Do Cables MAtter and other related chat

hmsweethm

Supremacy Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2001
Messages
7,145
Reaction score
81
Valid to who? You? Maybe I dunno your job or designation. But even if u were some authority on any subject, it is just hurtful and unacceptably intolerant to tell an individual who believes something else that he is wrong and repeatedly do so. I am, in truth, more likely to agree with wwenze's or even your scientific views than Amon's. But what I do not agree with is your intolerance of other people's beliefs. A public place needs more tolerance. Same for the whole country. We need a place where people of all walks, or the public, are safe from disrespect and abuse. I said before liao. Science is great. Things have changed. Yes. But are things conclusive yet? No. It is still advancing. Until the science becomes public knowledge like 1+1=2 is, we need to allow people to share their views freely without getting attacked. They started the thread. So just leave it alone if u dont agree with it. My suggestion for a science section or thread would solve this problem. No one unqualified would dare to comment in that thread. Isn't that your objective, to educate? So please start your science thread and leave the nice uncles alone.
Ya. Maybe we can have that kind of discussion.
SG already so tiny, everything we always get info from those audiophiles in the USA.
Yet we have all the hidden dragons inside here.
Also SG money not easy earn.
It will be good if combine the knowledge or use it further.
Not speaking on behalf of Amon or Wwenze or Pete. If Amon can get the parts and wwenze can test it,
then we have our own ASR. Probably a better one than the States.(At first i Google ASR means what... arithmetric shift right, automatic speech recognition. Later then realise it’s Audio Science Review).
 

Clearnfc

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
107
Challenging Experts to Make 3D Measurements of Amp/Speakers even cables...

OK, since you all are the experts. Throw out a challenge to you. Since you all say everything can be quantified and measured. Yes, can measure. But not like what you have done and not like ASR. I wanted to do this for a long time, but never had the equipment and knowledge to do it. But you are the experts, you can.

Eg. for frequency response.... What ASR did is just tell you amplitude vs frequency. Doesn't have time factored inside.... Music is varying amplitude + frequency over time. Time is the MOST important factor which is omitted by ASR tests.

A 3D graph is needed to plot these 3 axis. When you factor in time, it gets alot more complex. Below are some points to consider.

- rise and fall of amplitude at certain frequencies over time. Maybe this is what they meant by fast and slow.
- variations of the peaks/valley. I guess sharper peaks and valley could suggest better transients. Also perhaps better imaging?
- rounded peaks and valley for vocals means smoother voice?? Not so detailed?
- accuracy, do the frequencies vary as it should or they are off?

This is also where I believe that you will be able to get the answer you seek regarding cables. If they make no difference, then the 3D map will be the same. Lastly, you need to do this with various music. Orchestra music will be tough on equipment because of the number of instruments playing. Jazz will be slow but not necessary easier to play. the rock music etc....
 

LiLAsN

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
1,989
Reaction score
3
Ya. Maybe we can have that kind of discussion.
SG already so tiny, everything we always get info from those audiophiles in the USA.
Yet we have all the hidden dragons inside here.
Also SG money not easy earn.
It will be good if combine the knowledge or use it further.
Not speaking on behalf of Amon or Wwenze or Pete. If Amon can get the parts and wwenze can test it,
then we have our own ASR. Probably a better one than the States.(At first i Google ASR means what... arithmetric shift right, automatic speech recognition. Later then realise it’s Audio Science Review).

Spot on. Amon has 1 part of the puzzle; The products that he can freely bring home to test. If we have the other to marry measurements and testing with all kinds of products, we can have our very own Audio Science Review team here where we test the not so well known parts of audio. The interconnects, power plugs and so on. Their income can easily come from Consultation Services to get their products tested and even to an ordinary folk who wants to see they were not duped by some Carouhell seller saying their cable is a 12AWG cable but then turns out to be 18AWG cables. It happens.
Thus why when we have unbiased and honest local talent that do these measurements for us, all of us will not be throwing money into the sea for no reason.

When we start measuring things, we start to root out the thorn in our sides. Those actual snake oil sellers hiding in our midst pretending their knock off products are as high end as actual high end products. We saw it with speakers in Audio Science Review where a lot of those speakers way up there in terms of price points losing out to cheaper products.
But the answer is simple. Audio technology hasn't changed over the years. Similar to cars. Most cars still use combustion technology. There's only so much improvement that you can do to it. (Thus why the improvements to speakers will start trickling down the price range to mid and budget speakers over time.) Same thing for speakers. You have a powerful magnet moving air back and forth quickly. We use many different types of objects such as woven fabric to metal to even papers for tweeters in order to find the ones that help produce a stable sound that they can be proud of selling to consumers.
Yes, like cars, there are exceptions. Battery powered cars and similar for audio, we have those that create speakers throwing away the entire very old loudhorn technology that most speakers are still using today. I am talking about Planar Magnetic speakers for headphones and Magneplanar Speakers for Home Theatre. These are based on our newer understanding of how we can create air movements with just a thin piece of metal ribbons stuck between 2 magnetic panels.
Magneplanars are actually way cheaper than you think and they produce sound realistically because they are not confined to a wooden box cabinet.
But just because I want to hear realistic sounding audio so much, doesn't mean I will set out to buy one quickly and blindly too. I saw that the frequency readings wasn't as neutral. So to an average consumer like us, we will notice a lot of details may end up being hidden because the volume across the entire frequency range is inconsistent. Thus why I emphasize measurements matter a LOT. You don't have to be the one to do the measurements of course. We can always refer to other people who have done these measurements professionally for us.

But I disgress. A lot of the audio enthusiasts has fallen for the illusion that measurements don't matter from these actual snake oil manufacturers and sellers. They want you to be ignorant. Because your ignorance leads to the lack of rationality to make informed buying decisions. So you are left with who do you trust. Are these salesman telling you the truth? You don't know. You can't verify anything and you end up making careless and ignorant buying decisions on what you can actually measure other than the most important aspect of a speaker. The actual speakers. You see where these snake oil sellers has managed to trick us average consumers by giving lots of false claims that have never been peer reviewed and verified by anyone? imagine the breakthrough such as solving the skin effect problems in cable. It would have definitely been peer reviewed and published and end up in engineering textbooks by now. So they beautify their speaker cabinets. Put very gorgeous weavings on the woofers and colour them with attractive colours and charge them for a high price and voila; Your perception of audio now becomes it is not the measurements of the actual speaker drivers that matter, but how stunningly gorgeous looking the speakers are along with how high the price is. When in actuality, what we should have been looking at is whether those speakers are capable of producing audio from the 20Hz - 20kHz range that our human ears can actually hear. That is the entire purpose of the speakers in the first place. That is the biggest deception these snake oil sellers has done to the audio market industry. Because you are right. 20, 40, 60 years ago, there were no flat response microphones that an average consumer can just buy off the shelves. So it was only reserved to those working in the actual professional audio industry that had the money and technical know-how to use these equipments. How do you think THX, Dolby, DTS do their measurements for the past 50+ years? Using lab rats and old uncles to experiment on? Obvious no. They use microphone measurements to achieve this.

So why is it that out of nowhere, consumer market is not allowed to test the audio products that they buy? It is to blind you from the truth. So even crappy bad speakers and other audio components can slip through and pose themselves as a HiFi audio product themselves and price their products at insane prices and use words from actual textbooks that are taken out of context like the Skin Effect stuffs to justify their high prices like they have solved something that NASA themselves with all their engineering expertise couldn't.
If we view Audio as religion, then it is like having some bad apples with bad intentions taking a passage out of the bible out of context to justify that this is why the people must rebel against others. Ala ISIS and KKK and so forth.

I can tell you now. My intentions to coming into some conversations is to remind what really matters in audio. I got a chance to test my new cables from my own Home Theatre Setup (HTS) and therefore, I share with you guys the improvements or lack-thereof that I got out of the upgrade.
Heck, our very own forum moderator, Pete, recommended REW too. It takes all the guesswork out of your audio journey and gives you the raw information laid out nicely for you to see what you need improvement on.
But to say microphones and measurements are bad? Be careful. Because you have just ended up unknowingly becoming the loudspeakers for these snake oil sellers.
Last time, we had to prevent our old relatives from falling victim to those fake magic rock sellers that were coming door-to-door. Yet here we are now, in the audio market where the snake oil sellers thrive on the lack of information because there was never any way to measure audio just a few years back for us average folks (not the true professional audio scene). But now that they are, we are experiencing the same push-back with the old timers here who had fallen victim to the real snake oil sellers that have grabbed the Consumer Audio market. Thus why their reluctance to accept change. They have been indoctrinated by these false prophets (snake oil sellers) in the consumer audio world for years and years. It's very hard to change that mindset.

The question now is, will you give power to these snake oil sellers who ask you to be clueless and just accept their words at face value or will you choose to look at actual data where we can easily rate those speakers and if you have any doubt, hey, the information is all there. So you can choose any speakers in those graphs in terms of price to performance and listen to those 3 speakers yourself and see if it matches what the raw stats say about those speakers at those different price points. That is the easiest way for you to debunk or prove the mindset that price determines what makes a great sounding speaker.
Then I recommend you to take a look at the chart, choose a speaker like an Elac Debut Reference (US$600 with 7.76 score) and compare it to the more expensive KEF LS50 Passive (US$1500 with 6.69 score) that objectively, has shown to be worst performing than the Elacs and then you can either prove or disprove that objective tests are a great guiding scale for consumers.
I'm sure at first glance, the beautiful looking LS50 with a very high price and a very well known brand name would definitely sound better. But unfortunately and objectively, it is a No.
So congrats. Because of your subjective "wisdom", you have just screwed many other people into believing the LS50 are the definition of what a HiFi audio is. And now, they too will come into the forums and bash any other speakers and say that the KEF LS50s are the best. This is a result of being subjective and only think that price, looks and the brand is what makes a speaker great and not the actual stats.
That is why I like to come and remind people from time to time of what really matters. Price, looks and brand name is not what defines a speaker. It is the drivers + speakers themselves. And then the looks, the price and brand are secondary. Not the other way round. If you believe in the other way round, you are nothing more than a jewelry salesman coming into another industry to try to poison people's perceptions of what makes audio great and making people as simple minded as possible and only think that the price, brand and looks are what makes up a speaker and how great they sound.
I don't want that to happen to any of us, thus, my reason for intervention. Take it as you will. I have no ill intentions but I definitely can't bring myself to lie to someone in their face and fool people into believing in things that they can barely even hear and especially if a very sensitive microphone can't hear it too.

Here's the updated picture as of July 15 2020 on the graph of all the speakers tested with a comparison of price budget to its performance. If you have the money, by all means you can try to pick any 2 and try them out (after you read the extensive reviews for both of those speakers too) and you can go ahead and debunk it or know that it actually is comparable thus making it easier for you to make your well informed decisions purchases based on your budget. PS, this is the graph with dedicated subwoofers.

QNl4He3.png
 
Last edited:

Amon86

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,955
Reaction score
0
here bro before i go after this day....give you some ammo

touch on cables and measurements


 

Clearnfc

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
107

lxXXxl

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
0
OK, since you all are the experts. Throw out a challenge to you. Since you all say everything can be quantified and measured. Yes, can measure. But not like what you have done and not like ASR. I wanted to do this for a long time, but never had the equipment and knowledge to do it. But you are the experts, you can.

Eg. for frequency response.... What ASR did is just tell you amplitude vs frequency. Doesn't have time factored inside.... Music is varying amplitude + frequency over time. Time is the MOST important factor which is omitted by ASR tests.

...

People trying to clarify some basic physics laws already you say they trying to act as experts. If I say a person fall from 20 storey building almost certainly body cannot take it will die, then I am medical expert ah.... :s13:

Read some of your posts, you quite expert also lei.

And don't understand what you mean. So you're saying some audio cables can make air molecules store more energy then chut more power like half a second later?
 

lxXXxl

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
0
Yes, this is something we need.

I believe we can get a reference map from the wav file itself.

But using a microphone to record sound wont be easy. Even microphone itself has coloration and sensitivity etc...

That's why each measuring mic have their own calibration file
 

lxXXxl

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
0

Clearnfc

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
107
People trying to clarify some basic physics laws already you say they trying to act as experts. If I say a person fall from 20 storey building almost certainly body cannot take it will die, then I am medical expert ah.... :s13:

Read some of your posts, you quite expert also lei.

And don't understand what you mean. So you're saying some audio cables can make air molecules store more energy then chut more power like half a second later?

Its not the store more energy. Its affect the waves mainly due to 3 factors, inductance, capacitance and resistance.

Eg, capacitance tends to smooth out the sound, it means the peaks will be more rounded, not so sharp. then minor variations well be less pronounced. Resistance is attenuation.

But the LCR of cable is also affected by frequency. They are not linear throughout the entire frequency range.

Manufacturers try different ways to change properties of their cables. Eg, nordost . Their flat cables. Its just like litz wire. But instead of bundle up together, they separate them out. A simple amplitude over frequency graph is unlikely to shown difference. But when plotted over time? The slope of a rise in amplitude may be different? Peak may be different.

I am also curious, want to quantify all these just like you. I also believe all the characteristics of sound can be explained. But its very difficult to perform. Need sound proof room with those spike foam to prevent reflection etc. Then highly sensitive equipment to capture all these minute variations. Even down to cables (eg. shielding) because environment factors may alter the results. Even ground vibration also plays a part.

And then equipment characteristics also changes with temperature. I think wennze talk about more bass with climate change. BJT, capacitors, resistors etc.. all changes with temp. Thats why amps sounds louder and usually better when warmed up. So, how do you ensure the experiment is repeatable? Minise alll other variants?

Lastly, microphone are just like speakers, perfect microphone doesn't exist. How well can it pick up the signals? Eg, when something of highly varying amplitude and frequency? Is it able to capture it well? Many things to consider.
 

lxXXxl

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
0
Its not the store more energy. Its affect the waves mainly due to 3 factors, inductance, capacitance and resistance.

Eg, capacitance tends to smooth out the sound, it means the peaks will be more rounded, not so sharp. then minor variations well be less pronounced. Resistance is attenuation.

But the LCR of cable is also affected by frequency. They are not linear throughout the entire frequency range.

Yes, these properties all sound very important. But eventually the electrical signals move the speaker voice coil vibrate the air and transmit sound to your ears. No air = no sound. All the electrical properties in the world don't mean a thing if the sound energy captured by the microphone look the same.

Since the claim is different cables have 'clear' sonic differences, actually capturing these differences first is more important. If these sonic differences are captured and can actually be heard by multiple people's ears, we can then talk about things like electrical variables.


Manufacturers try different ways to change properties of their cables. Eg, nordost . Their flat cables. Its just like litz wire. But instead of bundle up together, they separate them out. A simple amplitude over frequency graph is unlikely to shown difference. But when plotted over time? The slope of a rise in amplitude may be different? Peak may be different.

First, you do agree that in order for human to hear a song, that song has to be between 20-20kHz right?

Pink / white noise is sound generated across all the audible frequencies, and frequently used for audio testing.
A rise in amplitude over time....it means the song is getting louder and louder with a particular cable?
Or you mean sometimes 100Hz sounds normal, then 0.5s later, 100Hz sounds much louder?


I am also curious, want to quantify all these just like you. I also believe all the characteristics of sound can be explained. But its very difficult to perform. Need sound proof room with those spike foam to prevent reflection etc. Then highly sensitive equipment to capture all these minute variations. Even down to cables (eg. shielding) because environment factors may alter the results. Even ground vibration also plays a part.

And then equipment characteristics also changes with temperature. I think wennze talk about more bass with climate change. BJT, capacitors, resistors etc.. all changes with temp. Thats why amps sounds louder and usually better when warmed up. So, how do you ensure the experiment is repeatable? Minise alll other variants?

Sure, even rotation of Earth can play a part. Or like the butterfly effect. Or say I may wake up one day and I see my blanket on the floor and that variable might mean I going to have accident (touch wood) later, so I decide not to get up.

There are variables that have a real impact and variables that don't. However, audio companies like to tell us a lot of variables matter, that just don't make sense.

Oh and the ASR example that wwenze cited? Maybe you'll have to show me how to achieve winter in SG first? Note that it's also documented in the Klippel measurement system. But trying to extrapolate that specific example to every other component.... is like saying because some humans are thieves, now I have to worry about whether my parents are going to be thieves too?? There are some predictions and estimations that are reasonable, and some that are unrealistic and totally unrelated.


Lastly, microphone are just like speakers, perfect microphone doesn't exist. How well can it pick up the signals? Eg, when something of highly varying amplitude and frequency? Is it able to capture it well? Many things to consider.

So....the perfect ear doesn't exist too, so humans should not hear anything? Or since the perfect mic or perfect room don't exist, recording companies or singers should not make any recordings anymore?

While there are definitely inadequacies in the testing equipment and conditions, when they are known, most of the time they can be compensated for, so that the final data is still useful for proper analysis.
 
Last edited:

Clearnfc

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
107
So u saying just spend more? ;)

Not necessary. But key is getting the sound you like.

Sound is not about what is on the CD, must be exactly the same.... If you listen everything neutral (everything exactly like CD), I can tell you cannot tahan for long. Pple usually like it with a bit of warmth. Vocal a bit more pronounce.

Then specs... is nothing everything. ASR talk so much about low THD. Me like huh?? If low THD is the key, pple would have thrown away their tube amps long ago.... Then vinyl also throw away already.

Me listen to LS35A on tube amp... the feeling is like...wow...... magical. The vocal is just so good..... but tube amp low power and high THD. So is it inferior??
 

benedium

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
1,776
Reaction score
6
Yah but the audio science people say, and I kinda believe them, that as long as speaker is neutral u can EQ to make it sound like any speaker's sound signature.
 

benedium

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
1,776
Reaction score
6
Hopefully one day manufacturers can make a neutral speaker and amp combo that let's u replicate the sound signatures of all iconic speakers in history.
 

Clearnfc

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
7,163
Reaction score
107
Yes, these properties all sound very important. But eventually the electrical signals move the speaker voice coil vibrate the air and transmit sound to your ears. No air = no sound. All the electrical properties in the world don't mean a thing if the sound energy captured by the microphone look the same.

Since the claim is different cables have 'clear' sonic differences, actually capturing these differences first is more important. If these sonic differences are captured and can actually be heard by multiple people's ears, we can then talk about things like electrical variables.




First, you do agree that in order for human to hear a song, that song has to be between 20-20kHz right?

Pink / white noise is sound generated across all the audible frequencies, and frequently used for audio testing.
A rise in amplitude over time....it means the song is getting louder and louder with a particular cable?
Or you mean sometimes 100Hz sounds normal, then 0.5s later, 100Hz sounds much louder?




Sure, even rotation of Earth can play a part. Or like the butterfly effect. Or say I may wake up one day and I see my blanket on the floor and that variable might mean I going to have accident (touch wood) later, so I decide not to get up.

There are variables that have a real impact and variables that don't. However, audio companies like to tell us a lot of variables matter, that just don't make sense.




So....the perfect ear doesn't exist too, so humans should not hear anything? Or since the perfect mic or perfect room don't exist, recording companies or singers should not make any recordings anymore?

While there are definitely inadequacies in the testing equipment and conditions, when they are known, most of the time they can be compensated for, so that the final data is still useful for proper analysis.

Yes, so perhaps you can perform the experiment. Then tell us if there is a difference. I already mentioned why time is the key to the experiment and why frequency sweep alone doesn't say anything.

For equipment etc, we can improve later. But first, we need a 3D map of the sound wave playing certain music. After that, try to relate the pattern to characteristic of the sound. Something like a baseline.
 

benedium

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
1,776
Reaction score
6
I think the lesson we should learn here is to not let some ill mannered fan of audio science spoil the reputation of audio science in general and blind us to its valuable ideas.
 

lxXXxl

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
0
Yes, so perhaps you can perform the experiment. Then tell us if there is a difference. I already mentioned why time is the key to the experiment and why frequency sweep alone doesn't say anything.

For equipment etc, we can improve later. But first, we need a 3D map of the sound wave playing certain music. After that, try to relate the pattern to characteristic of the sound. Something like a baseline.

Anyone want to loan me some $XXX - $XXXX level of cables?
 
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Terms of Service for more information.
Top