*Official* Shiny Things club - Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.

BBCWatcher

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
22,975
Reaction score
4,517
And why is this so?
I believe I've explained this, but I'll summarize again.

Family #1 in my example has more of its total household wealth in the form of home equity than Family #2. Real estate, in a simple "two bucket" model, is a stock-like asset, so Family #1 has a higher percentage of its total wealth in stocks/stock-likes than Family #2 has, ceteris paribus.

Family #1 would also have a greater local geographic portfolio risk (greater skew to Singapore-situated assets) than Family #2, again other things being equal, i.e. assuming that the rest of household wealth has the same local-global percentage split. If Singapore-based assets fall (or crash) in value relative to the rest of the world, Family #1's total wealth takes a bigger hit than Family #2's. That actually happened in the Asian Financial Crisis, so it's not some esoteric idea.

Are these risk-related differences necessarily a concern, meriting any particular action? Not necessarily, but the risk differentials are real and ought to be surfaced. I should also point out that retirees in Singapore properly ought to be substantially "local" in their portfolio allocations simply because they're trying to support a Singapore-based retirement lifestyle. So I'm not necessarily suggesting "better" or "worse" here, but I think the portfolio risk profiles, whatever they are, should be surfaced for consideration.
 
Last edited:

razoreigns

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
285
Reaction score
11
Wow! Just wow! I printed this out for my future reference. You should really compile a book. Seriously.

Let me start with this: I prefer a slightly different model for long-term investing. I prefer the "Vanguard Target Date" model, which is (oversimplifying slightly):

(a) Hold an 80-20 stocks/bonds split until 7 years before drawdown age, then
(b) Use the 7 year period before drawdown age to rebalance from 80-20 to 30-70, then
(c) Hold 30-70 thereafter, or possibly slowly rebalance to 20-80.

I prefer this model because retirement age expectations vary, life expectancies vary, and life expectancy is increasing (in Singapore anyway). The "110" makes assumptions about all of those factors, and there's no need to make those assumptions fixed since you (the long-term investor) can probably make some good estimates for yourself. It also implies a progressively increasing bond allocation through an entire working career, and I don't think cutting off that corner of the rectangle makes much sense. And 110-age implies more active trading because every year the percentages change, and I just don't think that's a good implication psychologically, at least. Prudent long-term investing should be very non-active, with an awful lot of "keep doing more the same way" doggedness. Vanguard fundamentally agrees with me because that's how they've designed their target date funds, so I'm in good company. ;)

This is a very good model. Makes a lot of sense and also easy to implement. I assume emergency cash and daily funds are counted under bond-like bucket?

OK, here in Singapore there's a "problem": housing is just so damn expensive. If you consume your housing in owner-occupied form, then (for most households) the equity will eventually be a relatively huge share of total household wealth. That's just how it goes.

In terms of counting the property value, do you just count the owner equity portion (net of loans), or the full market value of the property? For example, a $200k property that you still owe $100k on. Should I count the full $200k? Logically, I should since I have full exposure in it?
 
Last edited:

Shiny Things

Supremacy Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
9,548
Reaction score
759
BBCW, I have to politely disagree with you on this one.

I think investment properties should be set aside from a “110 minus your age” portfolio (or a glide-slope portfolio like you prefer); and primary residences shouldn’t be counted as investments at all.

Now, we could just wave all that away and pretend that important wealth doesn't exist. But I don't like that idea. Doing that would mean, among other things, that an otherwise similarly situated family that buys a 4 bedroom condo compared to another family that buys a 2 bedroom HDB (3 room unit) would be taking equal total investment risks (in allocation percentage terms) if all other savings were invested in the same way. And that's just not right. There really is more stock-like risk for Family #1 compared to Family #2.
[...]
OK, fast forward, and now we're getting near retirement. So the "Vanguard model" suggests a 30-70 split when the couple (let's suppose) hits age 65 (for example, as a classic/traditional retirement age). And let's suppose home equity represents 50% of total household wealth, still. Thus, even if the entire other half of total household wealth shifted to bonds, Vanguard's "rule of thumb" 30-70 split can never be achieved, not with this level of home equity. Is *that* a problem? Maybe, maybe not. At that point you can simply say, "Well, I'm not going to sell my home, and I still think it's the right size. And I feel comfortable with keeping 15% of my total wealth in stocks and the rest in bonds by the time I hit age 65."

Hmmm. So I’ve had a think through this, and I have to disagree on a couple of fundamental points.

Firstly, don’t write off the value of simplicity. The good thing about the 110-minus-your-age rule is that it’s dead easy to follow, so it encourages people to get started with investing rather than being intimidated by decision-making before they even start.

A primary residence is different from other assets, because people’s behavior around selling it is very different. If you own stocks, bonds, or investment properties, you can sell them to pay for expenses (say, when you retire). But a primary residence is not something you can sell, except in the most extreme circumstances. You might downsize when you retire, or you might sell it and rent if you’re desperate for cash—but realistically, a primary residence is not an “investment asset”.

If it’s not something you can sell and take profit on, it doesn’t really belong in an investment portfolio.

On the second point, the problem with investment properties in a “110-minus-your-age” portfolio is that they tend to be levered. That means you need to think about: do you just count the equity, or do you count the total notional value? And how do you take account of the loan itself: that sort of offsets the interest on the bond side of your portfolio?

Unlevered vs levered positions are best kept separate.

Separately, to engage with your thought about what happens in the glide path: don’t forget that the equity in the house will increase as you pay down the loan. It seems like we both agree that there’s a situation where the house equity could completely eat up the “stock” allocation, meaning that the only liquid asset that people hold is bonds—but that doesn’t seem good to me.

Firstly, it makes it pretty much impossible to rebalance, because all of the “risky” assets are locked up in a form that can’t be easily sold. And secondly, it means that when our family wants to draw down to cover their retirement expenses, they have to either draw down from their bonds (so their portfolio gets riskier)... or sell their house. Both of those seem like bad options.

It’s better to keep it simple and keep properties out of the equation.

I assume emergency cash and daily funds are counted under bond-like bucket?

Definitely not. Your emergency fund and your day-to-day cash are completely separate from your investment portfolio; they don’t get counted at all.

In terms of counting the property value, do you just count the owner equity portion (net of loans), or the full market value of the property? For example, a $200k property that you still owe $100k on. Should I count the full $200k? Logically, I should since I have full exposure in it?

Yeah, this is a surprisingly difficult question to answer. It’s the equivalent of having a fairly chunky margin loan on a large equity position.

This is why I’d keep investment properties separate from a “110 minus your age” portfolio. If you keep the property and its loan in a separate pile (even if it’s just in your mind), you can pay more attention to questions like “is the property covering the cost of the mortgage?”.
 

BBCWatcher

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
22,975
Reaction score
4,517
Yes, we’re going to disagree about this one. You’re fundamentally arguing that real estate holdings don’t matter. One home or 14 homes, 2 room HDB units in Punggol or landed near Orchard Road, it just doesn’t matter. That approach doesn’t make sense to me at all, especially in Singapore.

As for 110-age v. Vanguard-style, they’re both decent, but my major quibble with the former is that it features “action bias,” which is not helpful. Every birthday the operable rule changes? No, not necessary. Investing should be, needs to be, even more boring than that. How about one static rule before age 55, after you’ve had ~30 years of confidence building? Simple!

I disagree about excluding cash and emergency reserve. You need those things, but they also obviously count in household portfolio allocation measures. Just how complicated are we going to get here in deciding what’s in and what’s out? Count it all!
 

little pupsky

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
364
Reaction score
93
I agree with ST’s stand on whether or not to count properties. Of course his explanation is way clearer than I could ever make it.

One’s primary residence should not be counted in one’s investment portfolio for all the reasons ST listed. The psychological ones are particularly insightful.

For me, any mortgage on my primary residence goes into my computation of net worth. I’m in two minds on whether to even count the equity value of my primary residence in my net worth computation. A primary residence simply has very different psychological and practical considerations, even if you can argue financially for its inclusion in portfolio or net worth computations.
 
Last edited:

swordsly

Master Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2008
Messages
3,400
Reaction score
0
There is 1) calculating and being aware of one's entire net worth. There is also 2) deciding one's investment portfolio for retirement purposes.

We shouldn't conflate these 2 together.

You want to know what your total wealth is like? Yeah sure go ahead and include everything in.
But when it comes to your portfolio that you are building for retirement? Why complicate things?

Treat each component according to their purposes, like buckets.
If you have secondary properties that you rent out for income (or intend to flip it because you have foresight)? Yeah sure that's equity like I suppose. Otherwise, a primary residence is what it is, a place to stay; a home.
 

FrostWurm

Master Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
3,248
Reaction score
647
come on BBCw, that's NOT what ST said...

Yeah...BBCW has a particularly bizarre habit of misrepresenting what others have said; either exaggerating their arguments or twisting their words. It's not the first time for sure.

He does provide some legit good advice, but it would be best if he can avoid resorting to this. It seems that he either does not want to engage in debate in an honest manner, or he has such trouble comprehending that he infers a different meaning than was intended.

A trumpian approach is the last thing we need.
 

Fcesca

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2018
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
It’s GBP.USD.

Side note: the convention in FX markets has always been that euros and commonwealth currencies get quoted before the USD. The actual rules for default quotation direction are horrifically complex, sometimes vary depending on which bank is asking, caused me no end of headaches at my previous job, and boy oh boy can I go on about them if you want to.

Ah ok, thank you. I got confused about the ordering of the currencies and thought it meant you could only trade in a certain direction.

You mention you do private consulting arrangement, what way can we contact you privately around this?
 

Thoreldan

Arch-Supremacy Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
18,595
Reaction score
13,492
Hi guys can discuss this article compared unit trust to etf

I was advised by a financial advisor to buy unit trust over etf.

What's your opinion guys. To me the reasons given seem not very convincing. Especially as idea has no tax.

https://advice.moneyowl.com.sg/why-unit-trusts-and-not-etf/


You help fund his condo/flashy car when u buy unit-trust linked policy from him.

He earns nothing from you if get etf yourself via a trading platform.

Isn't that a simple enough reason?
 

klarklar

Supremacy Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
9,227
Reaction score
603

FrostWurm

Master Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
3,248
Reaction score
647
Hi guys can discuss this article compared unit trust to etf

I was advised by a financial advisor to buy unit trust over etf.

What's your opinion guys. To me the reasons given seem not very convincing. Especially as idea has no tax.

https://advice.moneyowl.com.sg/why-unit-trusts-and-not-etf/

That article is pretty deceptive in several ways:

1) He compared a "low-cost" unit trust that has an expense ratio of 0.30% to a "low-cost" etf that has an expense ratio of 0.20% and claimed to have saved 0.10%.

This is far-fetched as most "low-cost" unit trusts have expense ratios of more than 0.30%, while the lowest-cost etf can even be less than 0.05%.

Indeed, the platform he is promoting at the bottom of the page is already having an expense ratio of 0.5%.

2) He compared a unit trust domiciled in Ireland to an etf domiciled in USA. He then claimed that unit trusts therefore have a lower dividend witholding tax rate :s13:.

3) The "share ownership aspect" of ETFs that is presented as a disadvantage is just silly. I'm too lazy to type it out, but he is basically presenting a "solution" to a non-existent problem.

4) He says MoneyOwl selects global bond funds that are hedged to SGD, and selects global equity funds that are unhedged. Then abruptly goes on to claim that the unit trust is somehow better than the etf because of this.

Err...hedging comes at a cost, and it should only be given a little more consideration if you need to cash out the investment soon.

5) Overall, it is just an advertisment for MoneyOwl using some not-so-good arguments. In fact, one of the most important areas that was not even mentioned is passive vs active management.
 

tangent314

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,136
Reaction score
227
He's also applying DWT twice for a Singaporean holding SPY, which we all know is false and should only apply once. Of course, CSPX would be more suitable but I guess using that would defeat the purpose of the self-serving 'article'.
 

Shiny Things

Supremacy Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
9,548
Reaction score
759
Ah ok, thank you. I got confused about the ordering of the currencies and thought it meant you could only trade in a certain direction.

You mention you do private consulting arrangement, what way can we contact you privately around this?

DM me and I’ll ping you my email address.
 

w1rbelw1nd

Master Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
3,115
Reaction score
6
Well. If you read carefully what he meant is that if you buy a global index through a US-listed ETF, you would be paying twice the DWT. Say the dividends from the Australian stocks will be taxed by the Australian tax authorities before it's distributed to the ETF, and when the aggregated remaining dividends, when issued to ETF ownsrs, will be taxed by US tax authorities. It's potentially taxed twice.

He's also applying DWT twice for a Singaporean holding SPY, which we all know is false and should only apply once. Of course, CSPX would be more suitable but I guess using that would defeat the purpose of the self-serving 'article'.
 

lawd2005

Junior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
GBP hedge

Hi HWZ'rs

I have 50k GBP income coming in Dec. I will be receiving in SGD bank account and want it at todays FX rate.

I don't have a crystal ball, and don't want to predict what will happen to GBP come the new prime minister/ brexit etc.

I have an IB account that I just buy IWDA in, but i'm allowed to deal in fruity stuff also.

Is there a way I can lock in todays exchange for money coming in Dec? FX options etc.? The more straight forward the better, but I don't mind some effort.

Cheers in advance
 

Shiny Things

Supremacy Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
9,548
Reaction score
759
Hi HWZ'rs

I have 50k GBP income coming in Dec. I will be receiving in SGD bank account and want it at todays FX rate.

I don't have a crystal ball, and don't want to predict what will happen to GBP come the new prime minister/ brexit etc.

I have an IB account that I just buy IWDA in, but i'm allowed to deal in fruity stuff also.

Is there a way I can lock in todays exchange for money coming in Dec? FX options etc.? The more straight forward the better, but I don't mind some effort.

Cheers in advance

If you have an account with Saxo, they should let you do GBPSGD FX forwards and they should quote you a price out to the 6-month mark. Expect a pretty wide spread though; they're the only shop that offers FX forwards to retail and they charge accordingly.

If you don't have an account with Saxo, you can still do a dirty hedge if you've got an IBKR account. There isn't really a good exchange-traded market in USDSGD futures, but there's a solid market in GBP futures and options-on-futures on the CME. That means you can at least hedge the GBPUSD leg, which'll leave you with some slightly less fruity USDSGD risk.

Note that the notional of the CME GBP futures and options is 62500 GBP, so this isn't an exact hedge, but it's close-enough-for-government-work.

Two ways you can do it:
  • Sell one lot of December GBPUSD futures (currently 1.2597 bid); or,
  • Buy one lot of the December 1.26-strike GBPUSD puts (currently 284 ticks offered, but it's wide because it's off-hours right now).

If I were in your shoes I'd buy the GBP puts. That way if everything works out and GBP rallies you get to participate, but if GBP tanks your losses are capped. If you sell the futures, you're protected on the downside but you've also given away all the upside.

Again, this isn't an exact hedge because the notional is a bit off, and it's only hedging one side of the FX, but it's the closest you'll get without opening a Saxo account and doing the FX forward.
 

Sunader

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Question on buying IWDA through StanChart

Hi All,

Just finished reading RbR, and am attempting to buy IWDA shares through the Stanchart platform. However, upon submitting the request, I am required to complete a Customer Account Review form to determine if I am eligible to trade Specified Investment Products - now I have no formal finance creditation or experience, and therefore failed the reviewed, and am unable to buy shares. Is there a workaround for this?

Really appreciate any advice!

Thanks!
 

lawd2005

Junior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Note that the notional of the CME GBP futures and options is 62500 GBP, so this isn't an exact hedge, but it's close-enough-for-government-work.

Two ways you can do it:
  • Sell one lot of December GBPUSD futures (currently 1.2597 bid); or,
  • Buy one lot of the December 1.26-strike GBPUSD puts (currently 284 ticks offered, but it's wide because it's off-hours right now).

If I were in your shoes I'd buy the GBP puts. That way if everything works out and GBP rallies you get to participate, but if GBP tanks your losses are capped. If you sell the futures, you're protected on the downside but you've also given away all the upside.

Again, this isn't an exact hedge because the notional is a bit off, and it's only hedging one side of the FX, but it's the closest you'll get without opening a Saxo account and doing the FX forward.

Fantastic advice - thank you. I was trying to figure this out myself, and you have saved me a lot of time, and I may not have arrived at this conclusion which seems perfect for me. Will have to be IBKR.

I am fine with USD risk - as per Andrew Hallam as an expat in SG that doesn't know where I will retire - just buy USD. As am doing with IWDA.

I did buy put options before - punt on a stock where I wanted to limit downside an max upside. The company missed their results bigly - but guided positive for next quarter (they also report 5 weeks in to the quarter.) Share price went up and I got rinsed. Expensive lesson - better learning sooner rather than later.

But, this is a horse of another colour - and trying to de-risk as opposed to assuming it. The lot size looks fine for me - would be impossible to get perfect with a put.

Ticks showing 224 at the moment at 1.24 strike and 304 at 1.26 strike
N00b Question: what currency is this? My IBKR is SGD
Also, from my circumstances and current bid at 1.2467 - which would you go for?

***Edit*** think I answered my noob Q -currency for the put is GBP, right?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Important Forum Advisory Note
This forum is moderated by volunteer moderators who will react only to members' feedback on posts. Moderators are not employees or representatives of HWZ. Forum members and moderators are responsible for their own posts.

Please refer to our Community Guidelines and Standards, Terms of Service and Member T&Cs for more information.
Top