Profitable Group - is it credible?

joyjoyhope said:

As far as I know, there are some in this forum who have started recovery of money by legal action, by way of lawyer's letter. PG may choose to ignore, just like they are choosing to stonewall payment for mature contracts. They may think that we will consider the cost of a lawsuit so prohibitive that after the letter, we resign ourselves to wait. I think, you must make it very clear to PG that you are serious about sueing. I think that actions by lawsuit or SCT is important, that PG would rather avoid lawsuit (which is very expensive for them also) and thus pay what is due to one individual investor. Thus, legal action is not about hoping what the court will award to you, but that it is a tactic to apply enough pressure to budge PG. But first, you must be able to show them that you are very, very serious about filing a lawsuit.

Yes, life goes on. I sincerely hope that all here will be able to recover your money back successfully.

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Hey thanks joyjoyhope,
what you posted today, really give me high hopes and courage. I will not going to give in to them that easily anymore. This is my money and I have every right to get it back! I had been a 'sucker' for almost 7 months and... not anymore!

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

Option to sell or option to buy ?

Not trained as a lawyer but the option to sell does look like an option not a right. If I sell you a car I may grant you an option to sell it back to me at the same price but if I make it optional for me to buy it back there is no binding agreement its just a conversation. However if all investors believe they have the option when they don't was there legal misrepresentation ?

I have been reading reports about fraud in the UK from the National Fraud Authority and the problems with reporting it. More people need to report fraud for it to be taken seriously.

Ambiguity of fraud
Some frauds are designed to be legally ambiguous.This means once the victim realises it is
a scam, it may be difficult to secure the interest of the law enforcement community. Some
scams, such as investment frauds, are ambiguous in the sense some victims think it was
just a bad investment rather than a scam.

The criminal justice process
A common perception for victims’ low reporting of fraud is the perception that criminal justice
agencies do not take them seriously

Confusion
Some victims are confused over to whom to report the fraud. This might be made worse if
they go to the police and are told it is a ‘civil matter’ or to speak to another agency, who in
turn then may refer them elsewhere or to another body.

Perception partly responsible
Many victims hold themselves partly or solely to blame and as a consequence are reluctant
to report it. Indeed Mason and Benson (1996) found those victims who blamed themselves
or the offender and themselves, were much less likely to report.

Embarrassment
Linked to perceptions of responsibility some victims feel embarrassed and do not want family
members and outsiders to know of their loss.

Probono - i say there is a misrepresentation if we can prove by providing the reasons why investors believe that they have options to sell back, though there is no solid one i can think of. Further, comment of your illustration - my understanding is that a few elements required in order to make up a binding contract (including price/service for a consideration). As in you will to sell me your car and provide me an option to sell back to you at cost however you may chose not to buy back BUT pay me 12.5% pa per term. That fulfills a contract based on my understanding.

kelvintyy - i feel that the salesperson can say what he/she wants. beside, even not so how can we prove what he/she says? Most importantly, there is a contract, i think it supersede everything.

belledonne99 - the risks are not transferred to us, they cant do that. what they are trying to say (i think) is that they have no money due to dubai. In my view, its probably an excuse. Even if dubai pays, the money will be used to run operation to buy time for philippines.
i do not understand your grounds, which part of the contract is at our advantage? please share.

joyjoyhope - wow, congrats. you must be fierce.. haha...joking. if you dont mind, can you reveal the sum you got back is capital+int or interest only? You have prove me wrong that PG has liquidity problem, probably. If PG has reason to pay you, they have reason to pay all of us. Thanks too, now i know who to haunt for. You also mentioned that you have your contract legally looked at, so can i say that there is in fact a maturity after each term and PG obligates to pay us everything at end term?

probono said:

Not trained as a lawyer but the option to sell does look like an option not a right. If I sell you a car I may grant you an option to sell it back to me at the same price but if I make it optional for me to buy it back there is no binding agreement its just a conversation. However if all investors believe they have the option when they don't was there legal misrepresentation ?

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What investors believe or understand do not matter in a dispute. It's the contract that they sign that matter. So where the misrepresentation? Can show the contract here for us to read?

Just like the AAA brochure provided by kelvintyy, there is nothing to say PG got AAA rating if though it's designed to appear that PG is associated with AAA rating.

Showing intent

henrylbh said:

What investors believe or understand do not matter in a dispute. It's the contract that they sign that matter. So where the misrepresentation? Can show the contract here for us to read? Just like the AAA brochure provided by kelvintyy, there is nothing to say PG got AAA rating if though it's designed to appear that PG is associated with AAA rating.

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You make a good point but not sure if its always true. If there is a deliberate attempt to deceive and enough people are misunderstanding then there may be grounds for a legal case even without a contract. Cheating is cheating.

One customer with a problem suggests a bad customer. 10 customers with a problem suggests intent to deceive on the part of a salesman. 100 customers complaining suggest the intent to deceive is embedded in the company.

I would agree its a very grey area but look at how the guys who charge Ang Mohs S$30 for a prawn get shut down at Newton. No contract there just intent to deceive naive tourists who do not know the true value of things in Singapore.

Most Land Banking companies in Singapore are just deceiving people who don’t know the true value of English land with no prospect of development.

temjin38 said:

belledonne99 - the risks are not transferred to us, they cant do that. what they are trying to say (i think) is that they have no money due to dubai. In my view, its probably an excuse. Even if dubai pays, the money will be used to run operation to buy time for philippines.
i do not understand your grounds, which part of the contract is at our advantage? please share.

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Yes, Profitable is saying they have no money to pay due to Dubai customers not paying them. I am saying they just have to find other means to pay us! The contract does not say we should wait until Profitable gets paid by their end customers.

As for the contract, clause 6 & 7 clearly shows that Profitable does not have the option to decide whether to buy back boron or not. They have to buy back. These 2 clauses say that if they fail to pay within 30 days, you can refer the dispute to court or you can force the transaction to get back your money.

Hi people,

First of all, I'm really pleased that someone here has at last received their payment from Profitable. Congratulations, joyjoyhope!

I'd sought legal opinion on the AAA contract. My understanding is that at the end of the option period which is 12 mths, I can call on my option for Profitable to buy back the plot provided the proper notice is served to them. So if I decide to liquidate at the end of 12mths, I have to be paid my principal + 12.5%.

Nowhere in the contract does it say that the buyback option is at the discretion of the transferor, which in this case, is Profitable. But, according to what pp-vic was apparently told, Profitable is claiming that "it is not compulsory the company will buy back the plot". Something is seriously wrong here!

Another matter of concern is the "resale". Again, according to what pp-vic was told, "The resale option is if any client would like to sell their AAA/plots and would like us to find a buyer PP will charge a 15% commission on the sell price."

To the best of my understanding, if I exercise my option to sell my plot back to Profitable at the end of the option period (12mths), there is no sales commission payable. However, if I needed to sell my plot during the option period, let's say after 8mths, and PP help secure me a buyer, then yes, a sales commission would be payable.

From what I've read here, some seemed resigned to the situation, while others, appear more proactive in working to get their money back. I personally find the efforts belledonna made really commendable, and of course, joyjoyhope did not get paid her money by doing nothing.

As far as I am concerned, I will do everything I can within my means including legal action to get my money back. It is a matter of principle. Some may feel it is throwing good money after bad, but to do nothing will simply send the wrong signals to Profitable.

Persistence is the only answer.

joyjoyhope said:

I got my money from a boron contract back recently, after going down to the office consistently for a week plus. IMO, profitable group seems to be playing a test of the wills. If you wear them down bad enough, you can get your money back. You may be provoked, but you must stay calm. Show your anger and be firm about wanting your money back. .

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I wonder how this fits with their Singapore Quality Class certification from SPRING. Of course if the Profitable Group process says Profitable Group dont pay according to their contracts, use misleading statements, and delay customers with excuses for as long as possible then they are in complete conformance with their policies

My view is they do have a cash flow problem. Like Madoff they will pay enough to stop legal issues but they want to pay as few as possible to preserve cash.

chubbytubby said:

Some may feel it is throwing good money after bad, but to do nothing will simply send the wrong signals to Profitable.

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You are right - in this case persistence is the only answer. That and make sure you are first in the queue.

chubbytubby said:

Hi people,

First of all, I'm really pleased that someone here has at last received their payment from Profitable. Congratulations, joyjoyhope!

I'd sought legal opinion on the AAA contract. My understanding is that at the end of the option period which is 12 mths, I can call on my option for Profitable to buy back the plot provided the proper notice is served to them. So if I decide to liquidate at the end of 12mths, I have to be paid my principal + 12.5%.

Nowhere in the contract does it say that the buyback option is at the discretion of the transferor, which in this case, is Profitable. But, according to what pp-vic was apparently told, Profitable is claiming that "it is not compulsory the company will buy back the plot". Something is seriously wrong here!

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I think someone earlier asked the same question. Yes my lawyer said the same thing as chubbytubby's lawyer, although the word used in the contract is "option", according to my lawyer, the contract in clear terms states that PG must fulfill the contract at the end of the option period. It is definitely not up to the discretion of PG. As has been stated by probono and a few others, there is no dispute, PG is simply stalling payment because they claim that they have cashflow problems.

I got worried when I first started encountering difficulties in getting back my money.. I googled profitable group and came to this forum. I read through all the comments, starting from page 1, and I realised there have been people who have posted experiences of difficulties in getting money back... as early as June for kelvintyy, even earlier for someone in one of the first pages.. who said his friends had trouble getting money back Feb last year (2008??).. So I decided there is no way that I can buy the Dubai customers line.

chubbytubby said:

As far as I am concerned, I will do everything I can within my means including legal action to get my money back. It is a matter of principle. Some may feel it is throwing good money after bad, but to do nothing will simply send the wrong signals to Profitable.

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Agree.. I was very motivated to recover my money because I consider it a large sum, and I was very afraid of losing it. The whole incident was emotionally truamatic to me. I think what works the most is persistence. Guys, there are 2 ways to lose your money.. one is to continue to accept PG's claims and continue to wait, the other way is to lose it in court fees by taking them to court. For the latter option, you may have the chance of recovering your money. I asked myself what was the chances with the first option, and I didnt feel very optimistic.

SCT

belledonne99 said:

SCT, after hearing both parties and taking a break to think thru' whether Boron falls under
the purview of SCT, decides that it does not. This is very surprising, taking into account
that both parties (ie. including Tim Goldring himself who represents PG) said Boron is NOT
an investment product at the consultation session! There is an underlying physical asset!
And there is a clear delivery schedule. And no where in the Boron contract does the word
'investment' appear.

Furthermore, MAS clearly states that PG is NOT licensed to sell investment products!

So the situation is: SCT said it's an investment. MAS said PG is not licensed to sell
investment products. So is Boron an investment product or not?

An appeal against the decision is unavoidable, at least it serves to clarify the situation.

.....

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The appeal has been filed. Look forward to hearing from the court again on whether Boron is an investment. If it is still decided as such, then I will show MAS the court's decision & ask what action they will take against Profitable Group. If the appeal is accepted, then I look forward to a hearing before SCT together with Profitable Group.

Going to court is the last thing on my mind but I will still do it.

If I do nothing, I will not know how long PG is going to delay my money.

It may take an hour of my time in court compare to months of fruitless waiting. I may or may not win the case but at least I did something to get my money back.

If 100 investors or more went to court, the director of PG will have to spend least 100 hours attending courts. Furthermore, the judges and public will view PG differently if many different individuals have genuine payment issues with the company.

Dear Profitable Group/Profitable Plots,

Stop calling me & my wife until you have fulfilled all your stakeholders'/investors' obligations!!! I have directed you to this forum... Resolve all stakeholders'/investors' dissatisfactions first!

Regards

Cool

binggo said:

Dear Profitable Group/Profitable Plots,
Stop calling me & my wife until you have fulfilled all your stakeholders'/investors' obligations!!! I have directed you to this forum... Resolve all stakeholders'/investors' dissatisfactions first!
Regards

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Hey Binggo. They are calling you and your wife so they can pay a few complaining investors off. What you should be worried about is who will be left to call to pay you ?

Sooner or later you have a critical mass of sellers who refuse to re-invest their "profit" into a new product and want their money back and no more buyers. If that happens the house of cards topples.

I would like to do a quick survey - how many people here have been upsold and bought more than one Profitable product ? Multiple Land sites, Boron, AAA, Smart Client ?

There does seem to be a consistent trend of people topping up their "profit" into other products rather than withdrawing it.

Though 3 months overdue, I have finally received my payment. Profitable Group has paid me. That happened just before both Profitable Group and I were expected to appear before SCT again for the appeal hearing.

Continue to keep the pressure on Profitable Group and act fast. If the amount is small, consider SCT. If you can't file at SCT, do consider civil claims (incl. claiming for legal fees incurred) and start talking to a lawyer.

Hi belledonne99, can you send private msg to me on how to make a claim on SCT? It seems that there is something wrong with the way they sell the Boron, if not they will go all the way on SCT.

Hi, probono, I have purchase AAA, Boron & Concorde village.

congrats

Congrats belledonne on getting back your money!! Yes, must keep pressure on PG. pp-vic, I think what belledonne has said earlier is that for the claim form content, you need to argue that Boron is not share/bonds, but a product (an industrial lubricant). Hope u get back your money soon.

For those who intend to file at SCT...

belledonne99 said:

Hi temjin38, for Boron, supporting docs you need are:
- Boron transfer title & the attached option agreement
- Receipt from PG (proof that you had paid)
- The completed Boron exercise/surrender form that was submitted to PG or other proof that you had chosen to surrender Boron upon maturity.
- Other email exchanges with PG/ letters from them that may be useful

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Hi pp-vic and others who intend to file at SCT,

Please refer to my earlier post on the docs you need to prepare. You have to fill in the SCT claim form too, and provide Profitable Plots business profile ($5, buy from ACRA website). Filing fee is $20. In the claim form, you need to explain what Boron is too (I have posted this before too, as pointed out by Joyjoyhope). Hope that help!

For those who intend to file at SCT (part II)

I managed to dig out a message I sent to someone asking for advice in the past. For everyone's info too:

"Some quick facts:
- SCT is for claims below $20k
- For below $10k claims, claimant can file directly. Fee is $20, excluding the purchase of Profitable Plots Pte Ltd Business Profile from ACRA ($5 only).

- For claims between $10k-$20k, you need Profitable to also agree to bring the case to SCT. BUT...in the case of Boron contract, you can try to use clause 6 & 7 to argue that you can file unilaterally. Fee is 1% of claim amount.

You can follow the Subordinate Court weblink which I posted in the forum earlier. You need to download the checklist (just for reference) and the claim form from that website. Very easy.

As for the claim form content, you need to argue that Boron is not share/bonds, but a product (an industrial lubricant). I have posted the content on what you should write on the forum too. Please take a look.

Just fill up the claim form ( original + 3 more copies).
Print a copy of Profitable Plots Pte Ltd Biz Profile
Photocopy 1 copy of all supporting docs
- Boron option form,
- Boron contract,
- Profitable's receipt of your payment
- Your Boron exercise form that was submitted to Profitable and acknowledged by them to show that you had chosen to surrender your "product" on maturity date
- Emails (if any) showing that Profitable promised a date but did not pay up.
- Any others that you think useful"

Congratulations to belledonne for finally receiving her payment from Profitable. It is sad that Profitable actually found it necessary to have their director attend a Small Claims Tribunal hearing for a sum under SGD10,000, before eventually settling. That does not bode well...

I've proceeded with legal action. so the matter is now with my lawyer. Just as unacceptable as it is to delay payment, is the manner that Profitable has chosen to handle the situation. I'm sure joyjoyhope is not the only investor here to find getting money back from Profitable traumatising. I personally find the stonewalling, the excuses, the silence ... truly, stupefying!

Now that belledonne & joyjoyjope have successfully managed to recover their money, how many here have still yet to resolve payment from Profitable? Of these, may I know how many are AAAs & how many are Borons? And for how long now have the matters been unresolved?

The Answer To All Of This

Ask your lawyer to write or fax Advanced Lubrication Technology, www.altboron.com and ask the CEO Mr Phelps to confirm have Profitable Group ordered a significant amount of Boron to Dubai this year, the answer will be NO.
Have they ordered product other than samples in the last 12 months, NO
Do they have exclusive contract? NO

He will only reply to a written request from a lawyer.