Do Cables MAtter and other related chat

petetherock

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To TS, I've merged your various cable related chat since it's still encircling the same areas.
A reminder to all:
Let's stick to tech talk and avoid personal attacks or trolling.

Thanks
 

Clearnfc

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To TS, I've merged your various cable related chat since it's still encircling the same areas.
A reminder to all:
Let's stick to tech talk and avoid personal attacks or trolling.

Thanks

Thanks!! I am glad things are getting more constructive now.
 

Clearnfc

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I gave an explanation as to why I notice the highs were more pronounced. Like ear fatiguing type of pronounced while the mids and the bass become very muddy. And the soundstage was so huge. Things were not where they were supposed to be kind of huge (distorted soundstage).

It was all explained in a video I posted from the Dirac interview. Where they mentioned how going out of phase (due to less resistance I presume and my cables having mismatch lengths. So the correction that Dirac has done was no longer applicable to the new speaker cables.)

For example, let's pretend my old speaker cables, together with the resistance resulted in a 3ms delay. Dirac comes in and corrects the speaker delays so that by the time all the audio meets up at the first microphone position, your main listening seat, all the sound will come at the same time. So Dirac software makes some audio come out faster on some speakers and slower on the others and by the time the sounds all reach that listening seat, they are all now at 0ms. No delays between each speaker.

Now, I've replaced my speaker cables. But due to less resistance, the signal can reach the speakers at just a 1ms delay. But my Dirac still employs the same amount of phase correction (timing delay) based on my old cables. The result is now the front speakers are playing audio at a -2ms faster than my surround speakers. The result of having the other speakers too having different delays results in what I experienced. The muddy bass and mids and very pronounced highs as well as causing the sound stage to either increase or decrease. In my case, it was increase.

It explained why I got that pronounced highs. And it wasn't because some frequency signals were able to be transferred, my measurement graph that I showed the before and after proved that there's not much change to the frequency. In the end, it was because of the phase difference (timing distortion). As seen here.

IAr9lZK.png


You can read more to my finding that explained what I heard here in the full post.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/128454940-post24.html


Btw, now that many people understand how different cables with different level of resistance that leads to the timing for each speaker starting to play the audio defers from every cable, it explains a lot of why people say how cables can make the sound feel more open or that the highs were more pronounced or that the soundstage has increased.

In fact, the funniest part is when you watch this latest video. They both talk exactly all the points that I mentioned that the gauge and the resulting resistance causes delays in when the audio plays and without any sort of Room Correction to properly sync the timing of all the speakers, this is the result. Their findings changing from 1 cable to another is the same as mine. But what they don't know is that the frequency measurement should remain the same. But it was the phase difference (timing distortion) between each speaker that caused the soundstage to increase or decrease and therefore making the mids and bass muddier and the highs still maintaining their clarity under the more muddy bass resulting in the more "pronounced highs" that people experience with a change of cables.

It is really funny to watch once you understand the science of what is causing this don't you think? :s13:
Not because the cables bring more frequency information that was 'missing' but because the length and resistance of each individual cable (even a simple difference in length of the cables between the cable meant for the right and the other for the left or the slight different in resistance on the right and left) can cause the speakers to go out of phase, thus altering the soundstage. :s13:

Here. Have a look at the video. Exactly what I had experienced and exactly what was explained in the Dirac interview powerpoint slide. :s13:

The full Dirac interview.


Here's the cable comparison video that will give you a laugh as they think that the cables made any sonic difference or frequency changes to the audio when it was actually just a phase difference (timing distortion) that is changing their soundstage and muddying their mids and bass that the highs became clearer. :s13:



And as mentioned, my frequency chart of before and after. And my before once was done weeks before the 'after' chart as this was when I was doing my room correction. So they are weeks apart but ultimately, frequency wise, sound wise, sonically wise, they sound the same on paper. But phase wise, it resulted in us hearing this change in soundstage and having certain frequencies that are not easily 'fazed' (pun intended) like the high frequency sounds thus why they got more pronounced while their mids and low frequencies became muffled in all these timing distortions.
PLOFNrd.png

Oh phase difference!! I didnt know that. Good one!! Learn something new today. WE 9awg cables looks good...

I would say the only downside with such thick cables would be the weight and they are extremely hard to use!! I ever use AFA cables before. Its very thick and heavy. The speaker posts on my amp came off!! Feel like trying it out.
 

hmsweethm

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@LiLAsN, your that graph showing Western electric is similar to Audyssey multieq Software?
I thinking of going to SLT and hoot 1 pair of cables to replace for my front spk & run the software to see see.
Just out of curiosity and got spare cash.
 

mypillowtalks

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Anyone here calculate how much power is lost/voltage drop through the speaker cables? So to size them appropriately?

For my work in real life, i often need to size power cables and calculate voltage drop and short circuit capacity for electrical installation (so to comply to code of practice).

But i am not sure what should be taken into account if i were to calculate for speaker and amplifier.

Im thinking whether the drop in voltage due to small cable size between amp and speaker will have an impact or not.

In the past, i estimate the power sent to my speaker by measuring the voltage at the speaker terminal, then square the value and divide by the nominal resistance. Then i set the limiter on my processor to limit power. But the impedance of speaker coil varies with frequency.
Maybe when im free i think about this.

Just some thinking.

Sent from Your Favourite Non-Biting Talking Pillow using GAGT
 
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yoyokid

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Good perspective LiLAsN!
Public forum means opposing views and discussions / debates.
Closed forum / Private facebook groups can have better control of singular ideas and rejection of opposing views. Good real life examples include churches / mosques / temples.
To be sure, audiophiles are really no different from some religious fanatics... who believe what they like to believe... Lol... :s13:

.. as for speaker cables, I'll just stick to my trusty gold/silver ones... :)
 

Clearnfc

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Btw, even if at the end of the test, user insists he can hear the difference, no one can really say he's wrong, because no one else has his ears.

But the captured data will help to narrow down all the guessing. Another person can look at the data and decides it's not worth his time and money. Yet another person may decide the cables' looks matches his audio system. Like Porsche car need to match Porsche wheels and not monster truck wheels...

But from a cable seller pov, I can understand their reluctance...

For this, it is still impossible to tell by looking at the data. Like what you have mentioned, matching is important. No matter how good the cable seems on paper, it may not be suitable for your system. Certain cables may sound too bright on some systems and its really horrible. But on some its sounds great.

Using porsche as an analogy. You replace the suspension of the porsche. It looks awesome on paper, spring rate, damping rate etc...the springs and dampers are carefully matched to ensure they are the same (yes, not joking, me also into cars). But without driving the car, how do you tell it is indeed better??

I originally thought that multi-link is the best. Till cruze changes my thinking. Their torsion beam with watts link beat the bmws...me speechless ...

Also matching, it doesnt mean good or racing springs and dampers is good for the car. You might find your car too bumpy because road is uneven. Then too stiff also causes wheel lift due to uneven road surface. Then later, its the chassis flexing instead. Lowering ride height looks good, lower cg. Supposed to be better in corner. Not so, too low affects your suspension arm angle and hence roll center, could make things worse instead.
 

Clearnfc

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Anyone here calculate how much power is lost/voltage drop through the speaker cables? So to size them appropriately?

For my work in real life, i often need to size power cables and calculate voltage drop and short circuit capacity for electrical installation (so to comply to code of practice).

But i am not sure what should be taken into account if i were to calculate for speaker and amplifier.

Im thinking whether the drop in voltage due to small cable size between amp and speaker will have an impact or not.

In the past, i estimate the power sent to my speaker by measuring the voltage at the speaker terminal, then square the value and divide by the nominal resistance. Then i set the limiter on my processor to limit power. But the impedance of speaker coil varies with frequency.
Maybe when im free i think about this.

Just some thinking.

Sent from Your Favourite Non-Biting Talking Pillow using GAGT

Regarding this, voltage drop due to resistance is very little. But other factors like phase would be more apparent. Regarding a sweet spot, ASR mentioned about 12AWG. Thicker is better but may be hard to work with.
 

Clearnfc

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@LiLAsN, your that graph showing Western electric is similar to Audyssey multieq Software?
I thinking of going to SLT and hoot 1 pair of cables to replace for my front spk & run the software to see see.
Just out of curiosity and got spare cash.

Where to get this we 9awg?? Thinking of giving it a try... Hopefully my speaker posts wont come off...lol
 

wwenze

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Careful with talking about phase shift in cables... Wouldn't want to go into the same thinking trap we did with skin effect i.e. it exists but not at the amount where you think it matters.

Phase shift vs frequency is measurable with impulse response. You can also calculate it since it is due to RC or R(whatever the speaker complex load is). I mean if we are too arsed to calculate like most engineers are we can just measure. Any mic will do, too.

BTW here's the kicker: Your speakers have phase shifts by themselves. That's why newer speakers are more and more anal about time alignment.

Also your tweeter usually has resistors in series, it's in the crossover.

You know what else actually matters more when we talk about delay? The distance between you and your speaker.

This distance is also what causes time alignment to screw up when the distance between tweeter and woofer is different i.e. small vertical sweet spot. Notice how some speakers purposely put the tweeter slightly behind the woofer to fix this.

That's why the often mentioned head-vice joke in diyaudio.

Sound is 343m/s, so 0.1ms it travels 3.4cm. 0.1ms is also one whole cycle at 10kHz. How easy is it to find 3.4cm worth of difference in real life?
 
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wwenze

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Anyone here calculate how much power is lost/voltage drop through the speaker cables? So to size them appropriately?

For my work in real life, i often need to size power cables and calculate voltage drop and short circuit capacity for electrical installation (so to comply to code of practice).

But i am not sure what should be taken into account if i were to calculate for speaker and amplifier.

Im thinking whether the drop in voltage due to small cable size between amp and speaker will have an impact or not.

In the past, i estimate the power sent to my speaker by measuring the voltage at the speaker terminal, then square the value and divide by the nominal resistance. Then i set the limiter on my processor to limit power. But the impedance of speaker coil varies with frequency.
Maybe when im free i think about this.

Just some thinking.

Sent from Your Favourite Non-Biting Talking Pillow using GAGT

Here's how to calculate power loss in cable: Don't calculate power loss in cable.

In power transmission and etc, we care because the load is always changing. However speaker is a fixed load.

So all we need is to make sure the % loss in the cable is not significant, because that alters the sound because speaker impedance changes vs frequency.

Sound waves are recorded as voltage so just need to consider the accuracy of voltage.
 
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Clearnfc

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Careful with talking about phase shift in cables... Wouldn't want to go into the same thinking trap we did with skin effect i.e. it exists but not at the amount where you think it matters.

Phase shift vs frequency is measurable with impulse response. You can also calculate it since it is due to RC or R(whatever the speaker complex load is). I mean if we are too arsed to calculate like most engineers are we can just measure. Any mic will do, too.

BTW here's the kicker: Your speakers have phase shifts by themselves. That's why newer speakers are more and more anal about time alignment.

Also your tweeter usually has resistors in series, it's in the crossover.

You know what else actually matters more when we talk about delay? The distance between you and your speaker.

This distance is also what causes time alignment to screw up when the distance between tweeter and woofer is different i.e. small vertical sweet spot. Notice how some speakers purposely put the tweeter slightly behind the woofer to fix this.

That's why the often mentioned head-vice joke in diyaudio.

Sound is 343m/s, so 0.1ms it travels 3.4cm. 0.1ms is also one whole cycle at 10kHz. How easy is it to find 3.4cm worth of difference in real life?

Oh ok, thanks for pointing out.
 

LiLAsN

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My Amazon cable 16 AWG vs WE cable 9AWG impulse response (timing difference)

I'll make it very simple. These are the graphs of before and after for just my Front Right and Left speakers Before referring to me using the Amazon 16 AWG cables and their distance from my listening seat being the same to the WE 9AWG which I refer to as After with my fronts.

Similarly, I had bought a WE RCA interconnect cable for my subwoofer. Surprisingly, there were a difference to the phase delay as well.

Even though yes, as wwenze has pointed out, seems really minor and trivial. But it does make the soundstage sound like a mess when you have all the speakers' sounds reaching your ear at different timing taking into consideration the room reflections which Dirac also takes into consideration. Similar with REW.
That is why time alignments of all your speakers matter to me at least. Cos I heard that difference and the impulse response charts reflects it.

And then, I have my side surround speakers which are the nearest to the main listening seat. And not surprisingly, in both Before and After where there's literally no change in the cables, they are using some horrible 18AWG cables, the timing remains constant by the time the impulse response reaches the listening seat where the mic is picking up the timing in regards to delay.

As a side note, the chart below it is what Dirac does to the timing of the audio. Where it shifts so that all sounds from all the speakers reach the listening position at that 16.7ms mark.

Both right and left FRONT Speakers (with short 1m 16awg Amazon cables)
luIB0jJ.png


Both right and left FRONT Speakers (with longer 2m 9awg WE cables)
AP7keTB.png


Subwoofer Speaker (with 4.5m generic AmazonBasics Subwoofer RCA cable)
KRtY7TX.png


Subwoofer Speaker (with 3m WE subwoofer RCA cable)
jqkcymq.png


For reference in regards to the before and after tests which are done on 2 separate occasions, the side surround cables were the only constant. So this is to make sure the 2 tests above were because of the change of cables and not because of a different room or position of mic.
So the sides in the impulse response measurement chart should remain unchanged with the Before and After test.

Side surround speaker (with the same 18awg generic speaker cable) results received during the Amazon cable test
TTpa4ZH.png


Side surround speaker (with the same 18awg generic speaker cable) results received during the WE cable test
8SVmxOH.png
 
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LiLAsN

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For an interesting tidbit, have a look at what these guys also think of using Umik-1 with REW. How you can do more than just EQ but also time alignment for all of your speakers as well. With Dirac, the only difference is they do it all automatically for me. I used REW before. But yup. There is some learning curve. But follow some guides on YT and you will be fine.

But for actual application for your REW to your speaker setup, you will need a miniDSP to apply those REW settings. Thus why I chose the Dirac route. It does the same thing as REW but does it all automatically. And definitely with more precision than Audyssey.

 

wwenze

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Impulse response we're not just concerned with the timing, but the entire shape.

Because fourier series. If all frequencies reach at the same time, then u get the sharp square wave. If only high frequencies get delayed, then you get more curvey. Etc.
While most speakers IRL create a shape like... well stereophile has lots of examples. Well like your subwoofer also.
The impulse response can be FFT-ed to create the spectrum + phase plot in REW or similar. Then a FIR filter can be created.

Problem is to recreate a proper square shape, we need maybe at least 10x the bandwidth. So expect noisy data for signals at high frequencies. Notice a lot of the spikes probably don't last longer than one sample.

Subwoofer one is more conclusive. The duration of the differences last over a large enough samples to be a real result. Maybe the cable interacts with the line-level crossover. This should be measurable by measuring the signal on RCA at the load end.
 
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LiLAsN

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Impulse response we're not just concerned with the timing, but the entire shape.

Because fourier series. If all frequencies reach at the same time, then u get the sharp square wave. If only high frequencies get delayed, then you get more curvey. Etc.
While most speakers IRL create a shape like... well stereophile has lots of examples. Well like your subwoofer also.
The impulse response can be FFT-ed to create the spectrum + phase plot in REW or similar. Then a FIR filter can be created.

Problem is to recreate a proper square shape, we need maybe at least 10x the bandwidth. So expect noisy data for signals at high frequencies. Notice a lot of the spikes probably don't last longer than one sample.

Subwoofer one is more conclusive. The duration of the differences last over a large enough samples to be a real result. Maybe the cable interacts with the line-level crossover. This should be measurable by measuring the signal on RCA at the load end.

Oh my goodness... I just derped. I forgot to zoom out since I had probably zoomed in last time and it kept the measurement chart in a zoomed in state. Guess I'll repost my measurements including the missing high frequency again soon. Am busy now. :s13:
 
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wwenze

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Your room reflection is around 3ms?

The differences in the subwoofer measurements are at 2ms and even longer. Probably way past phase delay from cables already and likely differences in reflections.
 

LiLAsN

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So I just need to zoom in to the 1st 10ms of the speakers correct? Anyway, do you prefer me to leave both the right and left speakers combined in that 10ms zoomed in state too or change it to be separated?

Specifically which speakers do you have in mind? The fronts and subs or include the rear as well?


Your room reflection is around 3ms?

The differences in the subwoofer measurements are at 2ms and even longer. Probably way past phase delay from cables already and likely differences in reflections.

Here, I thought you were meant to look at the 9ms and the 8.3ms which means that the WE cables have a difference of 0.7ms and is therefore playing sound 0.7ms faster.

Now since Dirac was syncing all the audio to be playing at that 16ms mark, due to me using the old Dirac calibration profile where the delay Dirac applied to the subwoofer was 7ms, so that the 9ms will become 16ms.

When I use that same calibration profile meant for my old cable, it literally means that the subs will play at 15.3ms instead. Thus resulting in it being out of sync. Similarly, for the front speaker as well. with a difference of around 0.4ms. Meaning with the Dirac profile, audio is playing way faster than intended. I still have the centre and Atmos speakers that also has the new WE cables as well.

Together, all the speakers are playing at different times. And it resulted in my soundstage mess.
 
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wwenze

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I was speaking in relative terms, so the 10ms or 3ms after the main signal first appeared on the mic recording.

RC causes HF to shift more than LF i.e. you will see the shape change first before the entire thing shift.

The entire thing shifting without a shape change is more due to other factors. Example, your computer. It can lag.

Heck, I think when I tried measuring the latency on the S3000Pro my variation was in the order of a few ms.

If you think your Dirac measurements are wonky, just re measure it again a few times. Take whatever result that suits you better.
 
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lxXXxl

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now petetherock may have to come in and split the thread again, haha.....

But thanks for the links and sharing LiLAsN!
Haiz, now need to figure out the cheapest way to get Dirac into my PC again so that it is system wide rather than just specific apps.

I'm a bit confused by your experience though now. Are you saying with the Amazon cables installed, you have timing issues btw speakers? While with WE cables, you don't have timing issues?

Also curious, could the timing differences be a result of small changes in speaker positions when you switch cables earlier?
 
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