FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) Movement

[blah]

I think the entire car discussion is a bit of a red herring and distraction. Admittedly, the twin factors of (a) car ownership being, except in very very few situations, not a necessity in Singapore and (b) ultra expensive taxation structure in Singapore means that car ownership in Singapore is typically a very expensive 'want' and not a 'need'. Having said that, I can see the appeal of fixating on car ownership as a 'flagship' of these types of conspicious, discretionary expenses which are the anethema to FIRE.

The reason why I think its a red herring is because car ownership, while a fairly large ticket item, is only part of the entire equation of expenses which needs to be factored into the FI portion and all of us will have to make decisions about what we choose to spend our money on, even the financially responsible amongst us.

Also, it is possible to be a financially responsible car owner, and the mere ownership of a car doesn't mean you're financially irresponsible. Conversely, not owning a car doesn't mean you're a paragon of financial responsibility and at some point, it just becomes virtue signalling, rather than meaningfully contributing to the discussion.

 

[revhappy]

I think the entire car discussion is a bit of a red herring and distraction. Admittedly, the twin factors of (a) car ownership being, except in very very few situations, not a necessity in Singapore and (b) ultra expensive taxation structure in Singapore means that car ownership in Singapore is typically a very expensive 'want' and not a 'need'. Having said that, I can see the appeal of fixating on car ownership as a 'flagship' of these types of conspicious, discretionary expenses which are the anethema to FIRE.

The reason why I think its a red herring is because car ownership, while a fairly large ticket item, is only part of the entire equation of expenses which needs to be factored into the FI portion and all of us will have to make decisions about what we choose to spend our money on, even the financially responsible amongst us.

Also, it is possible to be a financially responsible car owner, and the mere ownership of a car doesn't mean you're financially irresponsible. Conversely, not owning a car doesn't mean you're a paragon of financial responsibility and at some point, it just becomes virtue signalling, rather than meaningfully contributing to the discussion.

I agree, this is a tangential discussion. Since this is a FIRE thread and the main point of contention here seems to be the 2 camps who believe:
1)Retiring early without a plan is dangerous and you could go mad, so you must not retire early without a plan.
2)Retire early is better than continuing in a workplace you hate (assuming you are not really meant for working for someone, so it is not a case of change of workplace will help) even if you dont have a plan, you can figure it out.

I belong to camp 2) and believe, plan can be made, you dont have be productive the whole day. If you are a person who is used to slacking at work and at home, you can continue to do so. But add a couple of things to your daily routine, could be meditating, learning to cook your own meals, exercise, pick up some sport or activity where you can meet like minded people. I feel this is good already.

 

[chrisloh65]

I think the entire car discussion is a bit of a red herring and distraction. Admittedly, the twin factors of (a) car ownership being, except in very very few situations, not a necessity in Singapore and (b) ultra expensive taxation structure in Singapore means that car ownership in Singapore is typically a very expensive 'want' and not a 'need'. Having said that, I can see the appeal of fixating on car ownership as a 'flagship' of these types of conspicious, discretionary expenses which are the anethema to FIRE.

The reason why I think its a red herring is because car ownership, while a fairly large ticket item, is only part of the entire equation of expenses which needs to be factored into the FI portion and all of us will have to make decisions about what we choose to spend our money on, even the financially responsible amongst us.

Also, it is possible to be a financially responsible car owner, and the mere ownership of a car doesn't mean you're financially irresponsible. Conversely, not owning a car doesn't mean you're a paragon of financial responsibility and at some point, it just becomes virtue signalling, rather than meaningfully contributing to the discussion.

Good write-up indeed!
Ultimately there is lean FI, comfortable FI and luxury FI, so it depends on what the person wants and able to achieve.
If you have achieved comfortable FI or luxury FI, then the person would be able to own a car, but whether the person really owns it or not is their own personal preference, not for us to criticize.

 

[limster]

Good write-up indeed!
Ultimately there is lean FI, comfortable FI and luxury FI, so it depends on what the person wants and able to achieve.
If you have achieved comfortable FI or luxury FI, then the person would be able to own a car, but whether the person really owns it or not is their own personal preference, not for us to criticize.

agree there are different types of FI. A lot has been focused on lean FI and when is the earliest one can FI with the lowest possible amount.

Its also good to have a balanced discussion where other types of FI are discussed, including FI where car ownership is part of the expenses equation.

assuming that you have calculated your FIRE expenses at $3,000 a month, if you want to an a car to the retirement amount, a rough estimate is to add $2,000 a month to it which makes it $5k a month.

similarly, if you are one of those that claims to have only $1k expenses a month, then adding a car will make your expenses $3k a month, which might be equivalent to another person's expenses without a car

 

[revhappy]

agree there are different types of FI. A lot has been focused on lean FI and when is the earliest one can FI with the lowest possible amount.

Its also good to have a balanced discussion where other types of FI are discussed, including FI where car ownership is part of the expenses equation.

assuming that you have calculated your FIRE expenses at $3,000 a month, if you want to an a car to the retirement amount, a rough estimate is to add $2,000 a month to it which makes it $5k a month.

similarly, if you are one of those that claims to have only $1k expenses a month, then adding a car will make your expenses $3k a month, which might be equivalent to another person's expenses without a car

FI to me is about being able to maintain your preferred lifestyle, I would imagine some one who lives at 2k a month would prefer to continue to live a lifestyle of 2k a month without having a job and similarly someone who lives at 10k a month would prefer to live a lifestyle of 10k a month even after retire.

So I am not sure how lean and Fat come into picture.

Maybe lean means cutting down from normal, after retirement and Fat means scaling above normal after retirement? To me if you maintain the same level however high or low it is, then it is just FIRE.

The reason for this classification is that the equation of corpus in terms of multiples of annual expenses, changes if you plan to significantly cut down your expense or increase your expense.

For example; 50X is the corpus required for continued maintenance of lifestyle and expenses. LeanFI would mean 30X is enough, since X is going to fall, whereas Fat FIRE means 100X is needed since X is going to increase.

The reason the forums for Fat FIRE and Lean FIRE are different mainly because of the huge disparity in aspirations of the 2 groups. Lean probably are just looking at saving as much as possible to go backpacking on a shoe string budget, while Fat FIRE guys are planning to go a world cruise, buy a Lambo etc

 

[celtosaxon]

Much like BRS/FRS/ERS, FI also comes in 3 flavors - -

LeanFI = reduced spend / frugal
VanillaFI = no change / normal
FatFI = increase spend / splurge

FatFI is typically defined as a minimum of 6 figure spend annually (in the US).

On top of that you have a few variants - -

BaristaFI = hybrid spend w/ side gig
CoastFI = momentum w/ downshift

In both cases, you keep earning but no longer for the sake of FI, but in the Coast method, you still depend on that income to live on, and to preserve your future FI.

 

[limster]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...tober-prices-large-cars-open-category-2256616
Cat B and Open COE up $10k to $80k.

Next month $90k, then $100k.

 

[tkdboi]

COE premiums break S$80,000 mark for large cars, open category
SINGAPORE: Certificate of Entitlement (COE) premiums for large cars and the open category breached the S$80,000 mark as prices closed higher across the board in the latest bidding exercise on Wednesday (Oct 20). For Category A cars, or those 1,600cc and below with horsepower not exceeding...

www.channelnewsasia.com
Cat B and Open COE up $10k to $80k.
Next month $90k, then $100k.

at this rate I think I can sell my new car for a profit



Read HWZ Forum Rules!

 

[chrisloh65]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...tober-prices-large-cars-open-category-2256616
Cat B and Open COE up $10k to $80k.

Next month $90k, then $100k.

Didn't know can pump COE to $80k now with CoVid still ragging! Next target is $100k, then $150k? LOL!

 

[hwmook]

Didn't know can pump COE to $80k now with CoVid still ragging! Next target is $100k, then $150k? LOL!

COE price is always a function of supply, tight supply equal high prices. I bought my car end of last year knowing COE prices will continue to rise this year.

 

[RedsYWNA]

Raging inflation next year is expected, with the upcoming wealth taxes (likely property gains tax) and 9% GST (likely from Jan 23).

Add cost pressures from housing costs, utilities, petrol, cars, food etc......

 

[highsulphur]

Raging inflation next year is expected, with the upcoming wealth taxes (likely property gains tax) and 9% GST (likely from Jan 23).

Add cost pressures from housing costs, utilities, petrol, cars, food etc......

I can only think of staying invested as a hedge against inflation

 

[revhappy]

Came across this on Twitter. I guess there are lots of people who have hit multi millions working in tech in the Bay area. But eventually you dont really need that much money. After you cross 2M, probably more worth it to focus on other aspects of life. The marginal utility of that extra money >2M is probably not much, it is going to be wasted anyways.

 

[highsulphur]

Came across this on Twitter. I guess there are lots of people who have hit multi millions working in tech in the Bay area. But eventually you dont really need that much money. After you cross 2M, probably more worth it to focus on other aspects of life. The marginal utility of that extra money >2M is probably not much, it is going to be wasted anyways.

He should have elaborated what he did that he regretted and could it be avoided even if he didn't chase after that 10m

 

[andyhtc]

Came across this on Twitter. I guess there are lots of people who have hit multi millions working in tech in the Bay area. But eventually you dont really need that much money. After you cross 2M, probably more worth it to focus on other aspects of life. The marginal utility of that extra money >2M is probably not much, it is going to be wasted anyways.

After doing quite a lot of calculations on my retirement needs during the Covid, I also realise I don't need so much to retire.

Now I take things more easily and focus more on my health and relations. With health, I can do more things even as I age and better relations will make me happier.

 

[limster]

He should have elaborated what he did that he regretted and could it be avoided even if he didn't chase after that 10m

he seems to be hinting that he sacrificed his health (as health is the first item on his list in front of family), which frankly, is a lifestyle choice.

just because you are working doesn't mean you cannot eat healthy diet and exercise. thats called a 'false dichotomy.

I've visited friends working in tech in the bay area - they seemed to have very balanced lifestyles, they look healthy and not overweight, despite food in SF Chinatown being pretty good! Weather is great for outdoor activities like mountain biking too.

WFH has actually had a positive effect on my health - I've been using my condo Gym and pool more often. Morning swim in an empty pool before starting work helps me become more awake!

 

[Dividends]

Sounds to me that he also regrets not spending more time with his family and friends.

 

[highsulphur]

he seems to be hinting that he sacrificed his health (as health is the first item on his list in front of family), which frankly, is a lifestyle choice.

just because you are working doesn't mean you cannot eat healthy diet and exercise. thats called a 'false dichotomy.

I've visited friends working in tech in the bay area - they seemed to have very balanced lifestyles, they look healthy and not overweight, despite food in SF Chinatown being pretty good! Weather is great for outdoor activities like mountain biking too.

WFH has actually had a positive effect on my health - I've been using my condo Gym and pool more often. Morning swim in an empty pool before starting work helps me become more awake!

Sounds to me that he also regrets not spending more time with his family and friends.

Like limster mentioned, i don't think it having a job and having a balanced lifestyle are mutually exclusive.

Of course, if it means moving away from your family to work overseas alone, then maybe that will be something one might regret later on

 

[Dividends]

Like limster mentioned, i don't think it having a job and having a balanced lifestyle are mutually exclusive.

Of course, if it means moving away from your family to work overseas alone, then maybe that will be something one might regret later on

We don't know how much he works. I'm able to have a balanced lifestyle right now working out every couple of days and still having time to spend with my family. I doubt I would've been able to keep that up without being burnt out back during my days as an auditor, especially during peak periods, working past 11pm almost daily.

 

[revhappy]

The fact that he says he will continue to work, because he will feel bored otherwise, makes it look like he would have done whatever he is doing, regardless. I mean if you are remorseful of something and feel you did wrong, you would change.

I also have this belief, that we all look back in hindsight and say we should have done this and we should have done that, but actually if we are given 2nd chance to relive our lives, we will relive it exactly the same way.