Poems offering Amundi UT

[mr_beanz]

The commercial angle of this doesn't make sense. It's a loss maker to attract AUM... but what if people only buy the loss maker?? Lol everyone of the IBKR/VWRA (including me) fanbois are terrible clients for fund platform and brokerage alike.

If the majority of clients who shifted in because of Amundi MSCI index don't speculate and trade frequently then there is no legs to this arrangement period. It's imo the exact same reason why moomoo/tiger don't bother to offer LSE products, because they don't want to serve ucits ETFs buy and holders.

About moneyowl ... Don't read too much into the social enterprise angle la. Poems offer it cheap they just recommend some index funds. The level of sophistication is nothing. They didn't even launch the fund and we are stuck with POEMs ugly interface.

If you think recommending your friends to use IBKR is difficult, imagine getting them on POEMS LOL!

now what should I do with my 6 figure Amundi MSCI World holding on endowus....

When 100% sure that POEMS is indeed more cost-effective, the logical thing to do is to sell via Endowus and buy back quickly via POEMS. Cheers!

 

[s0crates]

Its different case for iShare one and I know there is no dividend and of course no dividend withholding, what about the Amundi one that we are talking about if you know?

The Amundi fund is a ucits fund. Read the quoted portion carefully.

Poems has physical branches. My elderly relative who are retired and plenty of time were happy to go down to their nearby Bukit Batok branch to open account and chit chat with the RM there. So far haven't been conned into buying ILP yet and I have convinced them to buy the LionGlobal All Seasons Fund (I tell them its LionGlobal is OCBC they feel reassured) Now I have to convince them to buy Amundi. Maybe I tell them its recommended by Temasek Trust....

If your friends are younger and internet savvy, the poems interface is no problem to use. If the friend is really so clueless about the poems website, then join the aunties and uncles and go down to physical branch....

Well moneyowl was owned by NTUC and they were forced to close down. People who are a bit discerning won't trust temsick track record...

When 100% sure that POEMS is indeed more cost-effective, the logical thing to do is to sell via Endowus and buy back quickly via POEMS. Cheers!

Yea, and risk the markets go up 4-5% during the period? I am happy to wait for a few months just to see whether POEMS carry on offering it.

There's a case of diminishing marginal returns with cost cutting leh. Last time I also considered the LGI All Seasons and also unit trust with 1+% TER for my SRS/CPF investing. The upside to saving is not so much so I want to minimise being out of market.

 

[CrashWire]

You are wrong.

Quote from Endowus

"Also, a fund using E-mini futures to replicate the S&P 500 index will not be subject to any dividend-withholding tax, because there are no dividends to be had. This means that the index fund using synthetic replication will benefit from an additional 15% of dividend values compared to UCITS ETFs, and an additional 30% when compared to UCITS unit trusts and US-domiciled ETFs."

https://endowus.com/insights/blackrock-ishares-passive-index-funds

The Endowus article isn't precise about why Amundi funds attract 30% dividend withholding rate compared to the Irish-domiciled index ETFs we know and love.

It's because:

1) Amundi funds are domiciled in Luxembourg;
2) Luxembourg has a MoU with the US to not apply their tax treaty to funds: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5054915#p5054915

 

[s0crates]

The Endowus article isn't precise about why Amundi funds attract 30% dividend withholding rate compared to the Irish-domiciled index ETFs we know and love.

It's because:

1) Amundi funds are domiciled in Luxembourg;
2) Luxembourg has a MoU with the US to not apply their tax treaty to funds: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5054915#p5054915

They told us the fact already, and they are not inclined to lie about this. So I thought it's a good enough evidence for captainwu

 

[limster]

Amundi MSCI World uses indirect replication. Its a synthetic fund. Therefore, it outperforms direct replication ETFs (the 1-year tracking error is 0.03%, a 'physical' ETF will have a larger error because of higher expense ratio and deductions for withholding tax). Amundi MSCI World does not pay withholding tax to the US govt on its MSCI World swaps.

I am happy to have part of my portfolio in synthetic ETFs. I also hold LSPU, which is Amundi's (previouly Lyxor) S&P500 ETF synthetic ETF. Zero withholding tax. But I also diversify and hold VUSD.

When it comes to synthetics, haters are gonna hate, please DYODD. All I will say that that even in the height of the GFC, all of these synthetic ETFs remained stable.

 

[s0crates]

Amundi MSCI World uses indirect replication. Its a synthetic fund. Therefore, it outperforms direct replication ETFs (the 1-year tracking error is 0.03%, a 'physical' ETF will have a larger error because of higher expense ratio and deductions for withholding tax). Amundi MSCI World does not pay withholding tax to the US govt on its MSCI World swaps.

I am happy to have part of my portfolio in synthetic ETFs. I also hold LSPU, which is Amundi's (previouly Lyxor) S&P500 ETF synthetic ETF. Zero withholding tax. But I also diversify and hold VUSD.

When it comes to synthetics, haters are gonna hate, please DYODD. All I will say that that even in the height of the GFC, all of these synthetic ETFs remained stable.

Where do you see that it is a sytnethtic fund?

https://endowus.com/investment-funds-list/amundi-index-msci-world-fund-LU2420245917

The Endowus interface shows stock holdings in its top 10 holdings, same for Amundi fund factsheets as well.

Fund fact sheet also says that it has 1409 holdings. Doesn't make sense

 

[limster]

same for Amundi fund factsheets as well.

Fund fact sheet also says that it has 1409 holdings. Doesn't make sense

The fund fact sheets starts with the header: Index Data. It is describing the MSCI World Index not the contents of the fund. Fund factsheets says there are 1409 counters in the MSCI World Benchmark, not that the fund is holding 1409 counters.

As to where to find that it is synthetic, just read the prospectus, link is on the endowus page you posted. To help you find it faster, pls open the prospectus and search 'indirect replication'.

 

[bearkia]

The fund fact sheets starts with the header: Index Data. It is describing the MSCI World Index not the contents of the fund. Fund factsheets says there are 1409 counters in the MSCI World Benchmark, not that the fund is holding 1409 counters.

As to where to find that it is synthetic, just read the prospectus, link is on the endowus page you posted. To help you find it faster, pls open the prospectus and search 'indirect replication'.

In the prospectus, there are multiple sub-funds of similar name. For example, 'Index MSCI World' and 'MSCI World', these two are different.

 

[limster]

In the prospectus, there are multiple sub-funds of similar name. For example, 'Index MSCI World' and 'MSCI World', these two are different.

thanks, i stand corrected, so Index MSCI World is direct replication but MSCI World is synthetic , and the one Endowus is selling is the Index MSCI World so direct replication. Very impressive they can achieve lower TER than Vanguard and iShares. Hope my order goes through without a hitch.

 

[blurpandasg2014]

She's quite a douchebag if POEMS is absolutely free; she got her original moneyowl clients to transfer to Ifast while now she's endorsing poems which has lower fee....

What the hell is going on? I don't know wtf she's doing.

She’s from NTUC

 

[Leaden]

Ya man like wtf 4.5% sales charge for RSP.. What's wrong with Poems..

Normal charge zero but RSP 4.5%, still think its a mistake but can only find out from them...

Just re-checked, looks like they updated their system. In the poems app, the RSP is now 0% sales charge.

 

[TheCoolDude89]

Just re-checked, looks like they updated their system. In the poems app, the RSP is now 0% sales charge.

In that case, it seems a very viable approach to buy through POEMS. Anyone can confirm it is moneyowl partnership with POEMS?

 

[mr_beanz]

According to a person who posted on a related reddit thread, ETFs (ie. ISAC, VWRA and IWDA) are much more efficient than unit trusts (ie, Amundi Index MSCI World).

Apart from the 15% reduced dividends tax which i know is probably true, i am unsure whether ISAC/ VWRA/ IWDA are really more efficient than Amundi Index MSCI World. Anyone able to provide more insights?

https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/s/pnS1yTkrF3

 

[Mephist0pheLes]

According to a person who posted on a related reddit thread, ETFs (ie. ISAC, VWRA and IWDA) are much more efficient than unit trusts (ie, Amundi Index MSCI World).

Apart from the 15% reduced dividends tax which i know is probably true, i am unsure whether ISAC/ VWRA/ IWDA are really more efficient than Amundi Index MSCI World. Anyone able to provide more insights?

https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/s/pnS1yTkrF3

For me, the main difference is that etf is easier to monitor its prices. And it's easier to do rebalancing (u can quickly sell one and buy another within a day). But these are jus very minor difference imo, not enough to sway me to switch from one to another

 

[yslvlys]

According to a person who posted on a related reddit thread, ETFs (ie. ISAC, VWRA and IWDA) are much more efficient than unit trusts (ie, Amundi Index MSCI World).

Apart from the 15% reduced dividends tax which i know is probably true, i am unsure whether ISAC/ VWRA/ IWDA are really more efficient than Amundi Index MSCI World. Anyone able to provide more insights?

https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/s/pnS1yTkrF3

Buying from Poems has no transaction fees like IBKR? Also the prices are not live, it is harder for the brokerage to front run you when u buy. Eg. Think some pple feedback before that RSP buy price from FSM always seems to be higher during that particular day.

 

[limster]

According to a person who posted on a related reddit thread, ETFs (ie. ISAC, VWRA and IWDA) are much more efficient than unit trusts (ie, Amundi Index MSCI World).

Apart from the 15% reduced dividends tax which i know is probably true, i am unsure whether ISAC/ VWRA/ IWDA are really more efficient than Amundi Index MSCI World. Anyone able to provide more insights?

https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/s/pnS1yTkrF3

If Amundi Index MSCI World is Physical/direct replication and domiciled in Luxembourg, thats a good point that it doesn't get the reduced WHT on US dividends that IE funds get. For World fund, since its not 100% US stocks, the impact of WHT might well balance out the lower expense ratio and no need to change forex.

For S&P500, where getting the 'best' WHT matters, synthetic ETFs like Amundi LSPU with 0% WHT and 0.05% expense ratio could be an option. I am vested. about half of my S&P500 holdings is in LSPU, half in Vanguard VUSD: https://www.amundietf.co.uk/en/indi...ndi-sp-500-ii-ucits-etf-usd-dist/lu0496786657

Finally, for reference, the closest thing I could find on FSMOne is the Vanguard IE fund for FSM+ members. 0.1% expense ratio and Ireland domiciled.

 

[s0crates]

Buying from Poems has no transaction fees like IBKR? Also the prices are not live, it is harder for the brokerage to front run you when u buy. Eg. Think some pple feedback before that RSP buy price from FSM always seems to be higher during that particular day.

It's really quite funny that some other hwz folks has a totally different view on this. They accused UT platforms of profiting from clients by discretionarily going into the market slower. My view is the same as you - ETF trade execution is dodgier and payment for order flow is an actual well documented conflict of interest.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/2024-market-sentiment-positioning.6964379/post-154333996

 

[CrashWire]

It's really quite funny that some other hwz folks has a totally different view on this. They accused UT platforms of profiting from clients by discretionarily going into the market slower. My view is the same as you - ETF trade execution is dodgier and payment for order flow is an actual well documented conflict of interest.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/2024-market-sentiment-positioning.6964379/post-154333996

I agree with that thread that Endowus doesn't seem to be transparent enough with their order timing though, or how long it takes to process cash deposits even. It's one reason I generally avoid roboadvisors.

DBS and most other banks that sell unit trusts actually display upfront in their online banking when the trade execution date is, as well as the cutoff time for buying/selling. Endowus doesn't.

 

[Mephist0pheLes]

I agree with that thread that Endowus doesn't seem to be transparent enough with their order timing though, or how long it takes to process cash deposits even. It's one reason I generally avoid roboadvisors.

DBS and most other banks that sell unit trusts actually display upfront in their online banking when the trade execution date is, as well as the cutoff time for buying/selling. Endowus doesn't.

Isnt the date of trade in the activity page? There's no time tho, not sure how impt that is since the price is the same for the day regardless of time.

 

[s0crates]

I agree with that thread that Endowus doesn't seem to be transparent enough with their order timing though, or how long it takes to process cash deposits even. It's one reason I generally avoid roboadvisors.

DBS and most other banks that sell unit trusts actually display upfront in their online banking when the trade execution date is, as well as the cutoff time for buying/selling. Endowus doesn't.

It's there. You just didn't see it.

I don't think you know how UT trades work relative ETF. If you really don't trust the UT platform to execute the trades for you, don't buy UT. Neither the UT platform nor the fund manager know the execution price at the point of trade order.

If people just assume the platform is cheating you without investigating/asking them, what for use them?