The university graduate today is worse off than the ITE graduate of the past !

[bluerhino]

They all are. For now, PAP is dong the bulk of it.

I mean if you feel comfortable with his behaviour then by all means continue to vote for him. The irony is the opposition supporters calling pap supporters daft

 

[Linguist]

*dear pap supporters, should anything be 95 times a graduates salary ? If no then stop justifying

*no matter how hard pap try to justify, 2025 degree holder should not lose to 1979 ITE!

PAP ibs accuse LMW of cherry picking. But they conveniently ignored LMW used the cheapest BTO prices yet it's 95 times the graduates income

If we compared using resale prices or THE RECORD BREAKING BTO AMK 877k (yes it exist) EVEN 200 times the income also I won't be surprised



Leong Mun Wai : "Based on housing affordability, the median university graduate today is worse off than the median ITE graduate in the late 1970s and early 1980s."

He added that despite an "education arms race", university graduates today can only afford "smaller and more expensive flats than what an ITE graduate could have bought 45 years ago".

He further stated, "The prospects are even dimmer" for those without a degree are even dimmer for those without a degree"

In 1979:

• Degree median starting salary was S$957 per month
• An NTC-3 graduate from VITB (now ITE) earned S$633 monthly
• BUT new four-room flat in new towns cost only $27k

HDB price was ONLY equivalent to:

• 28 times a university graduate's median starting salary
• 43 times a VITB graduate's median starting salary

BUT By 2024:

• Degree median starting salary increased to S$4,500 monthly
• The cheapest four-room BTO flat cost S$290,000 (excluding grants)
• The cheapest five-room BTO flat was priced at S$427,000

HDB price was equivalent to:

• 64 times Degree holder median starting salary for a four-room flat
• 95 times Degree holder median starting salary for a five-room flat

That's why let's hope karma befall on the 60% fast and furious...

Kym?

 

[parchiao]

I mean if you feel comfortable with his behaviour then by all means continue to vote for him. The irony is the opposition supporters calling pap supporters daft

I actually have a higher probability of voting for PAP than for LMW. Because PAP will be campaigning for my votes, and LMW will not. Because I do not live in the west part of Singapore. As such, there is 0% chance for me to vote for LMW.

The thing you need to understand is that PAP has been talking down to us and have been giving us half truths (not lies, just not the whole truth) for so long, now if I see someone do it back to PAP, I will LOL. That is all.

 

[yesman2978]

You can continue to be affected by it. Fact is if you are not 25% of your cohort now then I teleport you back to 45 years ago you also cannot get in to ite. So what if they have it easier? Not like you can enjoy it anyway.

That's a false assumption

Got plenty of pg mg relatives who are certainly nowhere in the top 70%, whether by education or profession, who led higher living standards than their children.

Those pg mg folks barely have education, some didn't even complete primary school. The jobs they held also very blue-collar, nothing outstanding. Taxi drivers, hawkers, admin clerks, technicians. Can afford to pay off 4rm, 5rm in estates like queenstown, Bukit Merah, Toa Payoh in 10 years, with 1 income. And supporting many children also.

Their children despite having higher education than them, live in smaller houses, or have to move far away to ulu towns. Among those that got married, only can afford 1 or 2 children.

 

[Eliwood]

May I know what data has been provided?

Citizen vs non citizen median income.

 

[orwell76]

That's a false assumption

Got plenty of pg mg relatives who are certainly nowhere in the top 70%, whether by education or profession, who led higher living standards than their children.

Those pg mg folks barely have education, some didn't even complete primary school. The jobs they held also very blue-collar, nothing outstanding. Taxi drivers, hawkers, admin clerks, technicians. Can afford to pay off 4rm, 5rm in estates like queenstown, Bukit Merah, Toa Payoh in 10 years, with 1 income. And supporting many children also.

Their children despite having higher education than them, live in smaller houses, or have to move far away to ulu towns. Among those that got married, only can afford 1 or 2 children.

Style of progress giving you less for higher price

 

[bluerhino]

That's a false assumption

Got plenty of pg mg relatives who are certainly nowhere in the top 70%, whether by education or profession, who led higher living standards than their children.

Those pg mg folks barely have education, some didn't even complete primary school. The jobs they held also very blue-collar, nothing outstanding. Taxi drivers, hawkers, admin clerks, technicians. Can afford to pay off 4rm, 5rm in estates like queenstown, Bukit Merah, Toa Payoh in 10 years, with 1 income. And supporting many children also.

Their children despite having higher education than them, live in smaller houses, or have to move far away to ulu towns. Among those that got married, only can afford 1 or 2 children.

Maybe you back it with some number. How much does a taxi driver from 40 years ago earn a month? Is it true that it was easier for them to pay for house or is it your assumption? If you earn 5k but pay 2.5k for the house you still will not starve and 30 years later the house is yours. Your grandkids might think it was easy back in the day that on 5k salary you can easily afford a house but is it true? I can’t speak for the rest but I saw how much sacrifices my parents had to go through to have a house and raise 2 kids. We never went on overseas holidays and seldom ate out. Whitegoods at home will try to use as long as possible and try to repair when breakdown. And my parents are I would consider better than middle class. Compare to typical lifestyle of a family with kids nowadays going on biannual holidays, eating out every weekend, only blinking when buying a new iPad and iPhone, you’re telling me that they have it better?

 

[sciprof]

I uni grad also work in factory so ya..uni grad now is macham like ite certs

 

[yesman2978]

Maybe you back it with some number. How much does a taxi driver from 40 years ago earn a month? Is it true that it was easier for them to pay for house or is it your assumption? If you earn 5k but pay 2.5k for the house you still will not starve and 30 years later the house is yours. Your grandkids might think it was easy back in the day that on 5k salary you can easily afford a house but is it true? I can’t speak for the rest but I saw how much sacrifices my parents had to go through to have a house and raise 2 kids. We never went on overseas holidays and seldom ate out. Whitegoods at home will try to use as long as possible and try to repair when breakdown. And my parents are I would consider better than middle class. Compare to typical lifestyle of a family with kids nowadays going on biannual holidays, eating out every weekend, only blinking when buying a new iPad and iPhone, you’re telling me that they have it better?

Prices of things have also changed a lot hor. And should not conflate technological progress with affluence (because even broke 3rd world countries also have smartphones).

Last time you want to fly anywhere, is all full service airline, at expensive prices. Anything outside southeast asia, return tickets minimally more than $1k. $2k to be realistic.

Now, plenty of budget airlines. Go places like europe and japan can also find cheap tickets. Go japan can find return tickets for a few hundreds.

As for repairs, even if you want to nowadays, who would even want to repair your spoilt electrical appliances? Last time got repairmen for CRT TVs, washing machine, fridge. Now, who can/will repair your LED TVs etc?

Even if can repair, economical or not?

 

[bluerhino]

Prices of things have also changed a lot hor. And should not conflate technological progress with affluence (because even broke 3rd world countries also have smartphones).

Last time you want to fly anywhere, is all full service airline, at expensive prices. Anything outside southeast asia, return tickets minimally more than $1k. $2k to be realistic.

Now, plenty of budget airlines. Go places like europe and japan can also find cheap tickets. Go japan can find return tickets for a few hundreds.

As for repairs, even if you want to nowadays, who would even want to repair your spoilt electrical appliances? Last time got repairmen for CRT TVs, washing machine, fridge. Now, who can/will repair your LED TVs etc?

Even if can repair, economical or not?

So you are saying singstat data is fake? Inflation is actually higher than income growth? How do you prove It? It’s very easy to say last time even taxi driver have no problem paying for hdb on single income easily.

 

[yesman2978]

So you are saying singstat data is fake? Inflation is actually higher than income growth? How do you prove It? It’s very easy to say last time even taxi driver have no problem paying for hdb on single income easily.

So you also saying the salary info and hdb flat price info that LMW cited (which are derived from singstat data anyway) are fake?

In 1987, can buy 4rm flat for $30k. A bowl of noodles back then is around $1.50-$2.
Now noodles $4-5. 4rm flat cost how much?
How much due to increased material and labour cost for constructing flats? How much of the current cost go to land?

Flats in the past were priced to recover cost nia. Desmond Lee ownself said de.

“From 1968 to 1987, in the early years of HDB, we sold flats to Singaporeans and the flat price was fixed to recover costs. So, this most resembles PSP’s Affordable Housing Scheme (AHS),” he said.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...are-worse-today-housing-affordability-4984621

 

[TrollAndOgres]

Actually quite true. Rast time my father bo tak chek came sg to work, and my mum was sec sch educated and just sometimes working sometimes not. Between them bringing up 2 kids they also managed to pay for a 4 room flat. They were low-average income then, so i think o level grads or even ite grads in 80s will be similar or higher in spending power as grads now

 

[Orphan]

*dear pap supporters, should anything be 95 times a graduates salary ? If no then stop justifying

*no matter how hard pap try to justify, 2025 degree holder should not lose to 1979 ITE!

PAP ibs accuse LMW of cherry picking. But they conveniently ignored LMW used the cheapest BTO prices yet it's 95 times the graduates income

If we compared using resale prices or THE RECORD BREAKING BTO AMK 877k (yes it exist) EVEN 200 times the income also I won't be surprised



Leong Mun Wai : "Based on housing affordability, the median university graduate today is worse off than the median ITE graduate in the late 1970s and early 1980s."

He added that despite an "education arms race", university graduates today can only afford "smaller and more expensive flats than what an ITE graduate could have bought 45 years ago".

He further stated, "The prospects are even dimmer" for those without a degree are even dimmer for those without a degree"

In 1979:

• Degree median starting salary was S$957 per month
• An NTC-3 graduate from VITB (now ITE) earned S$633 monthly
• BUT new four-room flat in new towns cost only $27k

HDB price was ONLY equivalent to:

• 28 times a university graduate's median starting salary
• 43 times a VITB graduate's median starting salary

BUT By 2024:

• Degree median starting salary increased to S$4,500 monthly
• The cheapest four-room BTO flat cost S$290,000 (excluding grants)
• The cheapest five-room BTO flat was priced at S$427,000

HDB price was equivalent to:

• 64 times Degree holder median starting salary for a four-room flat
• 95 times Degree holder median starting salary for a five-room flat

While I really am against how they add land cost to HDB, it has always been the case where property prices outpace median salary growth. So the comparison like this is a bit unfair.



The 2024 HDB apartment itself, BTO options, amenities are also no longer the spartan designs like their 1970 cousins.

This is a 4 room flat in 1970s Toa Payoh

This is Pinnacle @ Duxton back in 2009 (mixed 4 room and 5 room)

Of salaries and educational levels, in the 1970s - early 1980s era, for normal families, Sec 4 or Form 5 is considered rare and sibei educated leow. Management level. More satki than today's Uni grads, which is a dime a dozen.

Dream job is to become cai-hu (government office worker/clerk), work in aircon office.

Can go ITE/Poly is even more tokong than having Form 5 education. Uni grad is like the village 状元, on par with doctors and lawyers.

People were not rich then, so being able to send a child to Uni means that the family is considered well off.

1970s-1980s Singapore river still had barges, godowns along the river all the way to Havelock road, a lot of laborers with low or zero education (no longer called coolies) slogging under the hot sun to unload the goods.

My mother's era would say "5 cent bigger than bullock cart". My grandma's era would say "Like that only? My time 1 cent bigger than bullock cart".

 

[junlove]

Maybe you back it with some number. How much does a taxi driver from 40 years ago earn a month? Is it true that it was easier for them to pay for house or is it your assumption? If you earn 5k but pay 2.5k for the house you still will not starve and 30 years later the house is yours. Your grandkids might think it was easy back in the day that on 5k salary you can easily afford a house but is it true? I can’t speak for the rest but I saw how much sacrifices my parents had to go through to have a house and raise 2 kids. We never went on overseas holidays and seldom ate out. Whitegoods at home will try to use as long as possible and try to repair when breakdown. And my parents are I would consider better than middle class. Compare to typical lifestyle of a family with kids nowadays going on biannual holidays, eating out every weekend, only blinking when buying a new iPad and iPhone, you’re telling me that they have it better?

cannot compare like that. Different types of goods behave different in the supply/demand/cost curves.

My dad's first motorola 'brick phone' cost 2 times his monthly pay leh. My first computer PC i built myself, also like more than his mth pay. then along the years, some goods got cheaper, some turn up more exp again, due to being better (the iPhone today cannot compare to the motorola right?)

in reality, quality and quantity of GOODS and SERVICES improved and increased over the years, in a way, WEALTH PIE gets bigger. As such, it is only natural that the people get to 'use/enjoy' more of it compared to the past.

the issue is the productivity vs rewards ratio. how the wealth pie gets distributed along the curve from the poor to the rich. so you have to look at income levels, savings rate and cost of living as a percentage of income, inflation adjusted. Personally, to me, many assets/goods/services are palatable as a % to the above, EXCEPT - housing prices, not looking good atm.

in a perfect world, by right productivity increased, wealth increased, we should work less and retire earlier, but is that happening? why not? because the distribution is not perfectly aligned, and will never be as long humans are selfish. That's why it's the govt's role is to 'redistribute' to prevent runaway inequality (welfare, taxes etc)

 

[bluerhino]

So you also saying the salary info and hdb flat price info that LMW cited (which are derived from singstat data anyway) are fake?

In 1987, can buy 4rm flat for $30k. A bowl of noodles back then is around $1.50-$2.
Now noodles $4-5. 4rm flat cost how much?
How much due to increased material and labour cost for constructing flats? How much of the current cost go to land?

Flats in the past were priced to recover cost nia. Desmond Lee ownself said de.

“From 1968 to 1987, in the early years of HDB, we sold flats to Singaporeans and the flat price was fixed to recover costs. So, this most resembles PSP’s Affordable Housing Scheme (AHS),” he said.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...are-worse-today-housing-affordability-4984621

I already type why his argument is warped so many times in this thread. Can’t believe past another day another person come and try to say he is correct. You go find my previous post sua. Lazy type out again for people like you.

No need quote wanton mee price. CPI got breakdown food price index over last few decades. You can use the CPI number to make your argument. You like that anyhow want to say wanton mee cost 0.50 or 1.50 or 2.50 also no one can verify is real or not. Maybe this is oppo way of making argument. Have data don’t want to use or anyhow use.

 

[dontwastetime]

So you are saying singstat data is fake? Inflation is actually higher than income growth? How do you prove It? It’s very easy to say last time even taxi driver have no problem paying for hdb on single income easily.

Singstat inflation dare not include property inflation. Whatever reasons they give, u cannot deny housing is a huge burden caused by pap under building HDB and over population​

 

[kingsfall]

to make matters worse, a lot of price setters in the market today

where does all the money come from ?

From all the 25 years loan… people being too overly indebted to own a home

 

[bluerhino]

Singstat inflation dare not include property inflation. Whatever reasons they give, u cannot deny housing is a huge burden caused by pap under building HDB and over population​

There is such a thing as HDB price index. Please lah it doesn’t take much effort to get a relevant data source. No need to rely on grandfather stories to justify that now housing not affordable.

Also CPI includes imputed rental instead of market prices of housing. Since if you already owned a house you are not using your salary to keep buying a new house at market price. I see how you try to twist facts again and hide info. Just like LMW.

 

[yesman2978]

I already type why his argument is warped so many times in this thread. Can’t believe past another day another person come and try to say he is correct. You go find my previous post sua. Lazy type out again for people like you.

No need quote wanton mee price. CPI got breakdown food price index over last few decades. You can use the CPI number to make your argument. You like that anyhow want to say wanton mee cost 0.50 or 1.50 or 2.50 also no one can verify is real or not. Maybe this is oppo way of making argument. Have data don’t want to use or anyhow use.

Those who lived through, will know.

I don't need to refer to food index, to remember that the price of my kopi o kosong has risen from $0.50 to $1.50 at the coffeeshop that I have frequented for decades.

I don't need to refer to historical price record, to notice shrinkflation, that 1L cartons of milk, juices, have shrunk to odd sizes like 946ml, 950ml.

Don't even need to go so far back. Just recall the past few years can liao, compare pre covid prices with prices today.

I don't need to refer to singstats data to tell me that I could get a dish and drink for $5 in a coffeeshop precovid, and now I would be lucky if there's dishes below $5.

I don't need data to tell me that my $5 lunch had evolved over the past 10 years. From:
2meat 1 veg caipng + kopi c peng
become
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi peng
Then
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi o peng
To
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi o kosong peng
To
1 meat 2 veg caipng + kopi o kosong

And this is just for food.

Don't need singstats to tell me that inflation has worsen. Just look at bank balance can liao. Moi is BBFA no change in lifestyle (in fact going in reverse, living more and more simpler lifestyle), if rise in income outpace or matched inflation, should see savings growing at higher or constant rate. But each year I find my savings rising more slowly, saving less and less. Why ah?

There's a reason why throngs of sinkies are spending their 3.3:1 in JB every weekend.

 

[Eliwood]

Those who lived through, will know.

I don't need to refer to food index, to remember that the price of my kopi o kosong has risen from $0.50 to $1.50 at the coffeeshop that I have frequented for decades.

I don't need to refer to historical price record, to notice shrinkflation, that 1L cartons of milk, juices, have shrunk to odd sizes like 946ml, 950ml.

Don't even need to go so far back. Just recall the past few years can liao, compare pre covid prices with prices today.

I don't need to refer to singstats data to tell me that I could get a dish and drink for $5 in a coffeeshop precovid, and now I would be lucky if there's dishes below $5.

I don't need data to tell me that my $5 lunch had evolved over the past 10 years. From:
2meat 1 veg caipng + kopi c peng
become
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi peng
Then
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi o peng
To
2 meat 1 veg caipng + kopi o kosong peng
To
1 meat 2 veg caipng + kopi o kosong

And this is just for food.

Don't need singstats to tell me that inflation has worsen. Just look at bank balance can liao. Moi is BBFA no change in lifestyle (in fact going in reverse, living more and more simpler lifestyle), if rise in income outpace or matched inflation, should see savings growing at higher or constant rate. But each year I find my savings rising more slowly, saving less and less. Why ah?

There's a reason why throngs of sinkies are spending their 3.3:1 in JB every weekend.

This is the power of compounding and inflation. 3% inflation over 25 years means price will more than double (since u mentioned decades).

The reason u r facing difficulty is likely that your income did not keep pace with inflation unlike other ppl, or you did not plan your finances adequately (e.g. invest to ensure ur saving return keep pace with inflation).