Do Cables MAtter and other related chat

hmsweethm

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I can chip in a $30 ..so total $80 now :)

That’s great.
The purchased set i would say can be rotated around people in HWZ home audio who knows the science to fully utilise it. I’m not an audio guy. I have no qualms on whoever owns/holds the set & utilise it.
So Long it’s good for local audio community.

Probably Pete or someone can set the rules once the item is ordered.
BTW, not sure if any gurus wish to take this ASR up. Don’t wanna make any decisions on behalf of them.
 
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lxXXxl

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Remember the youtube video about the cable test?? Very long and very short cable one?? The simple act of coiling up the cables make a difference (comments below also mentioned it) Because the cables become an air core inductor when its coiled up.

Yup fantastic video, and it clearly also shows that at short cable lengths, losses are neligible.

The earlier claims are that very expensive cables are very different sonically. So the point is to actually test different brands of 'expensive' cables to see whether someone hears the difference AND measurements got show the difference, not whether different lengths got difference.

And since I'm not going to get $XXXX cables anytime soon, nor do I have $XXXX audio systems, so I can't really test.
 

wwenze

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So it costs $300 because it has 3D and color at the same time?

Wfz8EYeJZ0ZuufqBC9hNtzdmVfNXJ6ra0usjLZ0fUFUvnV0zDLyjou07DKzHfZXFYueR67vqZcu1Yl8V-nbN



I would honestly be surprised there aren't alternatives with color

sndpeek6.jpg
 

wwenze

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Yup fantastic video, and it clearly also shows that at short cable lengths, losses are neligible.

The earlier claims are that very expensive cables are very different sonically. So the point is to actually test different brands of 'expensive' cables to see whether someone hears the difference AND measurements got show the difference, not whether different lengths got difference.

And since I'm not going to get $XXXX cables anytime soon, nor do I have $XXXX audio systems, so I can't really test.

In hypothesis testing, it is important to check if you can detect a known result. Sometimes the concept got problem, sometimes the procedure got problem, sometimes the test equipment got program.

That's why people test coat hanger first. Subjective sound quality value -1000. If we can't even detect that, we won't have confidence trying to detect a +2
 

Clearnfc

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Don't waste time with fake audio science people lah Clearnfc. U will learn absolutely nothing from him. He is no wwenze. So stop treating him like he represents audio science. It will be misleading for other noobs.

HaHa, me always remember this meme. Someone posted in EDMW before. So, just take it easy. Did you lose money because of what they posted?? Hifi suddenly spoil?? Can posts here make you kena dengue or covid? No right?

Of course, if the person who posted online is your boss, then different story...

3c9.jpg
 

Clearnfc

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Uh... ok sure why not?

haha, my point is don't take it too seriously.

You let pple listen on edifier speaker, then listen on your ML + focal Utopia speakers (just say only). You feel your ML hifi is sibeh tokkong....pple tell you no difference leh.... like that lor...

Anyway, ok enough.... me go back to EDMW... you can enjoy......If I free, maybe I go join ASR and post...
 

hmsweethm

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Preout output usually by RCA or XLR.

Not sure if you're trolling but theoretically power amps actually sound better than integrated because it doesn't have to share power with any other components.

These days integrated amp just means Preamp+Poweramp, so your integrated actually already has a power amp built-in. What you're saying is equivalent to a laptop having better processing capability than a desktop just because the laptop has a monitor and keyboard built-in, got a lot more buttons to press so much better wow.

Also, not all integrated amps have a DAC, but even when they do it may not be implemented as well as an external DAC, because the DAC has to share the same circuit board and transformer as the amp, more noise can come through, and it all depends on how well designed it is and the build quality.
I only troll in Edmw.
Here talk about audio is knowledge stuff, no pt to troll.

Trying to plan Swee Swee for my theatre room upgrade after my house Reno.
I like to keep the sub systems in the theatre/music as simple as possible, but with good enough sound.
I know as simple as possible would be an AVR.
So I’ll probably get a model with pre-out. Then listen for a while, then get either an integrated/power amp.
Whether to have in built DAC or not, need to go down and listen at the shop.
I always read from online reviews but also prefer to hear it from consumers like us who had gone thru the experience and share his/her thoughts.
Then from there, i can make a better judgement.
 
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Clearnfc

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Bttom line: Cables to Affect Sound to a certain extend (definite proof provided)....

Well, pretty much once and for all. Evidence is right in the links provided by you folks here, you folks trust alot so it cannot be fake stuff. The conclusion is that cables do affect sound. But things like skin effect doesn't matter. Thickness of cable matters. Resistance and inductance matter. Purity of copper matters. With this, I rest my case...


A cable measurement thread right on ASR:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/

Amirm measured and mentioned these:

Why test 12 gauge (AWG) wire? 12 AWG speaker wire is a “safe bet” from performance point of view because anything thinner may interact with the low impedance of your speakers and cause the frequency response to vary beyond threshold of hearing (-0.5 dB). That change can “color” the sound.

Fry’s and BestBuy wires must be aluminum cored to have such high resistance. They are not thin enough for the difference to be due to that. I would certainly avoid using both in any high fidelity application.

His views are that wires thinner than 12awg may cause colouration of the sound. Then he will avoid Fry's and BestBuy wires.


https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-wire-gauge

It talks about skin effect but points out that its not important. Tested and shows results. But, proceed to say that

The DC resistance and inductance of the cable are far more important factors as can be seen in our Speaker Cable Face Off and Cross Coax vs Zip Cord articles where we modeled lumped element parameters (R,L,C) of speaker cables..

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/128187938-post50.html

Post by LiLAsN (I guess he is reputable in here). He said it made a big difference to him after he switch to WE (should be western electric) cables.

He also said Thus why when I went to a 9AWG WE cable (2m) the audio seem to be able to flow easily without much resistance especially in the high frequencies thanks to the pure copper cabling
 

lxXXxl

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Yes that link has been shared earlier.

No one ever claimed there's no electrical difference between speaker cables. It is measurable.

The claim we're trying to ask people to prove is in a home setting, with short lengths of ultra expensive, supposedly well made speaker cables, they can 'clearly' hear differences. If their ears can hear differences, then the mic surely can measure it.

The moment you talk about electrical and not audio differences, already off topic...

The test scenario is:
One audio system, 2 or more pairs of speaker cables. User says hear tighter bass with speaker cable B.

So measure cable A with mic, swap out with cable B and measure again.

Then show captured data. Can see from data there's tighter bass in B?
 
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wwenze

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You don't even need microphone... just hook up your soundcard at the speaker terminals and measure. Even a 0.1dB difference at 20kHz counts as a detection...

BTW you probably would get a 0.1dB difference or that kind of range by comparing the extreme offerings

At which point it becomes can your own ears tell the difference

And then realize why people measure instead of listen when you fail the ABX testing. Enjoy the awkward silence that follows.
 

lxXXxl

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Btw, even if at the end of the test, user insists he can hear the difference, no one can really say he's wrong, because no one else has his ears.

But the captured data will help to narrow down all the guessing. Another person can look at the data and decides it's not worth his time and money. Yet another person may decide the cables' looks matches his audio system. Like Porsche car need to match Porsche wheels and not monster truck wheels...

But from a cable seller pov, I can understand their reluctance...
 

benedium

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Or in humans some variant of schizophrenia and hallucination heheh
 

LiLAsN

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Post by LiLAsN (I guess he is reputable in here). He said it made a big difference to him after he switch to WE (should be western electric) cables.

He also said Thus why when I went to a 9AWG WE cable (2m) the audio seem to be able to flow easily without much resistance especially in the high frequencies thanks to the pure copper cabling

I gave an explanation as to why I notice the highs were more pronounced. Like ear fatiguing type of pronounced while the mids and the bass become very muddy. And the soundstage was so huge. Things were not where they were supposed to be kind of huge (distorted soundstage).

It was all explained in a video I posted from the Dirac interview. Where they mentioned how going out of phase (due to less resistance I presume and my cables having mismatch lengths. So the correction that Dirac has done was no longer applicable to the new speaker cables.)

For example, let's pretend my old speaker cables, together with the resistance resulted in a 3ms delay. Dirac comes in and corrects the speaker delays so that by the time all the audio meets up at the first microphone position, your main listening seat, all the sound will come at the same time. So Dirac software makes some audio come out faster on some speakers and slower on the others and by the time the sounds all reach that listening seat, they are all now at 0ms. No delays between each speaker.

Now, I've replaced my speaker cables. But due to less resistance, the signal can reach the speakers at just a 1ms delay. But my Dirac still employs the same amount of phase correction (timing delay) based on my old cables. The result is now the front speakers are playing audio at a -2ms faster than my surround speakers. The result of having the other speakers too having different delays results in what I experienced. The muddy bass and mids and very pronounced highs as well as causing the sound stage to either increase or decrease. In my case, it was increase.

It explained why I got that pronounced highs. And it wasn't because some frequency signals were able to be transferred, my measurement graph that I showed the before and after proved that there's not much change to the frequency. In the end, it was because of the phase difference (timing distortion). As seen here.

IAr9lZK.png


You can read more to my finding that explained what I heard here in the full post.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/128454940-post24.html


Btw, now that many people understand how different cables with different level of resistance that leads to the timing for each speaker starting to play the audio defers from every cable, it explains a lot of why people say how cables can make the sound feel more open or that the highs were more pronounced or that the soundstage has increased.

In fact, the funniest part is when you watch this latest SpareChange video (linked below). They both talk exactly all the points that I mentioned that the gauge and the resulting resistance causes delays in when the audio plays and without any sort of Room Correction to properly sync the timing of all the speakers, this is the result. Their findings changing from 1 cable to another is the same as mine. But what they don't know is that the frequency measurement should remain the same. But it was the phase difference (timing distortion) between each speaker that caused the soundstage to increase or decrease and therefore making the mids and bass muddier and the highs still maintaining their clarity under the more muddy bass resulting in the more "pronounced highs" that people experience with a change of cables.

It is really funny to watch once you understand the science of what is causing this don't you think? :s13:
Not because the cables bring more frequency information that was 'missing' but because the length and resistance of each individual cable (even a simple difference in length of the cables between the cable meant for the right speaker and the other for the left speaker or the slight different in resistance on the right and left speaker cables) can cause the speakers to go out of phase, thus altering the soundstage. :s13:

Here. Have a look at the video. Exactly what I had experienced and exactly what was explained in the Dirac interview powerpoint slide. :s13:

The full Dirac interview.


Here's the cable comparison video that will give you a laugh as they think that the cables made any sonic difference or frequency changes to the audio when it was actually just a phase difference (timing distortion) that is changing their soundstage and muddying their mids and bass that the highs became clearer. :s13:



And as mentioned, my frequency chart of before and after. And my before once was done weeks before the 'after' chart as this was when I was doing my room correction. So they are weeks apart but ultimately, frequency wise, sound wise, sonically wise, they sound the same on paper. But phase wise, it resulted in us hearing this change in soundstage and having certain frequencies that are not easily 'fazed' (pun intended) like the high frequency sounds thus why they got more pronounced while their mids and low frequencies became muffled in all these timing distortions.
PLOFNrd.png
 
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