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Sinkie

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Great comparison iAdvisor!

The issue is that people are very short sighted, and look at the current yearly premium difference, instead of the long term total difference.

Moreover, they use exponentially increasing term policies like saf group term and ntuc luv to do the comparison, which look very cheap now, but escalating premiums will happen at a much later age.

If everything can be put into proper perspective, singaporeans would be properly and well insured!

Not necessary, if we base on the theory of time value of money

You pay $1000 now in 2013, you will still be paying $1000 in year 2055. So in 2055, if we disregard the time value of money, you are right premium will escalate :)
 

limster

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Adding CI rider to an existing term plan basically doubles the cost of the term plan.

If you tell the agent you want Term plan, agent will persuade you to get whole life. If agent unsuccessful, he'll try to persuade you to add CI rider to Term plan.

Please see Tan Kin Lian's blog on CI insurance: http://tankinlian.com/Admin/File.aspx?ID=552&Frame=1

"what people may not know is that the illness must have reached a critical stage before a claim can be approved"...

In other words, CI rider, for double the premium, just lets you have the money a few months earlier, just before you die.. according to TKL - stage 1 cancer - no payout.

So if you insist on CI, the CI should be a smaller amount than the full coverage since your family will eventually get the remainder a few months later when you die from the CI.
 

FP_IFA

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Remind me of the time when IPP and AXA situation where IPP give their client free first year cover on an AXA life plan to attract clients.

Fundsupermart didn't inform the insurers of this. This is going to be taken off soon.
 

FP_IFA

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Hmm... the website seems to revert back to previous layout. They can't remove like that without explanation. Lets wait for some official posting.
 

DevilCurseYou

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Great comparison you have there

But if we base on time value of money so basically a term plan allows you to pay lesser (less constraint to your budget) now and even lesser in the future (due to time value of money) compared to a wholelife plan which makes you pay even more now (base on time value of money) and less or no need to pay when the money get smaller

So in this case, a wl will be more attractive if the yearly payment needed for a term plan is required to be adjusted base on inflation which is not the case.

hmm.... I created a table that factored in time value, with 5.25%, 6% and 8%. 8% still sounds reasonable because equity suits an investment of 40 years, and STI has a total return of 12.7% for the past 10 years.

Insurance%20comparison.png


It appears the investment value of spare cash from buying term is still more than the surrender value, even with 5.25% as compound rate.
 

limster

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all these calculations are generous to insurers because they haven't factored in the liquidity premium.

insurance policy is an illiquid asset with penalties on early surrendering. if you buy term and invest the rest, your equity or fund investments are far more liquid than an insurance policy.

with buy term invest the rest, you have the option of selling your share and fund investments to raise cash to buy, say, property for investment. you have a lot more flexibility.

Whole Life policies are more suitable for some, Term policies are more suitable for some. If you are on the internet reading up about investments, etc, have confidence in yourself that you can buy term and invest the rest.

On the other hand, saw the news that a family invested close to $1m in Gold Guarantee. For such people, maybe buy term invest the rest not such a good idea, better to lock up as much of their free cash as possible in whole life policy for their own good.
 

iAdvisor

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Adding CI rider to an existing term plan basically doubles the cost of the term plan.

If you tell the agent you want Term plan, agent will persuade you to get whole life. If agent unsuccessful, he'll try to persuade you to add CI rider to Term plan.

Please see Tan Kin Lian's blog on CI insurance: http://tankinlian.com/Admin/File.aspx?ID=552&Frame=1

"what people may not know is that the illness must have reached a critical stage before a claim can be approved"...

In other words, CI rider, for double the premium, just lets you have the money a few months earlier, just before you die.. according to TKL - stage 1 cancer - no payout.

So if you insist on CI, the CI should be a smaller amount than the full coverage since your family will eventually get the remainder a few months later when you die from the CI.

"If the illness reaches a critical stage, the insured person will die
within a few years of receiving the payout." - quoted from Mr Tan's blog.

I'm not sure how Mr Tan define critical stage, but I would like to show people what are the common misunderstanding in Critical Illness.

Critical illness (CI) in term/life policy usually cover 30-31 items. It will include

Terminal illness which means
"The conclusive diagnosis of an illness that is expected to result in death of the insured within 12 months from the date of diagnosis. This diagnosis must be supported by a specialist and confirmed by XXXX appointed Registered Medical Practitioner.

Terminal illness in the presence of HIV infection is excluded."

Also End stage liver Disease/Failure
"End stage liver failure as evidenced by all of the following:
permanent jaundice; Ascites; and Hepatic encephalopathy.

Liver disease secondary to alcohol or drug abuse is excluded."

also End stage lung disease/failure
"End stage lung disease, causing chronic respiratory failure.

This diagnosis must be supported by evidence of all of the following:
FEV1 test results which are consistently less than 1 litre; permanent supplementary oxygen therapy for hypoxemia; arterial blood gas analyses with partial oxygen pressures of 55mmHg or less (PaO2 ≤ 55mmHg); and Dyspnea at rest.

The diagnosis must be confirmed by a respiratory physician."

These above are few of those that IMO, patient might passed on after a fews (even with treatment)

But what about the rest of the 27-28 of critical illness specified?
Most common misunderstanding is the major cancer definition.
Firstly we got to understand a little more about cancer. It is mainly categorize under 2 form, benign and malignant. Under Benign, there are 3 stage call Carcinoma-in-Situ (CIN) level 1, 2 and 3. Under benign, all levels, are not claimable. Recall the famous lady, with 3 pru policy and no payout? These conditions are also known as early stage cancers, which are not covered. So lets look at what are covered.

Major cancer
"A malignant tumour characterised by the uncontrolled growth and spread of malignant cells with invasion and destruction of normal tissue.

This diagnosis must be supported by histological evidence of malignancy and confirmed by an oncologist or pathologist.

The following are excluded:

tumours showing the malignant changes of carcinoma-in-situ and tumours which are histologically described as pre-malignant or non-invasive, including, but not limited to: Carcinoma-in-Situ of the Breasts, Cervical Dysplasia CIN-1, CIN-2 and CIN-3;
hyperkeratoses, basal cell and squamous skin cancers, and melanomas of less than 1.5mm Breslow thickness, or less than Clark Level 3, unless there is evidence of metastases;
prostate cancers histologically described as TNM Classification T1a or T1b or Prostate cancers of another equivalent or lesser classification, T1N0M0 Papillary micro-carcinoma of the Thyroid less than 1 cm in diameter, papillary micro-carcinoma of the Bladder, and chronic lymphocytic leukaemia less than RAI Stage 3; and
all tumours in the presence of HIV infection."

The definition "A malignant tumour characterised by the uncontrolled growth and spread of malignant cells with invasion and destruction of normal tissue."
The keywords are malignant, uncontrolled growth and spread (of bad cells), destruction(of gd cells). It did not state the level of cancer in order to be claimable. It is commonly thought that only a 3rd or 4th stage cancer patient will match the criteria.

Usually, I would let client know that once its malignant, and he/she required to go for chemo or radiotherapy, it will be claimable. This doesn't means that the patient will die after a few years. Please do some research or ask people around you (working in hospital as nurse or doc NOT coroner), how many survived. With ever advancing medical science, do you think the survival rate will goes up or down?

Most importantly, we only look at 4 items so far. what are the rest? Will patients dies after afew years after, for example,
COMA - persist for at least 96hrs,
Deafness - Loss of at least 80 decibels in all frequencies of hearing,
heart attack, HIV, Kidney failure (we all know patients can live very long on this), Loss of speech, Major burns -3rd degree, 20% of the surface, Muscular dystrophy, parkinson, Stroke (People can recover from this), etc.

Do check out NTUC Income | Singapore Life Insurance | Term Life Insurance - NTUC Income LUV, definition from NTUC (where Mr Tan work previously) for the details.

Next, from the post,

"Invest your savings in a low cost investment fund to earn an attractive yield. For example, if you invest $500 a month over 20 or 30 years and earn a yield of 4% per annum, the accumulated savings will be $179,000 and $336,000 respectively. This is likely to be much more than the amount that can be covered under an expensive critical illness policy."

If a usual person man/woman, starts their career at 25-27. They would likely to be in their 50s or 60s soon. This also means that they should be retiring soon. So if such funds are for retirement AND medical, IF, it something bad do happened, what will happen financially? A significant amount will be used for medical, then what is left for retirement? Not to mention, if your investment failed, or not performing up to standard?

With proper financial planning, just a portion of that savings, to be used for protection insurance, it would not affect your overall target significantly, at the same time, it provide an additional payout shall such event happen.
 

iAdvisor

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hmm.... I created a table that factored in time value, with 5.25%, 6% and 8%. 8% still sounds reasonable because equity suits an investment of 40 years, and STI has a total return of 12.7% for the past 10 years.

Insurance%20comparison.png


It appears the investment value of spare cash from buying term is still more than the surrender value, even with 5.25% as compound rate.

You are using a life plan for money making purposes. Like I say, this is never for such purpose. Some agents, in order to meet their KPIs, structure products or highlight certain features that are favorable to the client in order to close the deal.

Particularly, in this comparison, what I want to show is that a WL plan is not a rubbish as claimed by some. I do not suggest that WL is more superior or better product. Once again, they are different products for different purposes.

Look at your table, if someone buy the term, and invest the rest and @ 70 years old + 1 day, found out one kidney failure (the other not in so gd condition), and this person has to be prepare to go for dialysis treatment that cost more than $2500 monthly. The term has expired. By investing the difference, he/she only has 100+ to 140k+ more to prepare for this issue. Is that enough? If he/she has gotten a life plan, at that stage, he can choose not to cash out/terminate the policy there will be a payout of 200k sooner or later. He got an option.

As we grow older, more issues might occurred. This is not someone with healthy body would have really planned for. Certain conditions are prolong illnesses, or problems that will only worsen as you age. There might be chances that you would wish to have a longer coverage. That's where your WL plan will be of great worth.

According to your table also, it means that we will have to have a constant investment profit of more than 6% (@6% only 140k vs 200k payout) inorder for you to be 'self-insured' @ the same amount. likely to be 7%+. Can anyone guaranteed such performance? how about 5%? If anyone, would be able to guaranteed say just 4% pa, for 25 yrs, do let us know of this superb opportunity. (I only heard about Indonesian gov bond @ 6% but only for locals).

What I'm driving is that, there are alot of unexpected events that could happened. I believe and agreed that one should have certain limit on insurance premium payment. But if done properly and early, one can use just a fraction of the savings to ensure a good protection plan is in place, and as the salary increases, most of those can be channel into money making tools.
 

Sinkie

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You are using a life plan for money making purposes. Like I say, this is never for such purpose. Some agents, in order to meet their KPIs, structure products or highlight certain features that are favorable to the client in order to close the deal.

Particularly, in this comparison, what I want to show is that a WL plan is not a rubbish as claimed by some. I do not suggest that WL is more superior or better product. Once again, they are different products for different purposes.

Look at your table, if someone buy the term, and invest the rest and @ 70 years old + 1 day, found out one kidney failure (the other not in so gd condition), and this person has to be prepare to go for dialysis treatment that cost more than $2500 monthly. The term has expired. By investing the difference, he/she only has 100+ to 140k+ more to prepare for this issue. Is that enough? If he/she has gotten a life plan, at that stage, he can choose not to cash out/terminate the policy there will be a payout of 200k sooner or later. He got an option.

As we grow older, more issues might occurred. This is not someone with healthy body would have really planned for. Certain conditions are prolong illnesses, or problems that will only worsen as you age. There might be chances that you would wish to have a longer coverage. That's where your WL plan will be of great worth.

According to your table also, it means that we will have to have a constant investment profit of more than 6% (@6% only 140k vs 200k payout) inorder for you to be 'self-insured' @ the same amount. likely to be 7%+. Can anyone guaranteed such performance? how about 5%? If anyone, would be able to guaranteed say just 4% pa, for 25 yrs, do let us know of this superb opportunity. (I only heard about Indonesian gov bond @ 6% but only for locals).

What I'm driving is that, there are alot of unexpected events that could happened. I believe and agreed that one should have certain limit on insurance premium payment. But if done properly and early, one can use just a fraction of the savings to ensure a good protection plan is in place, and as the salary increases, most of those can be channel into money making tools.

but can invest and buy prushield? will prushield cover such outpatience benefit?

http://www.prudential.com.sg/export/sites/default/prudential_en_sg/resources/downloads/ebrochures/PRUshield_eBrochure_english.pdf

pbc7d3g.png


but just that up to 78 years old, then jialat le, prushield no more liao

but by then you should have children who are able to support u right?
 

iAdvisor

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but can invest and buy prushield? will prushield cover such outpatience benefit?

http://www.prudential.com.sg/export...ds/ebrochures/PRUshield_eBrochure_english.pdf

pbc7d3g.png


but just that up to 78 years old, then jialat le, prushield no more liao

but by then you should have children who are able to support u right?

Yes, shield plan can cover certain out-patient need. But not all. Namely, Outpatient Cancer Treatment
(Radiotherapy, Stereotactic Radiotherapy, Chemotherapy, Immunotherapy)

Outpatient Renal Failure Treatment
(Renal Dialysis, Erythropoietin)

Approved Immunosuppressant
Drugs for Organ Transplant.

So issue like stroke, heart attack, TPDs, etc are cost for consideration.

Shield plan last more than 100 yrs old. (scroll down the page. :))

Good that you brought up this - Children support. I'm not sure how old are you now, but are you supporting your parents? If yes, how much? are your parents healthy enough?

Put yourself in your future kids shoe. If one day, your parents are sick, and needed more financial support from you and your siblings. Will you not feel the slightest financial burden/pressure? By then, you might have a house, car, kids, wife and others to support, will you still be able to provide even $500 monthly to your parents without any issue?

So similarly, it will be a tough time for them if we are looking/depending on our kids to support us financially. The old chinese saying of 养儿防老, is going to be a irresponsble parents doing. (sorry if some are offended. this is my opinion) With ever raising cost of living, foreigners, etc, it can only gets tougher to live in singapore as times goes by. If we, at this stage, is already planning for our kids to take on such burden in the future, I really feel sad for our next generation.
 

Sinkie

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Yes, shield plan can cover certain out-patient need. But not all. Namely, Outpatient Cancer Treatment
(Radiotherapy, Stereotactic Radiotherapy, Chemotherapy, Immunotherapy)

Outpatient Renal Failure Treatment
(Renal Dialysis, Erythropoietin)

Approved Immunosuppressant
Drugs for Organ Transplant.

So issue like stroke, heart attack, TPDs, etc are cost for consideration.

Shield plan last more than 100 yrs old. (scroll down the page. :))

Good that you brought up this - Children support. I'm not sure how old are you now, but are you supporting your parents? If yes, how much? are your parents healthy enough?

Put yourself in your future kids shoe. If one day, your parents are sick, and needed more financial support from you and your siblings. Will you not feel the slightest financial burden/pressure? By then, you might have a house, car, kids, wife and others to support, will you still be able to provide even $500 monthly to your parents without any issue?

So similarly, it will be a tough time for them if we are looking/depending on our kids to support us financially. The old chinese saying of 养儿防老, is going to be a irresponsble parents doing. (sorry if some are offended. this is my opinion) With ever raising cost of living, foreigners, etc, it can only gets tougher to live in singapore as times goes by. If we, at this stage, is already planning for our kids to take on such burden in the future, I really feel sad for our next generation.

but these illness, critical illness insurance will also give one lump sum right?

well, worst case scenario will be your children are brats that dont work but just live and waste their life away and by 30-40 years old still taking money from their parents.

well, using me as example my father got cancer 4-5 years ago, he didnt have any insurance previously, and i and my siblings were not really earning alot either and mother was unemployed so we went to those cancer center asking for subsidy and somehow we got it, my father treatment per month was like less than 1k which can be used to offset from his medishield so basically manageable fee every month.

the real fee came in during his last few days in the hospital + funeral which after all the white gold, was like 5-6k in cash that we need to fork out first which is further offset by his cpf cash payout after he passed away.

net net after ward i think still left some money though.

well, you could also say, what happened if i dont qualify for subsidy? then it just means your children are and should be able to afford the treatment too.
 
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limster

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Regarding CI, the issue is why CI results in a doubling of the premium when most of cases CI is basically giving payment a few months early before the insured passed away.

I'm sure the insurers have the claim history figures and know that some of the listed CI are so super low probability events.

Take 20% 3rd degree burns. If you are caught in a major fire, mostly you die of smoke inhalation or smoke inhalation causes brain damage which is claimable as a separate CI. Take for example the fertiliser plant that exploded in US. If the fire burns 20% of your body, you have no strength to escape already.... most likely to pass away. Furthermore industrial accident, the employer has separate insurance policy for industrial accident.

Coma, insurers also have the claim history of number of people in Coma for >96 hr that manage to 'wake up'. Most often they pull the plug. If someone wakes up from long coma, it's called a 'miracle' for a reason....


http://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_w...acts_Singapore/Principal_Causes_of_Death.html
 

Sinkie

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Regarding CI, the issue is why CI results in a doubling of the premium when most of cases CI is basically giving payment a few months early before the insured passed away.

I'm sure the insurers have the claim history figures and know that some of the listed CI are so super low probability events.

Take 20% 3rd degree burns. If you are caught in a major fire, mostly you die of smoke inhalation or smoke inhalation causes brain damage which is claimable as a separate CI. Take for example the fertiliser plant that exploded in US. If the fire burns 20% of your body, you have no strength to escape already.... most likely to pass away. Furthermore industrial accident, the employer has separate insurance policy for industrial accident.

Coma, insurers also have the claim history of number of people in Coma for >96 hr that manage to 'wake up'. Most often they pull the plug. If someone wakes up from long coma, it's called a 'miracle' for a reason....


Principal Causes of Death | Ministry of Health

i wonder why government never help to sell us cheap insurance if insurance is essential
 

DevilCurseYou

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You are using a life plan for money making purposes. Like I say, this is never for such purpose. Some agents, in order to meet their KPIs, structure products or highlight certain features that are favorable to the client in order to close the deal.

IIRC, you threw one a table, showing that the surrender value of whole life has surrender value 107424, compared to the extra 16k paid. My table was created in response to show that you failed to factor in the time value of money. By talking about surrender, arent you the one starting the talk on money making purpose of whole life?

Look at your table, if someone buy the term, and invest the rest and @ 70 years old + 1 day, found out one kidney failure (the other not in so gd condition), and this person has to be prepare to go for dialysis treatment that cost more than $2500 monthly. The term has expired. By investing the difference, he/she only has 100+ to 140k+ more to prepare for this issue. Is that enough? If he/she has gotten a life plan, at that stage, he can choose not to cash out/terminate the policy there will be a payout of 200k sooner or later. He got an option.

An average Singapore female that has survived to age 70, has 12.6% chance of dying by age 75. This average is the aggregate of smoker and non-smoker, healthy and non-healthy female. So given the rigor that insurance has in underwriting, the chance of dying between 70 and 75 is actually less than 12.6%.

If the female continues to survive, the investment portion can continue to compound, at a rate faster than whole life, percentage and absolute wise. There is a good chance of the compounding overtaking the total death benefit by the time of death.

Do also remember to factor in time value of money and liquidity in your comparison. Investments are relatively liquid and can be easily converted to cash to cover expense. Whole life is only paid at death, and in the meantime, if the insured is short on cash, they have to borrow, and for some, they are looking at 24% interest.


According to your table also, it means that we will have to have a constant investment profit of more than 6% (@6% only 140k vs 200k payout) inorder for you to be 'self-insured' @ the same amount. likely to be 7%+. Can anyone guaranteed such performance? how about 5%? If anyone, would be able to guaranteed say just 4% pa, for 25 yrs, do let us know of this superb opportunity. (I only heard about Indonesian gov bond @ 6% but only for locals).

To start with, insurance investment return of 5.25% is not fixed either. Insurer themselves also invest partly in equity, and hence there are variability to their return. I also believe the surrender benefit at age 70, 107,424 is a projected return, and not guaranteed return...

Just a few months ago, Olam guaranteed annual return of 8%, for debt of 5 years. Greek government guaranteed annual return of 10%, for investment of 10 years. So yes, returns of such scale exist, and of course, you have to factor in loss from default.

My table is created on the basis of long term return, not annual fixed return. My table, neither does the insurer guarantees the return next year will be 5.25/6/8%. Law of law numbers will guarantee that if you invest long enough, your investment will earn at the rate close to market.

You seems to have ignored the last column of my table in your argument, which compounds at 8%. It will show that even at the age of 70, the investment portion is more than death benefit. Hence, the BTIR investor will have both the amount, and liquidity; truly superior to whole life insurance.

Is 8% reasonable? S&P 500 has a total return of 10% annually for the past 25 years. This 10%, has included losses from default. Apparently, these defaults are not enough to kill S&P 500, due to the magic of portfolio. Yes, the investment will be rather heavy on equity. Does the person need the liquidity from age 30 to age 70 in the first place when it is not offered by whole life? The expense ratio for traditional ETF is 0.3%, far from unit trust or life insurer participating fund, which is looking at more than 1%, probably 2-3%.

Why did you bring self-insured into the picture? for age 30 to 70, both plans offer the same protection quantum, using insurer.

What I'm driving is that, there are alot of unexpected events that could happened. I believe and agreed that one should have certain limit on insurance premium payment. But if done properly and early, one can use just a fraction of the savings to ensure a good protection plan is in place, and as the salary increases, most of those can be channel into money making tools.

Yes, uncertainty is part of life, and so perhaps, we should be riding part of the uncertainty, expecting some fluctuation. It is too costly to insure everything to have a constant life. We have law of large number to provide certainty into long term.
 

iAdvisor

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Regarding CI, the issue is why CI results in a doubling of the premium when most of cases CI is basically giving payment a few months early before the insured passed away.

I'm sure the insurers have the claim history figures and know that some of the listed CI are so super low probability events.

Take 20% 3rd degree burns. If you are caught in a major fire, mostly you die of smoke inhalation or smoke inhalation causes brain damage which is claimable as a separate CI. Take for example the fertiliser plant that exploded in US. If the fire burns 20% of your body, you have no strength to escape already.... most likely to pass away. Furthermore industrial accident, the employer has separate insurance policy for industrial accident.

Coma, insurers also have the claim history of number of people in Coma for >96 hr that manage to 'wake up'. Most often they pull the plug. If someone wakes up from long coma, it's called a 'miracle' for a reason....


Principal Causes of Death | Ministry of Health

Firstly, what is your evidence in support that the doubling of premium is due to payment given afew months before the insured passed away?

"I'm sure the insurers have the claim history figures and know that some of the listed CI are so super low probability events." I have to agree with this to certain extends, else, if its super high in happening, whats the point of insurance? If you consider stroke, cancer, heart attack are super low probability of happening to anyone, its your opinion.

For the burn, its not 20% of your body, but 20% of the surface of the body. again, if you think that, having 20% of the surface burnt means death, i can't comment if thats right, as I'm not a doctor. But at least, i know that many such industrial fire occurred, and there are survival at times, maybe not always, but there are survival.

96 hours of coma is only 4days. You sure if someone deary of yours is in coma, for 4 days, you will pull the plug? MY grandpa fell and after being declared brain dead for almost a week, the family then decided to pull the plug. I dun think you need a miracle for someone to wakes up after 4days.

I'm not saying those above scenarios are impossible to happen. The concept of insurance is to ensure if such event happens, if survived (not neccessary low chance), you can be less financially burdened.
 
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