Ok please explain my 3 points

Kumar22

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I got 3 points some time back.
Context: WhyNPNT and Ayayaangry either got banned or had their ability to use all the forums functions curtailed.
Which is which, doesn't matter. Somebody said, why don't appeal to forum Admin Vijay.
I replied Vijay is useless. Meaning of course, he won't do anything. Or maybe perhaps, his manner of running things don't square with mine.
This is an infarction?
I can criticise the Govt of being useless, I can criticise Ministers as useless. I have done so and so have many others. We are not taken to task, we are not sued, nobody reports us in that FB or other social media issue bans or whatever.
This is a personal opinion. Just because I say you're useless, does it you are? I may think you're usless, another may think you're a saint or the most capable person ever. What difference is there?

So I ask a few things:
1) Is Vijay insulted by those remarks, if so, how please explain. So perhaps I can understand what is wrong and maybe seek a fuller clarification from SPH as to the limits of criticising its officers.
2) If Vijay was not insulted or didn't feel so, then which learned Mod thought it was that it needed an infarction?

If indeed calling someone useless is deemed insulting, then I expect that every time someone in the forum criticises anybody be it a political party, a sportsman, an MP, a business leader, just about anybody, that it becomes an insult and action will be taken.

Because I'm 100% sure if today I write to Khaw Boon Hwan your new SPH Chairman or CEO or whatever role he has and say directly to him, I think you're useless and shouldn't be given the job, he's not gonna feel an insult and will just brush it off. My opinion good or bad, won't detract him from the job he has been detailed to do.

So what is good for the goose must be good for the gander.

Thus I expect a revocation of this ridiculous infarction. If you insist though it's correct then possibly I may have to write to Mr Khaw directly and seek his wisdom on the matter, to clarify the issue once and for all.
 

IndianChief

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To quote Law minister Shanmugam

"If you make a personal allegation of fact, if you say I took money, I am corrupt, I will then sue you and ask you to prove it. But if you say I am a stupid fool who doesn't know what I'm talking about, and the Government comprises ministers who don't know what they're talking about and you criticise every policy of the Government, no one can sue you," he said.

"By all means challenge my competence, by all means challenge my policies, by all means put forward alternate policies. By all means argue it, no problem. That's not defamation."
 

Kumar22

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To quote Law minister Shanmugam

"If you make a personal allegation of fact, if you say I took money, I am corrupt, I will then sue you and ask you to prove it. But if you say I am a stupid fool who doesn't know what I'm talking about, and the Government comprises ministers who don't know what they're talking about and you criticise every policy of the Government, no one can sue you," he said.

"By all means challenge my competence, by all means challenge my policies, by all means put forward alternate policies. By all means argue it, no problem. That's not defamation."
Thank you very much. I was looking for something similar by Lee Jr when he sued Roy Ngerng. But just couldn't google the exact statement he made then.
But basically along the same lines, you can say I'm useless and criticise the way I do things, that's perfectly okay. But when you say I'm corrupt, then you have to provide evidence, if not I will sue.

But seems our mods and admin here take great umbrage when people call them out and question their decisions. Then there's that oft used excuse, not paid but volunteers giving up their time to do service, along those lines. Well nobody forced you did they? You volunteered, and just because you volunteered, doesn't mean you cannot be criticised/questioned or described as inept, useless

In this line you must have a higher tolerance level, I was a referee once and I've been a mod elsewhere too. You have to accept all these as par for the course. Just because people say things about your ability, doesn't mean you must take umbrage. If you can't take it, then quit. Volunteerism after all.

But you want that power right, just not the things that will question that power and its use. There is no consistency and many a time things that should be moderated are ignored, and things that need not be, are.

Oh I also forget another gem. We can't read every single post or thread. There is a report button, use it. Then we can act.

Ok fair enough, but why don't you say the same thing when you got POFMA orders? You think the Govt or IMDA or any other authority care about your 'problem or difficulty' in examining every post. That's not a valid excuse as far as they are concerned. It's your platform, your are answerable for anything improper.
Same concept applies, you can't handle, find someone else who can and will. Your forum rules and disclaimers has no effect as far as the authorities are concerned.

So that's why I say
a) no consistency
b) over moderation on minor stuff
c) overly sensitive - maybe due to lack of maturity.
d) Failure or slow to react on things that are serious. Or the wrong cause of action taken. Like deleting the thread, instead of locking it and referring it to the authorities.

It should not be just for users to report matters to the authorities, you should be the first to do it, not wait for the authorities to write in and seek details.

Anyway still no reply, despite me asking this question in 2 previous threads and now creating 1 specifically for an answer. Even tagged our @Dr.Vijay

And I don't really need an explanation or rebuttal for points a-d. It's my opinion. Wanna rebut/explain by all means. But I want is an explanation for that infarction.
 

IndianChief

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Thank you very much. I was looking for something similar by Lee Jr when he sued Roy Ngerng. But just couldn't google the exact statement he made then.
But basically along the same lines, you can say I'm useless and criticise the way I do things, that's perfectly okay. But when you say I'm corrupt, then you have to provide evidence, if not I will sue.

But seems our mods and admin here take great umbrage when people call them out and question their decisions. Then there's that oft used excuse, not paid but volunteers giving up their time to do service, along those lines. Well nobody forced you did they? You volunteered, and just because you volunteered, doesn't mean you cannot be criticised/questioned or described as inept, useless

In this line you must have a higher tolerance level, I was a referee once and I've been a mod elsewhere too. You have to accept all these as par for the course. Just because people say things about your ability, doesn't mean you must take umbrage. If you can't take it, then quit. Volunteerism after all.

But you want that power right, just not the things that will question that power and its use. There is no consistency and many a time things that should be moderated are ignored, and things that need not be, are.

Oh I also forget another gem. We can't read every single post or thread. There is a report button, use it. Then we can act.

Ok fair enough, but why don't you say the same thing when you got POFMA orders? You think the Govt or IMDA or any other authority care about your 'problem or difficulty' in examining every post. That's not a valid excuse as far as they are concerned. It's your platform, your are answerable for anything improper.
Same concept applies, you can't handle, find someone else who can and will. Your forum rules and disclaimers has no effect as far as the authorities are concerned.

So that's why I say
a) no consistency
b) over moderation on minor stuff
c) overly sensitive - maybe due to lack of maturity.
d) Failure or slow to react on things that are serious. Or the wrong cause of action taken. Like deleting the thread, instead of locking it and referring it to the authorities.

It should not be just for users to report matters to the authorities, you should be the first to do it, not wait for the authorities to write in and seek details.

Anyway still no reply, despite me asking this question in 2 previous threads and now creating 1 specifically for an answer. Even tagged our @Dr.Vijay

And I don't really need an explanation or rebuttal for points a-d. It's my opinion. Wanna rebut/explain by all means. But I want is an explanation for that infarction.

i hope they do give a explanation on the Vijay part cause i kanna for a similar comment last week. Although based on my years of experience here, dun count on it.

Anyway it is my opinion as well that there is no consistency and impartiality as well. The talk doesn't match the actions. you cant just brush off inconsistent actions by saying "I'm partial". Just to give an example, there is so many people here posting KYM threads, choose left or right before you come in threads, so many threads on women being SPGs etc that objectify women... nothing happens... But when i post a troll thread on why do girls like ceca/amdk kkj or something like that, the mod loses his mind goes mental screaming that i'm vile and disgusting and hijacks another unrelated thread calling me these terms to influence the public opinion against me ( what happened to forum rules on not insulting others? It doesn't apply to them). And when i respond to him, he says you like challenge mods, here's your ban (example of taking umbrage)... This is impartial? give me a break.

i mean, since the "i call a spade a spade" is one of the favorite phrases used here... let me call a spade a spade as well... if you need to 24/7 keep repeating that you are impartial, it probably means that you are not. Impartiality is what others can see and decide for themselves based on your actions, not something you ownself declare and ownself award yourself.
 
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Cobra!

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We need a codified statute for edmw.
 

Kumar22

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i hope they do give a explanation on the Vijay part cause i kanna for a similar comment last week. Although based on my years of experience here, dun count on it.

Anyway it is my opinion as well that there is no consistency and impartiality as well. The talk doesn't match the actions. you cant just brush off inconsistent actions by saying "I'm partial". Just to give an example, there is so many people here posting KYM threads, choose left or right before you come in threads, so many threads on women being SPGs etc that objectify women... nothing happens... But when i post a troll thread on why do girls like ceca/amdk kkj or something like that, the mod loses his mind goes mental screaming that i'm vile and disgusting and hijacks another thread calling me these terms to influence the public opinion against me ( what happened to forum rules on not insulting others? It doesn't apply to them). And when i respond to him, he says you like challenge mods, here's your ban (example of taking umbrage)... This is impartial? give me a break.

i mean, since the i call a spade a spade is one of the favorite phrases used here... let me call a spade a spade as well... if you need to 24/7 keep repeating that you are impartial, it probably means that you are not. Impartiality is what others can see and decide for themselves based on your actions, not something you ownself declare and ownself award yourself.
Bold: This should never be the case. You provide a feedback channel for this very purpose, you cannot turn around and say, you're now challenging our authority. You can't have your cake and eat it.
If no questions (or in their view challenges as you say) can be asked on moderating actions, then remove or close this sub-forum. No one will question anymore.
Of course I'm speaking in general, I don't really know the extent of your feuds with the Mods. They may have a different spin on it, which they can state to defend their actions.
But based purely on what you have said in the episode above, then the use of the term/phrase 'challenging mods' would be unethical, if it was asked here (in the correct forum). If you were baited and insulted in order to get you to cross a line where points/bans can be issued, that too would be wrong.

Other points:
I can understand lewdness and things of that nature would not be tolerated.
However we are all adults, I forget but don't you have to declare that you're a certain age before you can post here?
So talk about sex related stuff which isn't descriptive or vulgar, why can't be discussed here? Personally I'm not interested in such content. But I suppose it's popular with many, especially beautiful gals, scantily clad and in suggestive poses. But if those pictures wouldn't break a law, then it should be ok. Generally any talk that's not vulgar as in descriptive porn, why should anyone bother? This is not a forum for kids.

But perhaps I sense it's your anti-CECA stance, that got you into trouble. I've spoken to about 3 others in the same position as you, all got bans for that topic. 1 has quit because he's fed up with the way Mods treated him, for raising issues about the CECA treaty and Indian Indians in particular.

In fact I can agree, it's kinda boring reading so many CECA related topics or whatever moronic things Indians in India do. But should there be a limit? Again I don't think so. This is the hottest topic in Singapore today. Go read Lim Tean, PSP, Goh Meng Seng and other oppo politicians, they are all raising it if not daily then at least a few times a week. A lot people too have so many issues with the policy and the attitude, behaviour of FTs here especially the Indians. You cannot just declare the subject closed because you don't like it or there's too many threads.
I don't think any forums limit the number of threads people can post, if they are not on similar subjects. If they are, then consolidate them.

So I guess that's what they mean by challenging the mods. They are unhappy with you because of your views on the CECA issue. I could be wrong though.

But whatever it is, I think a lighter moderation and more tolerance would be the best solution.
Issuing threats and targetting someone IMO is not the correct thing to do.
 

IndianChief

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Of course I'm speaking in general, I don't really know the extent of your feuds with the Mods. They may have a different spin on it, which they can state to defend their actions.
But based purely on what you have said in the episode above, then the use of the term/phrase 'challenging mods' would be unethical, if it was asked here (in the correct forum). If you were baited and insulted in order to get you to cross a line where points/bans can be issued, that too would be wrong.
im sure they do, but to be fair i did attack them cause i was provoked. so ban ban loh... i gave them the ammunition by attacking instead of controlling and sucking it up so i deserve it i guess? Anyway i didn't raise a dispute on it although the whole issue soured my opinion on the "impartiality" here.

but anyway, not to digress, agree with all the points you raised. i also think you have raised the issue enough times with valid concerns to warrant an explanation. So if they still don't respond, i think its a case of they do not want to.. Afterall no one will want to admit they take umbrage with criticism... Not good optics.
 

Kumar22

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We need a codified statute for edmw.
Funny I can see the pov of many of the complainants and so called trouble makers.
But our Mods can't..
Just chill lah, don't take umbrage and let things slide as far as possible, unless it's something totally out of order.

Ignorance is Bliss as the saying goes..
 

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Just putting out a note and response for the sake of it. :)

Your points had been duly noted but I am not sure if Vijay feels compelled enough to respond. So let's sit tight and see.
 

Kumar22

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Just putting out a note and response for the sake of it. :)

Your points had been duly noted but I am not sure if Vijay feels compelled enough to respond. So let's sit tight and see.
Thank you for the response.
If there is no response, then can you do the right thing and remove it and accept as an error of the part of the Mod who issued it. I doubt it was Vijay in the first place.

It should not be any insult if anyone questions competence so long it does not descend in hateful or spiteful comments or along similar lines.
Despite all I've written about moderation in the post, those are just certain examples not necessarily an everyday thing. I think to be fair most occasions the Moderators act within the confines of the rules and a proper interpretation of them.
 

IndianChief

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While everyone is waiting for Kumar22 to get a response on his queries

i would also like my infraction (bans i already forced to serve but points can be reversed) to be reviewed and reversed as the context is similar. I got infracted/banned for saying your SPH Chairman KBW should whip the admin into shape in the "admin must harakiri" thread which was created by some other user after the server issues, which has since been deleted.

Again same questions as Kumar22 (sorry to use the questions you posed) pointed out.

1) Is admin insulted by those remarks, if so, how please explain.
2) If Admin was not insulted or didn't feel so, then which learned Mod took umbrage and thought it needed an infraction?
 

lyfeforce

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Thank you for the response.
If there is no response, then can you do the right thing and remove it and accept as an error of the part of the Mod who issued it. I doubt it was Vijay in the first place.

It should not be any insult if anyone questions competence so long it does not descend in hateful or spiteful comments or along similar lines.
Despite all I've written about moderation in the post, those are just certain examples not necessarily an everyday thing. I think to be fair most occasions the Moderators act within the confines of the rules and a proper interpretation of them.
We've reviewed the infraction and, on hindsight, we do agree that it may have been harsh. So we have reversed that infraction.

Having said that, we do not agree with your post regarding Dr.Vijay's competence. Often many mistake his role to be primarily in charge of the moderators and their actions and any blame should go to him. His role is more editorial and, as such, cannot be expected to answer queries as and when they come.

We have always advised moderators to handle cases when they are able, but considering that they have numerous reports to monitor (many of them frivolous), on top of their own jobs they have, we seek understanding that sometimes things may slip past.
 

Kumar22

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We've reviewed the infraction and, on hindsight, we do agree that it may have been harsh. So we have reversed that infraction.

Having said that, we do not agree with your post regarding Dr.Vijay's competence. Often many mistake his role to be primarily in charge of the moderators and their actions and any blame should go to him. His role is more editorial and, as such, cannot be expected to answer queries as and when they come.

We have always advised moderators to handle cases when they are able, but considering that they have numerous reports to monitor (many of them frivolous), on top of their own jobs they have, we seek understanding that sometimes things may slip past.
Ok noted.
Now to another question. Having removed this infarction, your team has decided to replace that with a new one.
Again generic terms, inappropriate language/insulting others.
I gather this has got to do with my not supporting our fake Chinese TT team.
Since when does that become insulting? I did use the f word but not spelt in it's vulgar term.
Moreover it was F off from Singapore. Also not a direct vulgarity at the player or anyone else.

I note that many do not spell out vulgar words but use different spelling. It's everywhere. So how come mine is not permitted? Don't come and tell me it was because just after the loss very sensitive. Everyone has a right to not support and oppose such players representing us. I think it's fair to say that probably more than half our population do not support this policy of issuing citizenships to players who do not bother much about Singapore and are mercenaries to us.
 

IndianChief

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Ok noted.
Now to another question. Having removed this infarction, your team has decided to replace that with a new one.
Again generic terms, inappropriate language/insulting others.
I gather this has got to do with my not supporting our fake Chinese TT team.
Since when does that become insulting? I did use the f word but not spelt in it's vulgar term.
Moreover it was F off from Singapore. Also not a direct vulgarity at the player or anyone else.

I note that many do not spell out vulgar words but use different spelling. It's everywhere. So how come mine is not permitted? Don't come and tell me it was because just after the loss very sensitive. Everyone has a right to not support and oppose such players representing us. I think it's fair to say that probably more than half our population do not support this policy of issuing citizenships to players who do not bother much about Singapore and are mercenaries to us.

:s13::s13:

Whose giving out points for all these man...
 

Kumar22

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:s13::s13:

Whose giving out points for all these man...
I don't really care tbh. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Actually if they serious, I got an email from CID for a post made on the RVHS murder. They want to see that post which our mods went to delete.
Why go and delete instead of reporting it to the authorities?
 
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