Upcoming R2R DAC: Schitt Yggdrasil

Questor

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The key is to minimise electrical noise from the pc. I have also tried emi asborbing material. All theses are small increments to get better sound out of the dac

Agree, but it's on how this is manged. For instance, selecting components with lower electrical noise is better than trying to fix it with EMI absorbing materials.. actually my experience with these products are no good. Although the noise floor seems lower, it also seem to absorb some of the 'good stuff'. :) Just IMO.
 

dqwong

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You are correct. Tweak can have detrimental effect to sound quality if applied incorrectly.

But if you find a good tweak, it will be quite surprisingly good improvement
 

dqwong

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Interesting stuff I found on headfi chord hugo thread:
cpT0gqt.jpg



http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=45330049442#
 

Murcielago

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I've been listening to the HD800 today, and I found that the position of the driver and earpads relative to your ear will make a SIGNIFICANT difference to what you hear.

When you first put on the HD800, the natural tendency is to wear it with your ears in the center, with the earpads surrounding your ears. The problem with this is that your ears will be too close to the drivers, and there isn't enough space for the bass to develop. Hence, the sound will be thin and overly bright.

I find that I get a MUCH better sound when I shift the drivers slightly forward till he back of my ears are resting ON the earpads. In this position, the sound is richer and more balanced. There is clearly more bass, and the treble is no longer shrill or piercing but has good weight. The overall presentation becomes more dimensional and less "in your head". It really sounds more like listening to a pair of speakers. HD800 owners must try it :D

With the HD800 worn right, what I'm hearing out of the Yggy & BHA1 combo is leaving me stunned like vegetable. Think of real live music that's supremely detailed, smooth, and slams real hard without any trace of harshness. :evil:

The HD800 remains my top headphone, and I'm enjoying the HD800 Yggy BHA1 combo more than other Stax 009 based rigs that I've heard.
 

dqwong

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The angle which the hd800 headband rest on your head also plays a role in imaging.

If you tilt back the headband towards the rear of your head, you will find the vocals coming from more upwards your eyes instead of coming from the bottom.
 

mwt_loke

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just curious...does yggy sound neutral, bright or lean ? Will a tube amp adds some warmth ?
 

Murcielago

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just curious...does yggy sound neutral, bright or lean ? Will a tube amp adds some warmth ?
The Yggy doesn't have much of a sound signature of its own. It's more dependent on the recording. Listening through the HD800, it sounds to me like a live performance. It's not "analytical", "bright" or "lean" and neither is it "warm" and "thick" sounding.
 

dqwong

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I don't think it's good to have a coloured dac to begin with, it creates equipment pairing issues. Coloration should be done by tube buffer/amp or at the speaker/headphone level.
 

FatalethaL

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I've been listening to the HD800 today, and I found that the position of the driver and earpads relative to your ear will make a SIGNIFICANT difference to what you hear.

When you first put on the HD800, the natural tendency is to wear it with your ears in the center, with the earpads surrounding your ears. The problem with this is that your ears will be too close to the drivers, and there isn't enough space for the bass to develop. Hence, the sound will be thin and overly bright.

I find that I get a MUCH better sound when I shift the drivers slightly forward till he back of my ears are resting ON the earpads. In this position, the sound is richer and more balanced. There is clearly more bass, and the treble is no longer shrill or piercing but has good weight. The overall presentation becomes more dimensional and less "in your head". It really sounds more like listening to a pair of speakers. HD800 owners must try it :D

With the HD800 worn right, what I'm hearing out of the Yggy & BHA1 combo is leaving me stunned like vegetable. Think of real live music that's supremely detailed, smooth, and slams real hard without any trace of harshness. :evil:

The HD800 remains my top headphone, and I'm enjoying the HD800 Yggy BHA1 combo more than other Stax 009 based rigs that I've heard.

Are you still at home or on the way to the hospital? :s13::s13::s13:


anyway good sharing. I will take note of it!
 

Murcielago

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Can share more impressions on the ygg?
Look here :D

http://www.head-fi.org/t/766347/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread

I can agree with most of the impressions there other than the Yggy sounding shouty and lean. System synergy plays an important part.
 

dqwong

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http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/sch...s-most-improbable-start-up/3045#post_10944447

This is really worth reading

Digital Yesterday: Steady Progression

When digital audio was new, you could pretty much chart the steady, linear progression of the technology for about a decade. From the first 14-bit multiplexed non-oversampling DACs in CD players in 1982, to the fully realized, 8x oversampling, 20 bit ladder DACs in the top DACs of the early 90s, there was clear and steady progress:

14 bit multiplexed D/A converters in CD players, no oversampling, brickwall filtering
The first 16 bit converters, still with no oversampling and brickwalled
16 bit converters with 4x oversampling, to eliminate the brickwall filter
Standalone DACs with 18 bit converters and 4x/8x upsampling
Standalone DACs with custom DSP filtering, 20 bit converters and 8x upsampling

And, along the way, you could chart the course in measurements. D/A converters got more linear, less noisy, and achieved higher performance by every measure. New versions of the old products performed better, because the multibit technology behind them was improving. Publications like Stereophile started measuring jitter, which raised awareness of its importance and led to jitter numbers steadily decreasing.

The result? By the early 1990s, it was possible to get 19+ bits of linearity out of multibit converters—a huge leap forward from the 13 or so bits of early CD players.

Progress wasn’t only made on the playback side, either. Mobile Fidelity contracted Mike Moffat (yes, our Mike Moffat) and Nelson Pass to create their GAIN system, an insane recording chain with a real 16-bit oven-controlled multibit DAC that output linear PCM with no missing codes up to 500kHz rates. This multi-chassis product took up almost a full equipment rack…but it was what was necessary to do good 16-bit ladder analog to digital conversion. Arguably, it still is.

Now, of course, there was only one problem with all of this progress: price.

Check the historic price of a PCM63 D/A converter, and you’ll quickly realize that it’s something that will never appear in an iPhone (nor would it fit.)

So, what to do? D/A chip manufacturers came to the rescue with products based on 1-bit sigma-delta modulation. These products were less expensive, easier to use, and more highly integrated. And they measured pretty well.

Another leap forward? In one way, yes. Without sigma-delta D/A converters, we wouldn’t have the wide range of DACs and ADCs we have today. Your smartphone has a DAC in it with specs we would have killed for in 1990. The analog to digital converter inside it may even output 24 bit samples, at higher sample rates than we would have ever imagined.

And we can’t underemphasize the impact of sigma-delta technology. It has allowed us to create more DACs (and ADCs) more inexpensively, with higher performance than we would have guessed, 20 years ago.

But we did lose something in all of this progress.


Digital Today: The Lost Decades

Today, it’s largely a sigma-delta world.

Recording. Most recording studios use analog to digital converters that employ A/D chips that use an intermediary multibit sigma-delta format before their PCM output. Note that this isn’t DSD. And note that even sigma-delta can have shades—single bit, multibit, etc.

Mixing. From there, the PCM output is mixed/mastered in PCM (pretty much all mixing and mastering is in PCM…yes, even recordings that end up as DSD.)

Playback. From there, it’s typically going to be compressed and downloaded or streamed to a player using a multibit sigma-delta D/A converter.

Or, in the case of some crazy audiophiles like us, it’s stored uncompressed, maybe even in high-res, before going to a DAC with a fancy multibit sigma-delta D/A converter.

Or, in a literal handful of cases, it might go to a true multibit R-2R converter, just like the old days. But that’s a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

“So, who cares what it is, I just want good sound!” you say.

And we agree! We’re far too wrapped up in formats. Take that format-proselytizing energy and aim it at the studios. Lobby them to produce better recordings. That will produce greater benefit than any format “regime change.”

But…here’s the deal (and here’s where we get philosophical.) In today’s sigma-delta world, we’ve lost something that we consider important: the original samples.

They’re destroyed by upsampling, they are destroyed by asynchronous sample rate conversion, they’re destroyed by sigma-delta D/A ICs. What you hear is an interpretation, a guess, at what the original content was (they don’t call them successive-approximation converters for nothing.)


“But this can’t possibly matter, it’s hard to measure the distortion of your typical ASRC, for example,” some will say.

Hard to measure doesn’t mean it isn’t there, we say.

Bottom line, it’s a mathematical fact that samples that have passed through a digital filter, an asynchronous sample rate converter, or a sigma-delta modulator are not retained. There is no closed-form solution to the math.

“And why should that matter to me?” you ask.

Maybe it doesn’t. Maybe the approximation is good enough.

But maybe it isn’t.

And this is where we get to the core of what Yggdrasil is about: what if we haven’t been hearing everything PCM is capable of, because we’ve been hearing it on delta-sigma technology that throws away the original samples?

Yeah. We know. We’re crazy.

And perhaps we are. Perhaps it will make no difference at all. Perhaps it won’t be important to anyone other than us. But the fact is: we have a solution to retain the reproduce the original samples, without the drawbacks of a non-oversampling design. It is in Yggdrasil. And we’ll see what you think, very, very soon.

And that is the absolute core of our digital philosophy: retaining the original samples, all the way through to the output.


“But, It Doesn’t Matter, Because…”

Because this position, this philosophy, is so counter to the currently accepted wisdom, I’ve prepared a quick discussion of possible objections to it, for your convenience.

“It doesn’t matter anyway, because everything comes from a delta-sigma ADC these days. Do you have any original bits at all?”

Actually, this isn’t entirely accurate. There are still multibit ADCs out there, though they are probably thin on the ground. There are also plenty of recordings made with multibit ADCs, including Mike’s GAIN system. They don’t disappear when new technology appears. And, you know what? Instead of being fatalistic and negative, we’d like to consider the best-case scenario: that we actually push PCM’s capabilities forward to the point where new multibit ADCs appear.

“But how can those old DACs possibly perform better than the best of today? They’re only 20/48. We have 32/768.”

Going from 16/44 to 20/44 actually makes more difference than anything else, when it comes to digital. Why? Although the Nyquist theorem says you can perfectly reconstruct a waveform from digital with 2X the sample rate, it assumes an infinite-bit ADC with no quantization error. The more levels, the less the quantization error. 16 bit = 65536 levels, 20 bit = 1048576 levels. 24 bits is 16 million+ levels, but nobody has ever achieved 24 bit linearity, period. The best DACs are about 19.5-20 bits, even after 20 years of “progress.” (Hence, “the lost decades.”) Higher sample rates are nice for analog filtering, but limit the amount of horsepower a digital filter can bring to bear…and it takes up more storage space. So that’s a tradeoff. And “32 bit?” LOLOLROFLCOPTER. There will never be any 32 bit music. Because physics.
 
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Murcielago

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So back at home I listened to my HD800, DA8, HDVA600 setup, and compared it to my earlier HD800 Yggy BHA1 experience in the office. The sound from the DA8 seemed neutered compared to the Yggy, with less resolution, less energy and a smaller, flatter soundstage. There is less "slam" to the music and overall, the sound has a drier, thinner and slightly brighter character.

If I were to rate my HD800 Yggy BHA1 experience a 10, then my HD800 DA8 HDVA600 experience would be a 7. While the DA8 is enjoyable on its own, the Yggy plays in a different league.
 

dqwong

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So back at home I listened to my HD800, DA8, HDVA600 setup, and compared it to my earlier HD800 Yggy BHA1 experience in the office. The sound from the DA8 seemed neutered compared to the Yggy, with less resolution, less energy and a smaller, flatter soundstage. There is less "slam" to the music and overall, the sound has a drier, thinner and slightly brighter character.

If I were to rate my HD800 Yggy BHA1 experience a 10, then my HD800 DA8 HDVA600 experience would be a 7. While the DA8 is enjoyable on its own, the Yggy plays in a different league.


Would really love to compare my Audio-gd master 9 headphone amp vs your BHA 1. :s12:
 

Murcielago

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Would really love to compare my Audio-gd master 9 headphone amp vs your BHA 1. :s12:
I'm quite sure the M9 will be better. I've also read comments that the Ragnarok, GSX mk2 and HDVD800 are better than the BHA1. :o
 

dqwong

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http://www.audioaficionado.org/cd-players-digital-music-servers/31308-yggdrasil-released-4.html

ChrisG ChrisG is online now
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yeah, it is a damn good DAC.

I put Yggy into my main system on Saturday afternoon and have deliberately listened only a couple of hours each day so that I would be attuned to changes as it comes up to optimal temperature. First, it is amazing how it sounds with just a couple of hours of being plugged in and it is also very interesting to see how the sound is changing and, I'll use the word, maturing.

Last night, with about 125 hours of "on time", it took a major step towards "digital vinyl".

I have a revealing/neutral system (Linn Klimax Kontrol preamp, Hegel H30 amp and Vivid Audio B-1 speakers) and, to be honest, up until last night I thought I might have to get a tube preamp into the system because, while not hearing a digital glare or fatigue, the sound was still a little bright for my tastes (I should also mention that my listening room has been acoustically treated so it's not the room), but like I said last night was different. The brightness was gone and, while I haven't had a turntable in my system for a long time, it certainly didn't sound digital. There is a depth and texture to the sound that I haven't heard before, yet the DAC doesn't paint every song with its own "sound", it lets the details through good or bad, and it is very musical.

Yes, the air guitar came out last night...and it wasn't a pretty sight!

I've had DACs from PS Audio (DLIII w/Cullen Stage IV Modification, PWD v1), Linn (Akurate DS, Klimax DS/1) and currently an Audio Research Ref DAC in the system that I'm auditioning Yggy in. As you can see, I've been moving up the price levels looking for "one DAC to rule them all" and I'm coming to the conclusion that Yggy is better than any of these DACs. Yes, a $2,400 DAC is better some very expensive DACs that I've owned and it is supposed get even better over the next 48 hours.

You'll have to decide for yourself whether or not it is a giant killer, but I'm confident that the Men of Schitt have a winner here.
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ChrisG
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Main: Audio Research Ref DAC, Oppo BDP-103, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD, Classe SSP-800, Linn Klimax Kontrol, Hegel H30, Parasound A51, Vivid B1 (2), Vivid C1, B&W CDS3 (2), B&W M-1 (2), JL Audio f112 (2), eSilentPC server, Transparent Reference cables
Desktop: Ayre QB-9 DSD, Headamp GS-X mk2, Focal CMS50, Sennheiser HD-800, WireWorld cables
Mobile: RWAK 240, Westone ES5
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shadow84

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H.F.T.L.(hoot first talk later):
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Direct to SG? Got so kan chiong meh? FEDEX int'l priority is damn expensive, more so than DHL. I think if u go thru CGW + free upgrade to express with DHL + 10% off, can save a lot sia.
 

Emerpus

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Direct to SG? Got so kan chiong meh? FEDEX int'l priority is damn expensive, more so than DHL. I think if u go thru CGW + free upgrade to express with DHL + 10% off, can save a lot sia.

Note this policy of Schiit if you plan to use reshipper ...

Can I use a reshipper?
We don't have any policies that specifically prevent you from using a reshipper. We do have some policies that limit our responsibility for your order when you choose to use a reshipper. Please be aware of the following before using a reshipper. The 15-day returns window begins the day that your product is delivered to the delivery address specified in your order (the reshipper). You have three days from the delivery of your order to the delivery address to make a claim for any damage incurred during shipping. All warranty service, exchanges, or order corrections are limited to the country where the product was first delivered. In other words, if you live in Hong Kong and use a U.S. reshipper then your 15-day return window starts on the day your product is delivered to the reshipper. If your order has a problem then we will be sending the repaired or replaced units to the reshipper.
 

dqwong

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Direct to SG? Got so kan chiong meh? FEDEX int'l priority is damn expensive, more so than DHL. I think if u go thru CGW + free upgrade to express with DHL + 10% off, can save a lot sia.

There's only two shipping service on the Schiit web ordering system. Either USPS(econ/priority) or Fedex (econ/priority).

I have checked with Schiit and they recommended FEDex over USPS for international customers.
 
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