Actuary or Law

[CaptainSingapore]

Can someone advise on this as i am honestly stuck at the crossroads

 

[CaptainSingapore]

In which field be it in singapore or the uk would there be greater prospects

-Working hours/stress
-Employability
-Demand for them in 2021

 

[jarvis]

Can only speak for lawyers - don't even know any actuary. Actuaries are like a mystical creature that I know exist but have never met anyone who is one.

The work for lawyers depends on which area of law, what sort of practice and what sort of boss you have. most people will have no idea until they actually fall into something. Some things might sound good in theory when you're in school, but those areas might not be money making so there might not be much of a demand in practice (it is still a business).

For contentious work, if you have a matter that is up for hearings (whether it be trial or interlocutory hearings which you as a junior might actually get a chance to do), you'd be working thru the night to prepare for it while you still have to juggle your other case load. In Singapore it's a fused profession whereas in UK it's split.

On the non-con side, there's the usual advisory work (e.g. general corporate) and there's the transactional work (e.g. M&A, IPO, etc). The transactional work is "sexier" because the numbers are bigger, but in reality it's usually tedious and mundane. You've got deadlines and so towards the deadlines, it will usually be madness. As a junior, you'd become one with the photocopying machine and also become an expert at comparing documents and proof reading - tedious and mundane work has to be done and it's usually done by the cheapest person.

As you get higher in the foodchain, the stress changes towards billing targets, getting clients and managing juniors

Employability - the industry is suffering now. Work is drying up in London. Singapore is not getting much better. I've also heard of big firms (both London and Singapore) letting go of people, freezing promotions, etc. Pay is also coming down. They just cannot justify the high costs especially since clients' appetite for bills is not there anymore.

As a result of the high fees, if a claim is not multi-million, parties are not going to seriously pursue it in litigation because the fees cannot be justified. It means that as a junior, you're going to find it difficult to get experience in Court - the partner is not going to entrust a multi-million dollar hearing to you as a junior. The most you can hope for is some interlocs that is not critical. Gone are the days when people can say, when I was a first year call, I stood before the Court of Appeal and argued my clients' case. These days, there are equity partners (even those regularly doing contentious work) have never even done their own trial - that's the reality.

12 years ago, it was less than 200 lawyers a year (including overseas grads). Now I think it's about 500 a year. So when you're talking about demand for law grads in 2021 I will say good luck and expect the pay to drop unless the economy picks up and the volume of work suddenly increase.

Is being a lawyer a good career? Just look at the stats and see how many people leave practice - especially the middle category. For the older category, you have to bear in mind that they grew up in the days when letters and telex were the norm and fax was advance - so you can send a letter out and forget about it for a couple of weeks whereas these days it's email and you get a call 5 minutes later (if even) to ask you what to do about that email.

The bright side is that the law degree is a good general degree which is what allows the large number of people to leave the profession and do other things.

The above bleak enough?

 

[CaptainSingapore]

I appreciate that information alot thank you! Honestly one of the more personal aspect ive ever come across on forums! Really appreciate it jarvis

 

[Wolfnet]

Can someone advise on this as i am honestly stuck at the crossroads

I might be able to chip in for the actuarial side in Singapore although it might be outdated (gave up my actuarial career more than 9 years ago).

Working hours/stress - Assuming that you are doing proper actuarial work (in general or life insurance), the hours generally are relatively good (much better than law) but with the occasional busy periods.

After you finish your degree, you will have to take quite a few more exams to get your fellowship, so expect a lot of personal study. However, do expect to be given study leave and a slight pay increase with each exam passed (my time it was around 200 for a basic level paper and 300+ for an advanced level paper). This only applies to proper actuarial roles (you can forget about getting these benefits in a bank in general).

Salary - My friend once commented that Actuarial is one of the best 'back office' job for a fresh grad. As mentioned above, should you be able to pass all your exams quickly, your salary will go up quickly. A fellow with a few years experience normally makes over 100k per annum.

That said in the long run, the earnings potential caps and only a handful will reach the top make the super big bucks. It will come to a point that the only way to go up is for the top guy to retire or step down. On the other hand, good lawyers, accountants and bankers will be able to make much more when they hit partner or senior levels (and there are more opportunities).

Employability - Can only comment for Singapore. Back in 2007 when I first started out as an intern, there was a lack of local actuarial grads. Most actuarial departments consisted of people from all around the region.

Now there is a major oversupply thanks to the local universities creating actuarial courses (used to be NTU only). There are only a certain amount of roles in Singapore (the industry only needs so many people) hence only those with excellent grades or 'connections' will normally land any role which turns up.

The reason for requiring excellent grades is very simple. Ultimately, the employer wants to hire someone who they know will be able to pass all the exams and get their fellow status (only fellows were allowed to sign off stuff). I have seen many associates who try and fail and leave the industry entirely cause that is the bare minimum to advance to more senior positions.

The actuarial exams are very difficult. There is a minimum pass mark as well as a bell curve (meaning even if u passed the paper if you are not in the top 20-30% you still fail).

Transferability of skills - Traditional actuarial work is very specialised. Once you get into it for too long, it is very hard to move to other non-actuarial roles (like finance). That said, I have seen many move successfully to finance roles like risk management although it comes with a pay cut or starting from the near bottom again.

Demand in 2021 - I am not sure. But I doubt there would be many more vacancies. As mentioned above, every insurance firm only needs so many Actuaries.

Conclusion:

My advice for you would be to study law or something else which interests you. Do note that you do not need to do actuarial science to be an actuary. You can take the examinations as a private candidate (an actuarial bachelors only give exemptions to most of the basic level papers).

So if you are still keen, then you should consider doing a few actuarial papers as a private candidate to see if it is your cup of tea.