learning japanese

SiaoJ · Feb 8, 2010

_Runo_ said:
sry for the late reply to this btw. i guess u already have the info which azumangadaioh sent but just to share some personal experiences, takeyama & yamamoto sensei taught me during ele 1 & majority of my classmates (including myself) prefer yamamoto sensei. her lessons were at a pace that we could follow. takeyama sensei speaks quite fast sometimes and we couldn't really catch what she was saying. there was also once when i guess takeyama sensei was supposed to teach us about the なんです-form but she didn't.. (because when yamamoto sensei came in the next lesson and there was a dialogue with that form, we didn't understand and yamamoto sensei thought that we should have learnt it in the previous lesson by takeyama sensei. but she taught us on the spot anyway.)

currently i'm being taught by nakanishi sensei in ele 2 and she is quite ok.. but i've noticed that she doesn't walk down the row to check and help correct us during in-class assignments (while takeyama and yamamoto sensei do) though she does go through the questions after everyone has finished. yup. hope this somehow helps.

Thanks for the info ! I felt bunka pace realy v fast..think when i reach intermediate level realy canot handle aready need to revise daily...& as i am also working..think i dun realy have time to revise ...anyone got any tips to share hw to manage >?

dimitri_can · Feb 8, 2010

SiaoJ said:
Thanks for the info ! I felt bunka pace realy v fast..think when i reach intermediate level realy canot handle aready need to revise daily...& as i am also working..think i dun realy have time to revise ...anyone got any tips to share hw to manage >?

I think the grammar in Bunka is quite a lot. Azu san should be able to throw some advice.

ohmyYY · Feb 8, 2010

i m a lazy student... now study elem 2.. i could not remember by heart for the count object or date etc..
te form kudasai/motte iru .. duno how to change..

is there a ways to remember easily? >.<

azumangadaioh · Feb 9, 2010

Use this free download to assist you [ for training memory and recall - then throw your notebook away ke ke ],

http://ichi2.net/anki/

and this

www.tagaini.net

for a windows based dictionary [ it's free also, although not a electronic dictionary, for starters u don't really want to spend too much unless u r sure u are serious about learning Japanese ]

Let me know if u hv problems using anki.

unfinished07 · Feb 9, 2010

ohmyYY said:
i m a lazy student... now study elem 2.. i could not remember by heart for the count object or date etc..
te form kudasai/motte iru .. duno how to change..

is there a ways to remember easily? >.<

easy way = stop being lazy

Ah_keong · Feb 9, 2010

Happy New Year Everyone!~

azumangadaioh · Feb 10, 2010

unfinished07 said:
easy way = stop being lazy

Very point blank leh. Still, there are always people who says they are lazy yet score distinctions all the time.

ohmyYY · Feb 10, 2010

azumangadaioh said:
Use this free download to assist you [ for training memory and recall - then throw your notebook away ke ke ],

http://ichi2.net/anki/

and this

www.tagaini.net

for a windows based dictionary [ it's free also, although not a electronic dictionary, for starters u don't really want to spend too much unless u r sure u are serious about learning Japanese ]

Let me know if u hv problems using anki.

woo~ i m now exploring the online anki.. which mean i dont need to carry my crumble paper.. :s12:

tagiaini i think is gd enuff for me @ my stage.. textbook have some kanji word.. it will help me to recall easily... although i m dLing now has yet to use..

10Q.. azumangadaioh san.. much appreciated ! (=

ilovepiano · Feb 10, 2010

Hi, hope this is not too late to be useful. Used to be in Bunka. Switched due to changes in schedule. What worked for me was to try to absorb most things on the spot rather than do it at home. Sensei usually asks all students a question to practise new grammar so it kinda sinks in after a full round. Since there are only 4-5 new grammar points per lesson, I found that revising 1 new grammar point per day for 15 min was enough. Add on 30 min for old stuff/kanji (Studied all my kanji on MRT etc. ) and that pretty much covered it. Tests were not all that stressful since constantly revising.

That said, I have the same problem at Ikoma's JLPT 2 prep class. Pace is super fast. Impossible for my poor brain to absorb everything on the spot. :s13:

I try to memorise 1 or 2 sentences for every new grammar point (sensei's advice) but at the end of the day, I forget the meaning/context of the sentence. :s13:

Anyone has tips on how to cope more effectively?

Lastly, some grammar questions:
Already asked sensei but still can't understand some aspects. Thanks in advance to anyone who can clarify.

1) Various Expressions for "just ~" (loosely translated)

(I) 焼く
a) 焼きたて freshly baked (immediately after)
b) 焼いたところ just baked (based on real time)
c) 焼いたばかり just baked (speaker's subjective opinion)

(II)結婚する
a) 結婚したて just married (up to 3 mths after)
b) 結婚したところ just married (based on real time)
c) 結婚したばかり just married (speaker's subjective opinion)

(III)来る
a) きたて just come (time frame???)
b) きたところ just come (based on real time)
c) きたばかり just come (speaker's subjective opinion)

Does this mean ~たて has no fixed time frame and can be used more loosely compared to the other 2?

2) Volitional vs Non-volitional Verbs (NOT volitional form of verbs)

a) How can you tell the diff? What I've gathered so far is just this:

Volitional --> own control
Non-volitional --> beyond own control

Which would 間にあう fall under?

b) Non-volitional verbs that have no potential form:

eg. わかる, 間にあう

Why not? I believe it's somewhere along the lines of these verbs carrying the meaning of ability/capability to do something so they don't need a potential verb. Seems to make sense but I can't really SEE it. :s11:

azumangadaioh · Feb 10, 2010

ohmyYY said:
woo~ i m now exploring the online anki.. which mean i dont need to carry my crumble paper..

tagiaini i think is gd enuff for me @ my stage.. textbook have some kanji word.. it will help me to recall easily... although i m dLing now has yet to use..

10Q.. azumangadaioh san.. much appreciated ! (=

I prefer to make my own flash cards using material taught from lessons. Some online cards try to cram too much info into 1 set of Qn and Ans card, which I think kinda defeats the purpose of 1 fact 1 recall targeted training as the program was originally designed for. Plus some decks of cards may either contain too much or too little that may not be customized for the person's learning ability or current level of class taken.

normally for kanji and vocab wise [ grammar is something else ], my cards will be like this:

Qn -> Ans or "Front -> Back" in anki format

hiragana -> meaning
hiragana -> kanji
meaning -> hiragana
meaning -> kanji
kanji -> meaning
kanji -> hiragana

Altogether 6 cards for any given kanji [ those kanji with multiple readings or meanings will have special treatment ]. This way, nothing is left out.

So after a few rounds of revision, u pretty much figure out which component u r weak in, and anki will do the rest..

Also, u may want to create a new deck for every new lesson u attended instead of putting everything in 1 deck to check for typo errors, as it will be a pain to look for something u mistyped if the deck contains hundreds of cards.

unfinished07 · Feb 10, 2010

azumangadaioh said:
Very point blank leh. Still, there are always people who says they are lazy yet score distinctions all the time.

these people, most of the time actually study hard, but dun let ppl know.
or they have clever ways of studying.

unfinished07 · Feb 10, 2010

ilovepiano said:
Hi, hope this is not too late to be useful. Used to be in Bunka. Switched due to changes in schedule. What worked for me was to try to absorb most things on the spot rather than do it at home. Sensei usually asks all students a question to practise new grammar so it kinda sinks in after a full round. Since there are only 4-5 new grammar points per lesson, I found that revising 1 new grammar point per day for 15 min was enough. Add on 30 min for old stuff/kanji (Studied all my kanji on MRT etc. ) and that pretty much covered it. Tests were not all that stressful since constantly revising.

That said, I have the same problem at Ikoma's JLPT 2 prep class. Pace is super fast. Impossible for my poor brain to absorb everything on the spot. I try to memorise 1 or 2 sentences for every new grammar point (sensei's advice) but at the end of the day, I forget the meaning/context of the sentence. Anyone has tips on how to cope more effectively?

Lastly, some grammar questions:
Already asked sensei but still can't understand some aspects. Thanks in advance to anyone who can clarify.

1) Various Expressions for "just ~" (loosely translated)

(I) 焼く
a) 焼きたて freshly baked (immediately after)
b) 焼いたところ just baked (based on real time)
c) 焼いたばかり just baked (speaker's subjective opinion)

(II)結婚する
a) 結婚したて just married (up to 3 mths after)
b) 結婚したところ just married (based on real time)
c) 結婚したばかり just married (speaker's subjective opinion)

(III)来る
a) きたて just come (time frame???)
b) きたところ just come (based on real time)
c) きたばかり just come (speaker's subjective opinion)

Does this mean ~たて has no fixed time frame and can be used more loosely compared to the other 2?

2) Volitional vs Non-volitional Verbs (NOT volitional form of verbs)

a) How can you tell the diff? What I've gathered so far is just this:

Volitional --> own control
Non-volitional --> beyond own control

Which would 間にあう fall under?

b) Non-volitional verbs that have no potential form:

eg. わかる, 間にあう

Why not? I believe it's somewhere along the lines of these verbs carrying the meaning of ability/capability to do something so they don't need a potential verb. Seems to make sense but I can't really SEE it.

kanai sensei's class, rite? she's a fast teacher, with fast mouth..... :s13:

its good for your listening, and if u can catch most of what she's saying, then ur listening is good

actually for JLPT 2 prep classes, the teacher will expect the student to have some knowledge already on the grammar, bunpo of the syllabus.
and during the class she will not really teach, but to explain or clear any questions.
she usually spends more time on other areas, not that much on the grammar

dimitri_can · Feb 10, 2010

ilovepiano said:
That said, I have the same problem at Ikoma's JLPT 2 prep class. Pace is super fast. Impossible for my poor brain to absorb everything on the spot. I try to memorise 1 or 2 sentences for every new grammar point (sensei's advice) but at the end of the day, I forget the meaning/context of the sentence. Anyone has tips on how to cope more effectively?

1. Record down the lessons using your HP and relisten if you have doubt.
2. Try to write down your own grammar notes. When you do the tests every week, you should be able to recall the grammar that is taught the previous week.

Let me know if you need help, i can do free revision with you, provided i have time.

ilovepiano said:
1) Various Expressions for "just ~" (loosely translated)

(I) 焼く
a) 焼きたて freshly baked (immediately after)
b) 焼いたところ just baked (based on real time)
c) 焼いたばかり just baked (speaker's subjective opinion)

(II)結婚する
a) 結婚したて just married (up to 3 mths after)
b) 結婚したところ just married (based on real time)
c) 結婚したばかり just married (speaker's subjective opinion)

(III)来る
a) きたて just come (time frame???)
b) きたところ just come (based on real time)
c) きたばかり just come (speaker's subjective opinion)

Does this mean ~たて has no fixed time frame and can be used more loosely compared to the other 2?

I'll try my best to explain, might not be the best explanation out there.

た＋ところ (Just did ~, minutes ago, 1 day ago)

た＋ばかり(Just did ~, but the period which the person has done is of a longer time that た＋ところ/e.g 1 month)

ます-form+て: 1級文法です。勉強する必要がない。

ilovepiano said:
2) Volitional vs Non-volitional Verbs (NOT volitional form of verbs)

a) How can you tell the diff? What I've gathered so far is just this:

Volitional --> own control
Non-volitional --> beyond own control

Which would 間にあう fall under?

b) Non-volitional verbs that have no potential form:

eg. わかる, 間にあう

Why not? I believe it's somewhere along the lines of these verbs carrying the meaning of ability/capability to do something so they don't need a potential verb. Seems to make sense but I can't really SEE it.

You are talking about 意志動詞 and 無意志動詞. Try reading this up.

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~nifongo/1h93fy/ishi.html

http://www.projecth2o.org/ylsfxy/2/41ishidoushi.html

I think a JLPT 2 student should be able to understand the above link. Let me know if you still don't understand.

dimitri_can · Feb 11, 2010

I kinda miss ah keong liao... and demid and ender...

ilovepiano · Feb 11, 2010

unfinished07 said:
kanai sensei's class, rite? she's a fast teacher, with fast mouth.....
its good for your listening, and if u can catch most of what she's saying, then ur listening is good
actually for JLPT 2 prep classes, the teacher will expect the student to have some knowledge already on the grammar, bunpo of the syllabus.
and during the class she will not really teach, but to explain or clear any questions.
she usually spends more time on other areas, not that much on the grammar

Yes, she's really very fast and animated when she explains. 1st lesson was a shocker. I had to record the rest of the lessons and playback 20% slower to catch what she said. :s13:

Like her though, clearly very experienced and organised. Very lucky to get her as sensei.

Surprised to hear that not much time spent on grammar cos we spend about 1.5-2h per lesson on new grammar and review of previous lesson's grammar. Mostly reading sentences out loud and explanation. Rest of time for kanji test and comprehension homework etc.

My class doesn't really ask many questions, if at all. Even when reviewing homework. Is my class really that good to hv hardly any questions? I thought so until recent test on JLPT 3 stuff. I did ok but apparently my class did badly enough that Kanai sensei was v surprised and not too happy. I get the impression that most classmates are like me - just finished JLPT 3 last yr and trying out for N2 or maybe N3 if progress not so good - without the benefit of any pre-knowledge of N2 bunpo. I am beginning to wonder if I have signed up for the wrong class if sensei expects us to know the bunpo already!

dimitri_can said:
1. Record down the lessons using your HP and relisten if you have doubt.
2. Try to write down your own grammar notes. When you do the tests every week, you should be able to recall the grammar that is taught the previous week.

Let me know if you need help, i can do free revision with you, provided i have time.

I'll try my best to explain, might not be the best explanation out there.

た＋ところ (Just did ~, minutes ago, 1 day ago)

た＋ばかり(Just did ~, but the period which the person has done is of a longer time that た＋ところ/e.g 1 month)

ます-form+て: 1級文法です。勉強する必要がない。

You are talking about 意志動詞 and 無意志動詞. Try reading this up.

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~nifongo/1h93fy/ishi.html

http://www.projecth2o.org/ylsfxy/2/41ishidoushi.html

I think a JLPT 2 student should be able to understand the above link. Let me know if you still don't understand.

Thank you for your time, advice, explanation and the links! It's wonderful that you offer your help so readily. Much appreciated. :s12:

Not exactly at JLPT 2 std yet so I may take a while to decipher the Japanese on the biglobe site. Haven't actually tried studying Japanese in Japanese. :s13:

Hv been recording and playing back and doing notes. Not exactly my own as copied the notes from handouts given. (I like all my grammar points consolidated in my little Japanese bible.) Didn't exactly copy but wrote down Eng version of each example and tried to translate to Japanese to help remember meaning. So far not to great effect unfortunately. don't know what else I can do tbh.

Lastly, understand the diff between た＋ところ and た＋ばかり. Thanks, and

dimitri_can said:
ます-form+て: 1級文法です。勉強する必要がない。

typo?
Learning ます-form+たて at JCS. Can you shed some light on this compared to the other 2 expressions if you don't mind? Would like to know even if not in N2 test. Many thanks as always.

azumangadaioh · Feb 11, 2010

I like to add,

since u mentioned u were from bunka,

た＋ところ [ int 4 ] is also commonly used with さっき or 今, and in real actual time a while ago like what dimitri_can described.

た＋ばかり [ int 2 ] for recent events from speaker's perspective, not necessarily real time.

I recall someone asked one of sensei about this question u asked, so she quoted an example of a refrigerator, which normally have a operating life of 14-17 years, so when the fridge was spoilt 5mins ago after having bought it as recent as only 3 years ago, it becomes さっき冷蔵庫が壊れたところです。５年前に冷蔵庫を買ったばかり ~ ...

dimitri_can · Feb 11, 2010

ます-form+たて
接続　ます-form＋たて

意味: ある状態が出現したばかりであること。使える動詞はごく限られている。

fox1 · Feb 11, 2010

-たて form is usually used for cooked food.
Source: From my time spent in supermarkets.

できたて、たきたて、やきたて

dimitri_can · Feb 11, 2010

Good info, fox1

Another one i found

ペンキ塗りたてですから、触らないように気をつけなさい

dimitri_can · Feb 12, 2010

ilovepiano said:
Yes, she's really very fast and animated when she explains. 1st lesson was a shocker. I had to record the rest of the lessons and playback 20% slower to catch what she said. Like her though, clearly very experienced and organised. Very lucky to get her as sensei.

Surprised to hear that not much time spent on grammar cos we spend about 1.5-2h per lesson on new grammar and review of previous lesson's grammar. Mostly reading sentences out loud and explanation. Rest of time for kanji test and comprehension homework etc.

My class doesn't really ask many questions, if at all. Even when reviewing homework. Is my class really that good to hv hardly any questions? I thought so until recent test on JLPT 3 stuff. I did ok but apparently my class did badly enough that Kanai sensei was v surprised and not too happy. I get the impression that most classmates are like me - just finished JLPT 3 last yr and trying out for N2 or maybe N3 if progress not so good - without the benefit of any pre-knowledge of N2 bunpo. I am beginning to wonder if I have signed up for the wrong class if sensei expects us to know the bunpo already!

Thank you for your time, advice, explanation and the links! It's wonderful that you offer your help so readily. Much appreciated. Not exactly at JLPT 2 std yet so I may take a while to decipher the Japanese on the biglobe site. Haven't actually tried studying Japanese in Japanese.

Hv been recording and playing back and doing notes. Not exactly my own as copied the notes from handouts given. (I like all my grammar points consolidated in my little Japanese bible.) Didn't exactly copy but wrote down Eng version of each example and tried to translate to Japanese to help remember meaning. So far not to great effect unfortunately. don't know what else I can do tbh.

Lastly, understand the diff between た＋ところ and た＋ばかり. Thanks, and

typo?
Learning ます-form+たて at JCS. Can you shed some light on this compared to the other 2 expressions if you don't mind? Would like to know even if not in N2 test. Many thanks as always.

Another one i found.

「ます-form＋たて」 is not a grammar, but a 綴り方.

意味：ある状態が出現したばかりであること。使える動詞はごく限られている。

焼きたてのパン: 焼いたばかりという状態になってるパン
This is talking about a status of something.

Whereas, the other 2.
「た＋ばかり」と「た＋ところ」, You are expressing what happen immediately/shortly after an action has been done. 「動作が終わった間もなくのことを表します」

OK?

learning japanese

Junior Member

Supremacy Member

Junior Member

Member

Master Member

Supremacy Member

Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Member

Master Member

Master Member

Supremacy Member

Supremacy Member

Junior Member

Member

Supremacy Member

High Supremacy Member

Supremacy Member

Supremacy Member