Casting asperation / Character Assassination / Inciting other countries issue to Sg

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Orionz

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https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/posts/149708339/

I assume senior mod / admin can view the deleted thread...

What's the problem? Don't think i broke any rules.
Are "what if" thought experiment threads prohibited?
They are plentiful in edmw, alive and thriving.

Somemore mine was a level headed post with clear disclaimer and detailed explanation such that nobody can misunderstand.

Appeal for senior mod / admin to review please.
 
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cranthir

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https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/posts/149708339/

I assume senior mod / admin can view the deleted thread...

What's the problem? Don't think i broke any rules.
Are "what if" thought experiment threads prohibited?
They are plentiful in edmw, alive and thriving.

Somemore mine was a level headed post with clear disclaimer and detailed explanation such that nobody can misunderstand.

Appeal for senior mod / admin to review please.

Does it mean that I put HYPOTHESIS / Disclaimer / thought experiment mean anything goes and you can have say anything you want without any sense of propriety ?

if its a thought experiment, you do not have to namedrop PAP and PM LHL and point to Singapore context.

Furthermore you post this in EDMW which is anything goes forum and its easy to for the discussion to degenerate instead of in a more serious forum

if this is a thought experiment, you can just say if you are a PM of a country without name dropping any one

or you can just refer it directly to the actual incident in Israel which is where every one can see is where the incident is coming from.

it is possible.

just look at israel, they thought hamas build up was just an "exercise" and "show of force", didnt think they will really attack
But instead you choose to direct this at Singapore for really no good reasons ?

if you have asked our members what if this situation have happened in Singapore, I would also have let it pass
But your thread is "Imagine PAP is losing power already"
not "Imagine you as PM is losing power already"

We generally do not protect politicians or political parties but maybe there should be a line at wild conjectures with zero basis and trying to come out with false narrative.

There has been many accusations by others of you being based in foreign country, I do not want to add on to that speculations.
We take FICA here seriously, Foreign Interference. (Countermeasures) Act (FICA) FICA deals with attempts by foreign actors to manipulate our domestic politics and disrupt social cohesion. Our politics are for Singaporeans to decide and foreigners should not be allowed to interfere.

If you are based in Singapore, its not in your interest to keep stirring disharmony here.
If you are not based here, why would you want to keep stirring disharmony here?

I will make it clear for what is allowed and not allowed, if there is something happening overseas
you are not allowed in the name of HYPOTHESIS / Disclaimer / thought experiment to insinuate or defame or stir disharmony without any basis.
if there is some Anwar type scandal overseas, you cannot just say imagine so and so in WP are doing this.
if there is some race riots overseas, you cannot just say imagine so and so in Singapore are doing this.

I hope this is clear

you can also refer to https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...-msm-reported-info-is-infractionable.6958723/
 
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Intrinion

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I find that the thread title of this thread succinctly summarises up why we have taken action on your original thread.

“Casting asperation / Character Assassination / Inciting other countries issue to Sg“
 

Orionz

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@cranthir @Intrinion

I am not going to further futilely defend anything, I will have to accept the infraction as it is as I am bound by the terms of use.

But it remains unclear what is allowed and what is not allowed? If there i is a shift in the forum's rules or lenience, i'm happy to accept it but please make it crystal clear.

1. Is the hypothetical discussion of politicians and political parties in EDMW, allowed or not? (e.g. what if x happen, what would PAP or Minister X do)

1a) if it is allowed, it remains prohibited to use the context of a global current affair? (like the Anwar example @cranthir gave?)

1b) if it is not allowed, does it extend to non-SG politicians / political parties? (e.g. what if x happen, what would the democrats do)
 
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Orionz

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@cranthir also brought out a big elephant in the room...

2. How is HWZ going to implement FICA?
FICA is notoriously broad-worded and serves to protect Singapore from hostile information campaigns (HIC). Unless directed by MHA, how are you going to decide if FICA applies or not?

2a) How do you determine the existence of a HIC? i.e. What lines are not to be crossed, else mods/admins will no longer consider me as an individual expressing my opinions and deem me as part of a "campaign"?

2b) How do you determine "foreign source"? Does that mean that if a member is currently accessing HWZ outside of Singapore, he would have additional rules to be careful about? Or does this only apply to non-SGCs?

Quick reminder, the Singapore diaspora sits at almost 10%, which means 1 out of 10 Singapore citizens live outside of Singapore. I believe they are also entitled full constitutional rights including the right to opine on domestic affairs.

p.s. Look, before you say I'm trying to twist and wiggle my way through again. I'm not.
I'm trying to understand the (change in) rules and stay compliant.
 
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Intrinion

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To address the elephant in this room.

There is a fine but distinct difference between posting hypotheticals and subversion. Your thread was regarded as tending towards the latter by planting seeds of doubt and distrust through hypotheticals as well as casting aspersions towards the integrity of our government and our leaders - to do what is right for their people in times of uncertainty and adversity.

That, in itself, is enough to warrant the removal of the thread and the issuance of the warning based on the thread content.

I would also like to add on that “foreign influence” need not necessary mean that the act is done overseas but rather persons who covertly and knowingly act against Singapore’s public interest on behalf of a foreign principal.
 

cranthir

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@cranthir @Intrinion

I am not going to further futilely defend anything, I will have to accept the infraction as it is as I am bound by the terms of use.

But it remains unclear what is allowed and what is not allowed? If there i is a shift in the forum's rules or lenience, i'm happy to accept it but please make it crystal clear.

1. Is the hypothetical discussion of politicians and political parties in EDMW, allowed or not? (e.g. what if x happen, what would PAP or Minister X do)

1a) if it is allowed, it remains prohibited to use the context of a global current affair? (like the Anwar example @cranthir gave?)

1b) if it is not allowed, does it extend to non-SG politicians / political parties? (e.g. what if x happen, what would the democrats do)

you are willing to accept the infraction
but its not clear to you so do you know what are you accepting or not?

if you do not know, what are the chance you will reoffend?

1 you are right that there are many hypothetical discussions around.
how your thread stand out is the specificity of asking other members what they will do if they are LHL
its one thing to ask members what will they do, (fine, nothing to do with LHL)
or what they think LHL will do (fine this is their opinion), but asking members to imagine they are LHL

this is generally regard as casual forum with members who like to mouth off, isit right to ask them to imagine they are LHL, are they LHL?
EDMW is a anything goes forum and its easy to for the discussion to degenerate into libel from such a false narrative

1a) this is not about current affairs at all, if every time there is a corruption cases or sexual scandal overseas, you can mud sling our public figures isit fair?
this is about not mouthing off without proof.

1b) refer to 1

@cranthir also brought out a big elephant in the room...

2. How is HWZ going to implement FICA?
FICA is notoriously broad-worded and serves to protect Singapore from hostile information campaigns (HIC). Unless directed by MHA, how are you going to decide if FICA applies or not?

2a) How do you determine the existence of a HIC? i.e. What lines are not to be crossed, else mods/admins will no longer consider me as an individual expressing my opinions and deem me as part of a "campaign"?

2b) How do you determine "foreign source"? Does that mean that if a member is currently accessing HWZ outside of Singapore, he would have additional rules to be careful about? Or does this only apply to non-SGCs?

Quick reminder, the Singapore diaspora sits at almost 10%, which means 1 out of 10 Singapore citizens live outside of Singapore. I believe they are also entitled full constitutional rights including the right to opine on domestic affairs.

p.s. Look, before you say I'm trying to twist and wiggle my way through again. I'm not.
I'm trying to understand the (change in) rules and stay compliant.

2) "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

There are many passionate defenders of foreign interests in these forums, some called them foreign agents. Mostly I believe they are just Singaporeans who feel strongly about other countries.
because even if they are foreign agents manipulating public opinions, it is mostly about foreign affairs, they rarely venture into domestic affairs and it will super obvious when they do.

2a) We never said we regard you as a HIC.

2b) refer to Smod reply above

If you live in a glasshouse, will you throw stones? but if you do not live in the glasshouse, isit fair for you to throw stones??
right to opine on domestic affairs = right to cast asperation with zero proof ?
Being overseas give you the right to break the law or conduct libel because you cant be sue or called out in court?

You should keep to the rules not try to ask for the line so you can just toe it without falling afoul

if you keep only wanting to toe the line, its a matter of time before you cross it

you can pm me if you want to carry on this discussion.
 

Orionz

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@Intrinion I already said I am not fighting the deletion and infraction, so there is no need to accuse me of subversion, a serious offence of treasonous nature regulated by ISA.

Your moderater brought out the FICA law and remind me that this is taken seriously. I understand that you guys are working close with the authorities to ensure legal compliance. So I am simply asking, what are we allowed and not allowed to post. And if there is a difference for people of different location, nationalities, etc.

@cranthir i have made it very clear, i accept it, it has been reviewed and duly rejected. Fair enough. But if you want people to follow the rules, I think it is very fair to just make it clear, what is allowed and what is not.

This is not the first time I ask the team to define the rules more clearly. Same goes for namings of discriminatory nature such as CECA, Putinmao, etc. I was the one who asked the team to post a sticky guideline on this, which @Dragon was kind to make - https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/important-edmw-must-reads.2005501/post-144485156. So the rules are crystal clear.

I am not someone who toes around the rules once they are clearly established and annouced. But if you don't want to define the rules, then of course people will feel indignant.
 

Orionz

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@cranthir I am sure you are trying to do a fair job in moderating, but sometimes you make it sounds like you are moderating for the incumbent.

There are people who are both for and against the establishment. Both have rights to opine. If there is a scandal, and i feel strongly about it, why can I not opine against the establishment? Hypothesis is called a hypothesis because it is not factual, so what proof, what aspersion are you talking about?

I will just stop at here. Apologies if feelings are hurt.

But again, i hope the team just makes it clear and announce the rules if they have changed again.
 

cranthir

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@cranthir I am sure you are trying to do a fair job in moderating, but sometimes you make it sounds like you are moderating for the incumbent.

There are people who are both for and against the establishment. Both have rights to opine. If there is a scandal, and i feel strongly about it, why can I not opine against the establishment? Hypothesis is called a hypothesis because it is not factual, so what proof, what aspersion are you talking about?

I will just stop at here. Apologies if feelings are hurt.

But again, i hope the team just makes it clear and announce the rules if they have changed again.
I wrote a lot of examples and counter examples to illustrate what is acceptable and what isnt.

I do not know why it is not clear to you?

Most people instinctively follow the rules without problem or if they do not, after being warned they follow it even if they do not agreed

here you keep saying you want to follow the rules but that its not clear to you.

a simple rule of thumb is are you trying to create trouble, if you really not trying to create trouble then it is straightforward enough


its not about being incumbent or not, if somebody make a baseless hypothesis about WP, they will be warned too.

Hypothesis is a not free for all get of jail card.

1 more example, there is a news on prostitutes, can you just refer to a member and say hypothetically, suppose so and so member's mother is prostitute, what do you think?

Not allowed at all, this is common sense

PM me if you still do not understand. Locking this thread.
 

Intrinion

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Your posting location or nationality doesn’t matter.

We moderate based on the posted content body - the impact has to Singapore and its way of life.

We encourage all users to post responsibly on our boards.

Hope this clarifies
 
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