questions about proportional response, say experts​

Mass civilian deaths from Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip raise questions about the proportionality of Israel’s response, even as Israel says those strikes target Hamas’ underground infrastructure, military and security experts told CNA.

More than 9,000 people, mainly women and children, have been killed in Israel’s retaliatory bombings in Gaza, according to the territory’s Hamas-controlled health ministry.

Israel bombarded Gaza and tightened its blockade of the territory after a surprise attack by the militant group Hamas on Oct 7. Israel has said at least 1,400 Israelis were killed and more than 200 hostages taken in that attack.

“It’s not targeting civilians by definition ... but it’s indiscriminate in that the Israelis don’t care if civilians get killed or not. And they’re very clear about that,” Dr James M Dorsey, senior fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS), said of the air strikes.

https://www.care-international.org/...n-and-children-care-warns-un-security-council

"70% of those killed in Gaza are women and children", CARE warns the UN Security Council​

It is generally understood that most deaths of Israeli airstrikes are civilians. Therefore contributing to the total number of dead counted. So my statement is not wrong.

Also since you deemed the literal intepretation of Shan's statement is wrong, maybe you can post your interpretation of the context of his opinions.

"In the context of what is now happening in Gaza: Israel has a right of self-defence. But this right does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations. Collective punishment is also illegal. "


I wonder what mission you had accomplished when you all you did was to prove I was consistent with my posts here all along.


Cheers.

Erm no one else here thinks sham opinion is what you want it to be.

I know that is what you hope, but it seems like no one else understands it like u

So as far as the rest of the us is concerned sham is in agreement with the rest of us

Just like how you think that your earlier statement of number of deaths that you thought is just civilian numbers now you have to walk it back

"It is generally understood that most deaths of Israeli airstrikes are civilians." again this is just an assertion and u already admitted that the numbers are not yet categorized.

So which part you want to backtrack to?

I mean in this whole context and development of Israel's war on terror, there is already a lot of backtracking for those who support Hamas

 

[eclipsemints]

Erm no one else here thinks sham opinion is what you want it to be.

I know that is what you hope, but it seems like no one else understands it like u

So as far as the rest of the us is concerned sham is in agreement with the rest of us

Just like how you think that your earlier statement of number of deaths that you thought is just civilian numbers now you have to walk it back

"It is generally understood that most deaths of Israeli airstrikes are civilians." again this is just an assertion and u already admitted that the numbers are not yet categorized.

So which part you want to backtrack to?

I mean in this whole context and development of Israel's war on terror, there is already a lot of backtracking for those who support Hamas

If you can't even give me your very own logical interpretation of what sham said then you can't say my literal interpretation of his stand on the matter is wrong isn't it?

Cheers.

 

[YouWish]

If you can't even give me your very own logical interpretation of what sham said then you can't say my literal interpretation of his stand on the matter is wrong isn't it?

Cheers.

I don't need to, cause tons of other people already gave it to you and it is more or less identical.

This is probably why you would misconstrue sham to actually be supporting you as compared to all the other folks that interpret it for you already...

In essence though it is possible to state you are wrong by stating how u are wrong, there is no need to give my own interpretation (although it is already same as the other folks anyway so you can scroll up to read, you have done that right?)

 

[YouWish]

Given pretty good airtime, hopefully can illustrate more clearly to all the other folks there the reality of who they are dealing with in Hamas

 

[eclipsemints]

I don't need to, cause tons of other people already gave it to you and it is more or less identical.

This is probably why you would misconstrue sham to actually be supporting you as compared to all the other folks that interpret it for you already...

In essence though it is possible to state you are wrong by stating how u are wrong, there is no need to give my own interpretation (although it is already same as the other folks anyway so you can scroll up to read, you have done that right?)

I totally disagree with what you claim here. If you want to refute me then use your own interpretation instead?

anyway additional information for you to ponder on.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/information-missteps-led-questions-israels-credibility-rcna125723

Information missteps have led to questions about Israel’s credibility​

https://theintercept.com/2023/11/21/al-shifa-hospital-hamas-israel/

AL-SHIFA HOSPITAL, HAMAS’S TUNNELS, AND ISRAELI PROPAGANDA​

cheers

 

[SkyShroud]

I cross check about the green house and according to NBNC News, it is true that donors donated to purchase these greenhouses to donate to the Authority to keep running their economy. I am unable to cross check the suicide bombing 3 sons.

 

[tiobanned]

ABOUT THE DEAL

1. 50 living Israelis will be released in beats of 12-13 each day during the 4 days of respite. It is possible that more nationalities will be released, but they will not be at the expense of the quota of 50 Israelis.

2. During the ceasefire, Hamas will try to locate more abductees, estimating that it can locate up to 80 women and children.

3. An additional day of respite will be given for every additional ten that are released.

4. Kidnappers not in Hamas hands will also be released, Hamas is responsible for bringing them.

5. Murderers will not be released from Israeli prison.

6. The population of Gaza will not be allowed to return to the north of the Gaza Strip.

7. Fuel will enter the Gaza Strip, but only on the days of the ceasefire.

8. Fighting will resume immediately upon the end of the truce.

9. Collecting intelligence from the air will be suspended for 6 hours each day.

10. All the security branches - the IDF, Shin Bet and Mossad - supported the deal. The War Cabinet unanimously supports.

11. Israel insisted for two weeks not to accept the original proposal of Hamas.

12. After the deal is approved by the government, 24 hours will be given to petitions against it, after which it will be launched.

 

[NTB2DO]

Read what Shan stated carefully.

He doesn’t actually say what you think/claim he said.

At no point does he state that Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing. He is talking in hypotheticals.

Indeed Shan didn't explicitly say Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing.. But did you notice he had added, "in the context of what is now happening in Gaza"?

So you sure he's just talking in "hypotheticals"?

https://www.straitstimes.com/singap...indiscriminate-killing-of-civilians-shanmugam

SINGAPORE - Israel has a right to self-defence, but this does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians or mass displacement of entire populations, said Home Affairs and Law Minister K. Shanmugam.

Collective punishment is also illegal, he said, in the context of what is now happening in Gaza.

Mr Shanmugam said in a Facebook post on Nov 18: “The scale of the tragedy in Gaza is immense. Thousands being killed. Devastation (on) this scale is very difficult to accept.”

 

[NTB2DO]

---

So as far as the rest of the us is concerned sham is in agreement with the rest of us

----

Your statement "sham (Shan) is in agreement with the rest of "us".. Can you elaborate, 'in agreement" on what exactly?

And your "us" refers to?

 

[coern]

yes, Shan is talking in hypotheticals.

'In the context of what is now happening in Gaza: Israel has a right of self-defence. But this right does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations. Collective punishment is also illegal.'​

why you link to ST instead of Shan's facebook post. aren't his own words more powerful that what ST tells you?



if he wasn't talking in hypotheticals, he would say something entirely different. Shan's current phrasing satisfies both the Hamas supporters in SG (so they won't stir, sibei troublesome lot), and will not offend the Israeli ambassador.

Indeed Shan didn't explicitly say Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing.. But did you notice he had added, "in the context of what is now happening in Gaza"?

So you sure he's just talking in "hypotheticals"?

https://www.straitstimes.com/singap...indiscriminate-killing-of-civilians-shanmugam

 

[NTB2DO]

yes, Shan is talking in hypotheticals.

'In the context of what is now happening in Gaza: Israel has a right of self-defence. But this right does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations. Collective punishment is also illegal.'​

why you link to ST instead of Shan's facebook post. aren't his own words more powerful that what ST tells you?



if he wasn't talking in hypotheticals, he would say something entirely different. Shan's current phrasing satisfies both the Hamas supporters in SG (so they won't stir, sibei troublesome lot), and will not offend the Israeli ambassador.

So then why did he even mention "does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations"?

Why on earth would a politician - esp. someone like Shan - use such "hypothetical' statement on another which SG has always enjoyed cordial relationship with?

 

[coern]

because there are allegations of such - so he is stating his & SG's stand on such allegations.

So then why did he even mention "does not extend to indiscriminate killing of civilians, or mass displacement of entire populations"?

Why on earth would a politician - esp. someone like Shan - use such "hypothetical' statement on another which SG has always enjoyed cordial relationship with?

do note that Shan is not *accusing* Israel of doing these.

can you tell the difference?

 

[NTB2DO]

because there are allegations of such - so he is stating his & SG's stand on such allegations.



do note that Shan is not *accusing* Israel of doing these.

can you tell the difference?

Of cos he wouldn't. Even if he thinks so, he'll never say it explicitly, don't you agree?

Also note that he didn't say he was addressing some "allegations", he said "in the context of what is happening in Gaza."

 

[enigmastar]

Of cos he wouldn't. Even if he thinks so, he'll never say it explicitly, don't you agree?

I don't know why u and the other guy keep arguing over a clear statement. He did not say Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing. Full stop. We are not him, how are we able to guess what is he thinking?

 

[NTB2DO]

I don't know why u and the other guy keep arguing over a clear statement. He did not say Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing. Full stop. We are not him, how are we able to guess what is he thinking?

Did I say that he said Israel has committed acts of indiscriminate killing?

I already said that as a politician, he would never make such an explicit statement, regardless of how he thinks.

But his use of "in the context of what is happening in Gaza" is telling.