My bank savings yield has dropped below cpf oa2.5% for the first time in years and what it means for my housing loan

thretiredDad

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Fake news

i have been tweaking for years. Right now i put cash $1, cpf $xxxx

i just switched to cpf $1, cash $xxxx. Just applied today. 1 August effective

use cpf portal to do. Super easy man
what I mean is

if you only got $100,000 cash

you paid $500 cash to home loan every month
1 year $6000 cash

but what if

1 year later
ocbc 360 saving deposit rate
become 4% again

your $6,000 cash will lose this 4% saving interest
only $94,000 can earn 4% now

you will not be able to reverse this payment
 

BBCWatcher

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SSB price is fixed. you can only redeem it at 100, there is no other price increase or whatever inversion with market interest rate.
Yes, and that's what makes them attractive for "deep" emergency reserve funds and for specific near-term savings goals such as weddings and home down payments/renovations. Also, if/when market interest rates rise you can "trade up" your lower yielding SSBs for higher yielding ones. You may need more than one month to do it since an attractive SSB can be oversubscribed, but you can eventually trade up.
Liquidity in generalized way is overrated. People need liquidity. But how much? In Singapore, liquidity can come in many ways. cash, credit cards, borrow from friends and/or relatives, load from banks etc.
I broadly agree with that. Maintaining adequate liquidity is important. Maintaining excessive liquidity is costly.

It's very strange how so many people seem to have few if any concerns about the massive liquidity hit involved in buying a home. But many of the same people balk at depositing $500 in CPF SA. Huh?
Do you need buy a refrigerator? do you need buy it now? These questions are more important than whether you can use CPF OA to buy it.
Here I disagree. CPF OA (before age 55 at least) has some liquidity constraints, and that's a meaningful distinction.

If your refrigerator breaks, CPF OA (before age 55) won't help. You really should have some day-to-day cash on hand to replace a major appliance if need be. That's logical and sensible.

"Buy Now, Pay Later" financing is getting more popular in Singapore and in other countries for that matter. There's some circumstantial evidence that some younger adults (in particular) are using this form of financing too often and too much. If you're using this form of financing because you cannot afford to buy the product otherwise, that's a problem in my view. If you're using this form of financing because it genuinely costs less than what you can earn on your cash, OK, fair enough.
 

fr33d0m

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what I mean is

if you only got $100,000 cash

you paid $500 cash to home loan every month
1 year $6000 cash

but what if

1 year later
ocbc 360 saving deposit rate
become 4% again

your $6,000 cash will lose this 4% saving interest
only $94,000 can earn 4% now

you will not be able to reverse this payment

What if OCBC 360 becomes 0.05%? What if the money got scammed? What ifs.....
 

thretiredDad

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Yes, and that's what makes them attractive for "deep" emergency reserve funds and for specific near-term savings goals such as weddings and home down

to me
emergency fund
is a fund that I can access 24/7
without a fee
and not during weekday

do not want to
when I’m in need of fund at Fri night
my money stucked in mmf
I have to wait for mon - fri
to request for withdrawal
and receive my money on mon afternoon
or t+4
 

fr33d0m

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Here I disagree. CPF OA (before age 55 at least) has some liquidity constraints, and that's a meaningful distinction.

If your refrigerator breaks, CPF OA (before age 55) won't help. You really should have some day-to-day cash on hand to replace a major appliance if need be. That's logical and sensible.

"Buy Now, Pay Later" financing is getting more popular in Singapore and in other countries for that matter. There's some circumstantial evidence that some younger adults (in particular) are using this form of financing too often and too much. If you're using this form of financing because you cannot afford to buy the product otherwise, that's a problem in my view. If you're using this form of financing because it genuinely costs less than what you can earn on your cash, OK, fair enough.

You are talking about financial literacy, not really CPF OA liquidity. People who are financial illiterate have more to worry about than CPF OA liquidity.
 

thretiredDad

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What if OCBC 360 becomes 0.05%? What if the money got scammed? What ifs.....

if OCBC 360 become 0.05%
I will borrow more money
to buy more corporate bonds
buy more bnp or hsbc bonds

then better to
clear all housing loan
lock up all your money
in money vault
or just spend it
 

maumu

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I rather pay myself interest (accrued interest for CPF) than pay the banks interest.

... that's my take on this topic.
 

BBCWatcher

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to me
emergency fund
is a fund that I can access 24/7
without a fee
and not during weekday
Yes, it's reasonable to have some instantly liquid funds for emergencies. However, you don't necessarily need all emergency reserve funds instantly liquid. (I refer to this latter form of emergency reserve funds as "deep emergency reserve.") Singapore Savings Bonds are great after the first 2 emergency months. And it's not the end of the world if (for example) you charge some expenses on a credit card then repay your credit card bill later using proceeds from redeemed SSBs.
I rather pay myself interest (accrued interest for CPF) than pay the banks interest.
Would you unpack that a bit? In particular, doesn't the lender's mortgage interest rate matter?
 

chopra

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what I mean is

if you only got $100,000 cash

you paid $500 cash to home loan every month
1 year $6000 cash

but what if

1 year later
ocbc 360 saving deposit rate
become 4% again

your $6,000 cash will lose this 4% saving interest
only $94,000 can earn 4% now

you will not be able to reverse this payment
Thanks for clarifying! Your point is a little illogical but i get what u mean.

if i have $100k cash and $100k cpf oa, i will pay house loan using the one with lower yield.

if it rises to 4% in future, likely, tbill and other market might be similar. I will decide cash4% or cpf oa 2.5% or cpfoa-tbill%. Same logic, whichever lowest will be used for house loan, including the comparison with first 20k cpf oa2.5%
 

thretiredDad

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Yes, it's reasonable to have some instantly liquid funds for emergencies. However, you don't necessarily need all emergency reserve funds instantly liquid. (I refer to this latter form of emergency reserve funds as "deep emergency reserve.") Singapore Savings Bonds are great after the first 2 emergency months. And it's not the end of the world if (for example) you charge some expenses on a credit card then repay your credit card bill later using proceeds from redeemed SSBs.

Would you unpack that a bit? In particular, doesn't the lender's mortgage interest rate matter?
Then you have no idea
what emergency fund means
 

chopra

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if OCBC 360 become 0.05%
I will borrow more money
to buy more corporate bonds
buy more bnp or hsbc bonds

then better to
clear all housing loan
lock up all your money
in money vault
or just spend it
Ya I borrowed “money” as in housing loan. Multi million loan at 1.9% 5yr dbs fixed loan. Maturing in 2027. Janet yellens time….
 

chopra

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I rather pay myself interest (accrued interest for CPF) than pay the banks interest.

... that's my take on this topic.
U seem to convolute but ur logic is correct.

u are alluding , i should use my maybank 2.4% to do voluntary cpf oa to get 2.5%. Use 2.5% to pay off house loan.

at 0.1% diff, i wont ditch FULL liquidity with that yet
 

chopra

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i think what retiredDad is saying is that if you pay by Cash, and in case you need money in future, you cannot touch what you have in CPF

but if you pay by CPF, you will have more liquidity in the Cash you hold



Thanks too. Im ok. Both my household cash n cpf oa are 7digits each. I just look at %; less on liquidity
 

thretiredDad

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Thanks for clarifying! Your point is a little illogical but i get what u mean.

if i have $100k cash and $100k cpf oa, i will pay house loan using the one with lower yield.

if it rises to 4% in future, likely, tbill and other market might be similar. I will decide cash4% or cpf oa 2.5% or cpfoa-tbill%. Same logic, whichever lowest will be used for house loan, including the comparison with first 20k cpf oa2.5%

I guess to each his own

if you map out the cash flow
over an extended period
your logic to me doesnt make financial sense too

but again
is your money your CPF
i wouldn’t be doing the same
 

thretiredDad

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Thanks too. Im ok. Both my household cash n cpf oa are 7digits each. I just look at %; less on liquidity

household?
million in cash?
million in cpf OA?

i guess that is common

please try to aim
by individual
 

BBCWatcher

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if i have $100k cash and $100k cpf oa, i will pay house loan using the one with lower yield.
Not necessarily for at least three reasons:

(1) You can't use CPF OA for a kidney transplant, for example. What are your (genuine and reasonable) unrestricted liquidity needs?

(2) Should you be holding $100K of cash in the first place? (Or for that matter $100K of OA. $80K of that can be invested via the CPF Investment Scheme if you wish.)

(3) How do you evaluate the risk of adverse creditor and court claims? CPF savings (that are not invested via the CPF Investment Scheme) enjoy special asset protection characteristics.
Then you have no idea
what emergency fund means
Why don't you elaborate on how you disagree? But I don't think I'm suggesting anything radical here. I'm introducing the concept of "deep" emergency reserve, that's all. But there's no requirement to separate emergency reserve funds into deep and non-deep buckets. If you want more non-deep emergency reserve dollars and zero deep emergency reserve dollars, go for it. My view is that you don't actually need every dollar of your emergency reserve funds to be instantly liquid. Credit cards exist (some with stupidly high credit limits) if you need to bridge across a few days or a month.
 

maumu

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U seem to convolute but ur logic is correct.

u are alluding , i should use my maybank 2.4% to do voluntary cpf oa to get 2.5%. Use 2.5% to pay off house loan.

at 0.1% diff, i wont ditch FULL liquidity with that yet
will probably switch to refunding once the rates fall to 1.xx%

also depends on one's age. if close to 55 can start to treat refunding to OA as a fixed deposit... :D
 

thretiredDad

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Not necessarily for at least three reasons:

(1) You can't use CPF OA for a kidney transplant, for example. What are your (genuine and reasonable) unrestricted liquidity needs?

(2) Should you be holding $100K of cash in the first place?

(3) How do you evaluate the risk of adverse creditor and court claims? CPF savings (that are not invested via the CPF Investment Scheme) enjoy special asset protection characteristics.

Why don't you elaborate on how you disagree? But I don't think I'm suggesting anything radical here. I'm introducing the concept of "deep" emergency reserve, that's all. But there's no requirement to separate emergency reserve funds into deep and non-deep buckets. If you want more non-deep emergency reserve dollars and zero deep emergency reserve dollars, go for it. My view is that you don't actually need every dollar of your emergency reserve funds to be instantly liquid. Credit cards exist (some with stupidly high credit limits) if you need to bridge across a few days or a month.

When I say “emergency fund,”

I’m referring to the need to prepare for unknown events
that can occur at unpredictable times
and may require an uncertain amount of money to resolve.

This amount could be anything
— from as little as $1 to as much as $50,000 or even $400,000.

so for me
my emergency fund are in
uob one + dbs multiplier + Uob stash

restricted by $200,000 per day limit
 

chopra

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I guess to each his own

if you map out the cash flow
over an extended period
your logic to me doesnt make financial sense too

but again
is your money your CPF
i wouldn’t be doing the same
It’s quite odd that quantitatively, for a million cash + million equity + million cpf question, that we landed in 2 different answers.

the tazzy part n ur concern of having less cash to deploy is never really , a concern. Minimalist. Don’t spend much. Million dollar cash; wont burn in a year or two

it is also odd but not surprising that i had difficulty to quantify liquidity of cpf oa. Im 40s. So actually the journey to 55yo policy (assuming status quo) is not that long.

but ya, to each his own. As long as u know ur mathematics.
 
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