psychology of trading

DevilPlate

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I've seen this term 'life-changing' money used quite a bit, I wonder when people use this term, is there a specific target % (eg: double your networth) or is it a specific $ value ($1m, $10m, $100m?)

I am not sure how much money would be "life-changing" for me. Between 2016-2022 I have tripled my passive income but my life is sort of the same with a few lifestyle 'improvements' - I have been spending a little bit more on items like healthier food, etc.

If I can increase my passive income steadily at an average of 10% a year for the next 8 years, that will be a doubling of my passive income... I think that's a decent target but I don't consider it a 'life-changing target'... I guess I don't have the ambition and desire that makes a good trader. 😅
Life changing imo from 10k to 2M liquid asset

when one have achieved more than 2M networth excluding primary residence…..anything more do not really make your life any better.

 

stanlawj

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Catch no ball….thought we are discussing about trading as per the topic.
are you saying hybrid? Investor cum trader?
Yes. I do both. The differences are the time frame of holding, % allocation of portfolio and type of financial instrument.
 
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peterchan75

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The marshmallow experiment, kids who focused away from away from the marshmallow were able to resist the temptation of eating it.


There is no one single method of winning the market.


Focus of the process and not the money. Have an open mindset and flexible and open to new idea. The market is fractal in nature and it's both random and pattern.
 

wtaps300

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Yes. I do both. The differences are the time frame of holding, % allocation of portfolio and type of financial instrument.
I have a friend who trades solely on his own money. More than a decade ago he squirreled his profits into SG REITs and other stocks and now he is very very comfy, so there go go
 

wtaps300

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I will continue to post articles for beginners here. What are the things to watch out for, the basics etc. Hope it is useful for those who is just starting out their way.

Not that I am a master sifu already. It just that when I started i made many mistakes, and I am just gonna list them here to save everyone's time. and Money. so here's to our survival!

Basics: Why is Trading Difficult


I will attempt to describe and highlight a greater obstacle to success in the financial markets. The answer: it is us, ourselves, or rather, our natural inclinations when we trade and invest, that is the greatest obstacle to success.

Consider this: the great Japanese private trader CIS, who has amassed a personal fortune of more than USD 150m in more than 10 years trading his own account. When asked about what what was his secret, he had this simple answer:

"Buy stocks that are being bought, and sell stocks that are being sold".

I am guessing some of you may be smirking after reading this. But CIS is not alone in saying this. The great Paul Tudor Jones had said something similar: " your job is to buy what goes up and sell what goes down". I may be paraphrasing. But it is really as simple as that. But is it that easy to do so in reality?

If we take a moment now and reflect on our trading or investment decisions. Think of the number of times we have thought to ourselves: the prices have gone up too far, let's wait for the correction before we buy. And then only to watch those stocks go up higher and higher. And those times that we think to ourselves, well these other stocks haven't moved yet, let's buy these laggards. And only to watch these laggards continue to languish, while those that are moving higher continue to make new highs?

Why can’t we simply buy the stocks that are moving higher?

Sometimes, in trading or in investments, the rules are very simple to express, but very hard to follow. A little bit like this other thing called life. But what is stopping us? Because what we are trying to do is, for lack of a better word, counter-intuitive.

Take for example, let's say, we are buying toilet paper, or fish fillets. We like to wait for a sale, and we are always looking to buy the cheapest. In fact, as the stores offer more discounts, we will end up buying more toilet paper, and fish fillets. This is very natural. But if we do the same in financial markets, this behavior, or habit, will kill us.

Incidentally, Tom Hougaard in his excellent book " Best Losers Win" uses the toilet paper example to explain our natural urges. It is a very good book that gives practical advice on how to develop the right mindset to trading the markets. I highly recommend it.

So how do we go about to overcome this obstacle? For a start, one must be aware of such self-defeating tendencies. Next, we can modify our approach, or develop new rules to be incorporated into our trading plans to counteract such inclinations. All in all, I urge those of you who have just started your trading and investment journey, besides learning the how-to, the technical indicators, getting understand the fundamentals and etc, please spend some time studying your own natural inclinations, urges, emotions when you make those investment/trading decisions. Start a journal, do post trade analysis, meditate, do yoga, contemplate or whatever. The earlier you incorporate this self-analysis, especially with respect to your emotions and natural inclinations, the quicker you will be on the right path.

So til then.
 

stanlawj

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"Buy stocks that are being bought, and sell stocks that are being sold".
The reality is more nuanced than just that.

After many years of trading and investing, I come to the conclusion that alpha (excess return above benchmark) is generated from being able to making prediction/forecasts with reasonable high probability while managing downside risks tightly as part of monitoring the investments/positions post-purchase.

"Buy stocks that are being bought, and sell stocks that are being sold"
OR
"Buy high, sell higher"
OR
"Be dumb, follow price"

are just herding/momo behaviours, that doesn't result in alpha. These are hindsight observations. All investments that made money, definitely fulfilled those rules. But not all your investments that you make will follow: i.e. the laws of probability gathered from history, does not predict the outcome for the future of your actions, because the probabilities can change due to changes in conditions/assumptions. You have to know what are the assumptions and then also ensure the assumptions are also kept true in the future.

Here's an example where this rule will massacre all the momo bull traders:
CRDO (Credo Technology, fabless semicon design firm): Drop 40% after hours today.

Since there are too many unknown assumptions needed to be true to make money following "Buy stocks that are being bought, and sell stocks that are being sold" that I would say, ignore such a rule for buying investments or long positions, and only use it as a post-purchase check guide.
 
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wtaps300

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The reality is more nuanced than just that.
rightly said .. I have a simple rule not to chase if prices are far from MA on the trending side.

but what I was trying to convey. Is that we usually have this inclination to go " countertrend". Buy when cheap. Buy more when cheaper. And because of certain natural behavioral traits we then refuse to cut loss.

Or when a price is running, we tend to take our gains quicker. Its very natural.

And when we do this two things, in the longer term, we tend to lose more than we make, Or worse, refusing to cut loss and increasing positions (especially when playing with leverage), eventually we will go bust. How many times in our career have we seen a small loss starting to balloon into a big one?

That was what i am trying to convey. Especially if you are playing with leverage, in the case of futures, it is always better to bet with the trend, then against it.

Hope this help to clarify.
 

stanlawj

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but what I was trying to convey. Is that we usually have this inclination to go " countertrend". Buy when cheap. Buy more when cheaper. And because of certain natural behavioral traits we then refuse to cut loss.
Assuming the price is statistically fluctuating between (daily mean - 2 sd) < daily mean < (daily mean + 2sd)
You want to buy at the price (daily mean - 2sd) as the weekly mean is trending higher for long positions.
I hope you can see that I am countertrending at the lower time frame (intraday) to get the tightest stop loss margin.

So that is why, I think those rules confuse ppl. I can countertrend on lower time frame and while still following the trend on higher time frame. Usually this results in the very tight stop losses.

Normally, we wouldn't be saying countertrending in my example because I'm still trendfollowing on weekly time frame, but that is the source of one of my confusions early on in trading because the timeframe needs to be taken into account.

Also investors buying the dip that gets lower and lower are also being criticised by traders,... there is nothing wrong with this practice, because the time frame is different. Investor is looking at long term (monthly, yearly), but trader is looking at shorter term (daily/weekly). What should be criticised is the absence of stop loss management or absence of portfolio hedging.
 
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wtaps300

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So that is why, I think those rules confuse ppl. I can countertrend on lower time frame and while still following the trend on higher time frame. Usually this results in the very tight stop losses.
thats the danger of trying to write a general help on trading. but w ecan both agree on the broader picture better to go with the trend. of which we won't know in advance so our methodology must factor in that.

i am curious though, are you using some sort of market profile in your methodology?
 

zzTiny

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Buy low sell high lah. Use some earnings, use appropriate valuation, estimate how high you willing to pay. See see if realistic or not, can continue to pay more or not. :o

Is like... A market, shopping, gaigai, choose wife. Your wife nice or not?

Selling is still the difficult part for me...sad
 

theMKR

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Actually I heard this phrase many times:
"No one got rich from trading and/or investing ever."

how true is this?

The majority of rich traders/investors were already rich before they started trading/investing.
Otherwise they got rich by faciliting the trading/investing (hedge fund/brokerage)

what is a good lifetime returns?
but then again, what is the point if you x10 your money when you are in your 80s :s22:
 

wtaps300

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Actually I heard this phrase many times:
"No one got rich from trading and/or investing ever."
This discussion getting lively.

Do trading/investing die one/went crazy one i don't want to say. Those make it one, don't count robert kuok or peter lim. Ordinary people.

1. I know one humble normal guy no rich parents, invested/traded. House moved from Punggol to Mountbatten one, retired by mid 30s, now still investing I met one. During S chips huat.

2. I know one working guy, as far as I know, doesn't come from money. Work long with a global broker, then invest invest. His filing i saw got many thick files. And after that never work never part time nothing.

3. Two guys in KL, my kakis. One trade trade got money buy properties do business and invest in SG REITs. now retired. still trading, mainly sell options for rent. but semi-retired, make it liao. The other trade trade later do business liao. Like good friend with certain chief ministers type. Got. Not mr soh nor mr lau,

4. Another woman, Global broker/foreign house, Work and invest. House from Meyer Road til bukit timah type. retired. Got. But she invest quite hiong.

5. Then of course, have you guys heard of the A Team? they do 1/2 broke business then S chips then property now have sentosa as weekend houses one. also got.

6. One local broker, in his 30s appeared on tv type, met him in some .. questionable hotel bat lounge. now also made it tour the world type.

then of course those try many year still struggling still waiting for payout package from boss and here typing, I also know one - you know who ah.

so yeah actually got lah, find the right method for you. be discipline. modify tour behaviour, is can do one, but long haul ah.

6.
 

theMKR

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This discussion getting lively.

Do trading/investing die one/went crazy one i don't want to say. Those make it one, don't count robert kuok or peter lim. Ordinary people.

1. I know one humble normal guy no rich parents, invested/traded. House moved from Punggol to Mountbatten one, retired by mid 30s, now still investing I met one. During S chips huat.

2. I know one working guy, as far as I know, doesn't come from money. Work long with a global broker, then invest invest. His filing i saw got many thick files. And after that never work never part time nothing.

3. Two guys in KL, my kakis. One trade trade got money buy properties do business and invest in SG REITs. now retired. still trading, mainly sell options for rent. but semi-retired, make it liao. The other trade trade later do business liao. Like good friend with certain chief ministers type. Got. Not mr soh nor mr lau,

4. Another woman, Global broker/foreign house, Work and invest. House from Meyer Road til bukit timah type. retired. Got. But she invest quite hiong.

5. Then of course, have you guys heard of the A Team? they do 1/2 broke business then S chips then property now have sentosa as weekend houses one. also got.

6. One local broker, in his 30s appeared on tv type, met him in some .. questionable hotel bat lounge. now also made it tour the world type.

then of course those try many year still struggling still waiting for payout package from boss and here typing, I also know one - you know who ah.

so yeah actually got lah, find the right method for you. be discipline. modify tour behaviour, is can do one, but long haul ah.

6.
you see, in your examples. many ppl made their money from facilitating trade.

made their money, then later got into trading.

except for the 1st guy.

a punggol hdb cost 300k , mountbatten detached even a small one would be 9m at least (precovid prices)

that would be like 30x returns on his entire networth. but since one cannot invest in their entire networth, assuming 1/3 of it is used. that would be 90x returns over a few years.

he would have beaten all the "legendary" traders out there....
 

wtaps300

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the two KL traders trade their own monies lah ... at one stage apparently they accounted for 1/3 of KLCI futures vol, vs the big institutional boys :)
 

theMKR

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the two KL traders trade their own monies lah ... at one stage apparently they accounted for 1/3 of KLCI futures vol, vs the big institutional boys :)
the phrase is not saying you cant get rich trading your own money.

but rather: "No one GOT rich from trading and/or investing ever"

so assuming a normal folk earns a median wage, live modesty. saved up 50k.

to get to 5m, he would need a return of 100x. maybe possible in the crypto world, but for conventional vehicles?
 
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stanlawj

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i am curious though, are you using some sort of market profile in your methodology?
What is market profile? If its following technical trading, then I just use volume profile. No interest in the small moves, high leverage in day trading. My day trading is only for small profit/income while waiting for major signals to trigger in the longer time frame.
The majority of rich traders/investors were already rich before they started trading/investing.
Otherwise they got rich by faciliting the trading/investing (hedge fund/brokerage)
I think you confused capital vs profit.

Of course need to start with some capital. Some start with less, others more. I earn my capital from my job.

But at the end of the day, how many X times through the market alone?

Just take Peter Lim and Chicken Genius as examples. They all more than 10X their initial capital. Adam Khoo side also have traders who more than 10X through crypto.
We also have Master Leong who made mistakes and show us how it can fail, so the information to 10X profit is available, either free or paid.
 
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theMKR

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What is market profile? If its following technical trading, then I just use volume profile. No interest in the small moves, high leverage in day trading. My day trading is only for small profit/income while waiting for major signals to trigger in the longer time frame.

I think you confused capital vs profit.

Of course need to start with some capital. Some start with less, others more. I earn my capital from my job.

But at the end of the day, how many X times through the market alone?

Just take Peter Lim and Chicken Genius as examples. They all more than 10X their initial capital. Adam Khoo side also have traders who more than 10X through crypto.
i think peter lim help other ppl to invest their money also?

CG is legend sia, he got like 8m usd? at his age he would have 100x his capital already....
 

stanlawj

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i think peter lim help other ppl to invest their money also?

CG is legend sia, he got like 8m usd? at his age he would have 100x his capital already....
Read carefully about Peter Lim before Wilmar. He was a remisier/stockbroker, which means he is actually a trader. Remisier/stockbroker definitely will trade the market. Just like property agents also buy, flip & rent properties!
https://sybershel.com/peter-lim-billionaire-thanks-to-palm-oil/His best trade/investment was Wilmar, and he also averaged down into a crash for Wilmar. Chandler Brothers also averaged down in their Japanese stock during the crash and emerged multibagger.

Contrast with Master Leong who also tried to averaged down Alibaba in a crash. Opposite outcome.

There's lesson to be learnt here, and it is not found in chart, which is why technical traders who just analyse charts are not among the billionaires.
 
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theMKR

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Read carefully about Peter Lim before Wilmar. He was a remisier/stockbroker, which means he is actually a trader. His best trade/investment was Wilmar, and note he also averaged down into a crash for Wilmar. Chandler Brothers also averaged down in their Japanese stock during the crash and emerged multibagger.

Contrast with Master Leong who also tried to averaged down Alibaba in a crash. Opposite outcome.

There's lesson to be learnt here, and it is not found in chart, which is why technical traders who just analyse charts are not among the billionaires.
actually i dun study so much about history, because dyanmics has changed.

anyone who bought anything in the past would be a multi bagger, including subsidised housing.

i prefer to study recent cases, like kelwin and chicken genius....
 
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