Withholding Tax Refund

BBCWatcher

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1. Why is a U.S. Treasury fund so interesting? It’s a fairly odd vehicle to choose for residents of Singapore.

2. If you even want a U.S. Treasury fund, why don’t you pick an Irish domiciled and London listed one? It won’t have any U.S. withholding tax, so you won’t have to worry about trying to get that tax refunded (or the loss associated with loaning tax receipts at 0%).
 

rayzzzz82

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1. Why is a U.S. Treasury fund so interesting? It’s a fairly odd vehicle to choose for residents of Singapore.

2. If you even want a U.S. Treasury fund, why don’t you pick an Irish domiciled and London listed one? It won’t have any U.S. withholding tax, so you won’t have to worry about trying to get that tax refunded (or the loss associated with loaning tax receipts at 0%).

2. Which Irish domiciled and London listed us Treasury fund would you recommend? I would appreciate if you can be more direct by refraining answering with a question as it would be confusing.
 

BBCWatcher

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2. Which Irish domiciled and London listed us Treasury fund would you recommend? I would appreciate if you can be more direct by refraining answering with a question as it would be confusing.
I don’t recommend any U.S. Treasury funds for most residents of Singapore. However, if you must, IBTA is a 1 to 3 year U.S. Treasury fund. (And there’s a distributing variant: IBTS.)
 

rayzzzz82

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I don’t recommend any U.S. Treasury funds for most residents of Singapore. However, if you must, IBTA is a 1 to 3 year U.S. Treasury fund. (And there’s a distributing variant: IBTS.)
I have also looked at the two ETF. But somehow

1. There is still a withholding tax of 15% although not 30%

2. I compare the return for the last five year. After including the dividend (not deducting 30% withholding tax), SCHO perform about 30% better than the two ETF. I am not sure of the reasons.
 

BBCWatcher

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I have also looked at the two ETF. But somehow
1. There is still a withholding tax of 15% although not 30%
1. Where are you seeing that?

2. If there is, it’s still 15% instead of 30%. That’s more efficient (see below), and the fund manager should handle withholding and refunds for you rather than broker or IRS antics that you have to worry about.
2. I compare the return for the last five year. After including the dividend (not deducting 30% withholding tax), SCHO perform about 30% better than the two ETF. I am not sure of the reasons.
3. SCHO had a 2 for 1 share split on October 10, 2024. Are you properly accounting for the share split?

4. Schwab and Blackrock iShares post/report their 1, 3, and 5 year annualized returns. IBTA reports marginally higher performance percentages (assuming I’m looking at the same end dates for reporting, which is a little unclear with Schwab; I am looking at pre-tax for Schwab, which is correct since the after-tax figures would be rough estimates for a U.S. person).

5. Please note that SCHO is a U.S. estate taxable asset. IBTA and IBTS are not (when held by a non-U.S. person), nor are directly held U.S. Treasuries (ditto). When you wrap them inside a U.S. domiciled fund then they become estate taxable.
 

rayzzzz82

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1. Where are you seeing that?

2. If there is, it’s still 15% instead of 30%. That’s more efficient (see below), and the fund manager should handle withholding and refunds for you rather than broker or IRS antics that you have to worry about.

3. SCHO had a 2 for 1 share split on October 10, 2024. Are you properly accounting for the share split?

4. Schwab and Blackrock iShares post/report their 1, 3, and 5 year annualized returns. IBTA reports marginally higher performance percentages (assuming I’m looking at the same end dates for reporting, which is a little unclear with Schwab; I am looking at pre-tax for Schwab, which is correct since the after-tax figures would be rough estimates for a U.S. person).

5. Please note that SCHO is a U.S. estate taxable asset. IBTA and IBTS are not (when held by a non-U.S. person), nor are directly held U.S. Treasuries (ditto). When you wrap them inside a U.S. domiciled fund then they become estate taxable.
2 Isn't Ireland domiciled ETF being taxed 15% (maybe not withholding tax)?

3.
myACmih
.

Have added the dividend to the price and the return inclusive of dividend after five year is higher for SCHO

4. .

Likewise, Dividends collective for the last ten year is higher compared SCHO to IBTS

5. I am not sure what you mean by this. If I am non-US and when I invest in US ETF is I will be taxed by 30% and likewise for Ireland-domiciled ETF, the tax is 15%. Referring to the following extracted from https://www.etf.com/sections/etf-basics/bond-etf-taxation-3-things-you-need-know, so how does this play into picture from non-US?
  • U.S. Government Bond ETFs: Exempt from State Taxes
    Because U.S. Treasurys are tax-free at the state and local level, interest payments from sovereign bond ETFs that hold U.S. Treasurys are also exempt from state and local income taxes. They are subject to federal taxes, however.
 
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BBCWatcher

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2 Isn't Ireland domiciled ETF being taxed 15% (maybe not withholding tax)?
That's the Ireland-U.S. tax treaty rate on stock dividends. Bonds, including U.S. Treasuries, should be eligible for the portfolio interest exemption that's not unique to Ireland. The central problem for these purposes is that SCHO is a U.S. domiciled fund, and therefore at the fund level there's a (refundable, without interest) withholding tax which adds unnecessary complexity and acts as a drag on returns.
3. [Graph omitted.] Have added the dividend to the price and the return inclusive of dividend after five year is higher for SCHO
OK, but what's the source of that graph? And why would it differ from what the fund managers themselves are reporting for 1/3/5 year standard annualized performance figures — which should (hopefully obviously) be your first port of call?
4. (Graph omitted.) Likewise, Dividends collective for the last ten year is higher compared SCHO to IBTS
Same questions. My hunch is that whatever data source you're using flubbed SCHO's share split adjustment. Start with the respective fund managers' standard reported performance figures up to the same specific reporting end date. Here are the standard annualized NAV returns in U.S. dollar terms that Schwab and Blackrock iShares U.K. themselves publish for SCHO and IBTA (respectively) through December 31, 2024. IBTA is already accumulating, and Schwab's figures assume all dividends are reinvested.

SCHO
1 Year: 4.00%
3 Years: 1.40%
5 Years: 1.32%

IBTA
1 Year: 4.06%
3 Years: 1.43%
5 Years: 1.35%

You'd expect these figures to be nearly the same, and indeed they are. However, IBTA very slightly outperformed SCHO despite a 4 basis point expense ratio advantage for SCHO. That's probably due to minor differences in tracking errors, the underlying 1 to 3 year U.S. Treasury indices that these funds track (ICE v. Bloomberg), and/or a bit of inefficiency in investor-level dividend reinvestment versus IBTA's fund-level reinvestment.
5. I am not sure what you mean by this. If I am non-US and when I invest in US ETF is I will be taxed by 30% and likewise for Ireland-domiciled ETF, the tax is 15%. Referring to the following extracted from https://www.etf.com/sections/etf-basics/bond-etf-taxation-3-things-you-need-know, so how does this play into picture from non-US?
  • U.S. Government Bond ETFs: Exempt from State Taxes
    Because U.S. Treasurys are tax-free at the state and local level, interest payments from sovereign bond ETFs that hold U.S. Treasurys are also exempt from state and local income taxes. They are subject to federal taxes, however.
You should ignore tax information applicable to U.S. persons when trying to understand U.S. tax implications for non-U.S. persons.

Again, Ireland specifically doesn't have anything to do with this, and therefore the Ireland-U.S. treaty rate on stock dividends is moot. IBTA is not a stock fund. The core problem for you, a non-U.S. person, is SCHO's U.S. domiciled fund wrapper. This wrapper means the fund is U.S. estate taxable and subject to U.S. withholding tax (refundable in this case, without interest). That's despite the fact what the fund holds (U.S. Treasuries) would not be U.S. taxable if you directly held them.

I think the reason for the (refundable) withholding tax is that the fund managers could hypothetically hold assets that are U.S. taxable. The fund's charter/mission isn't law, basically. So, since it's a U.S. fund, tax is withheld for non-U.S. fund shareholders, and then it's refunded if the fund clears a tax reporting year without holding taxable assets. But that withholding tax obligation no longer applies when the fund is domiciled outside the United States. (The U.S. estate tax obligation is strictly based on the fund's domicile and is not waivable or refundable.)

The above is my understanding, but it's up to you to do your own due diligence.
 

rayzzzz82

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That's the Ireland-U.S. tax treaty rate on stock dividends. Bonds, including U.S. Treasuries, should be eligible for the portfolio interest exemption that's not unique to Ireland. The central problem for these purposes is that SCHO is a U.S. domiciled fund, and therefore at the fund level there's a (refundable, without interest) withholding tax which adds unnecessary complexity and acts as a drag on returns.
So does this mean that all 100% of the dividend will be reinvested into IBTA ETF unlike the usual stock/index ETF where only 85% dividend will be reinvested back?


OK, but what's the source of that graph? And why would it differ from what the fund managers themselves are reporting for 1/3/5 year standard annualized performance figures — which should (hopefully obviously) be your first port of call?

Same questions. My hunch is that whatever data source you're using flubbed SCHO's share split adjustment. Start with the respective fund managers' standard reported performance figures up to the same specific reporting end date. Here are the standard annualized NAV returns in U.S. dollar terms that Schwab and Blackrock iShares U.K. themselves publish for SCHO and IBTA (respectively) through December 31, 2024. IBTA is already accumulating, and Schwab's figures assume all dividends are reinvested.

SCHO
1 Year: 4.00%
3 Years: 1.40%
5 Years: 1.32%

IBTA
1 Year: 4.06%
3 Years: 1.43%
5 Years: 1.35%

You'd expect these figures to be nearly the same, and indeed they are. However, IBTA very slightly outperformed SCHO despite a 4 basis point expense ratio advantage for SCHO. That's probably due to minor differences in tracking errors, the underlying 1 to 3 year U.S. Treasury indices that these funds track (ICE v. Bloomberg), and/or a bit of inefficiency in investor-level dividend reinvestment versus IBTA's fund-level reinvestment.

I did a calculation as per the price five years between and now and this is what I have gotten. So how does the stock split affect the price as it affect the NAV but I don't know how this NAV will affect the price/

SCHOSchwab Short-Term U.S. Treasury ETF10/9/2410/10/2449.062-for-1

SCHO​
Price on 15 Jan 2020​
25.28​
Dividend for five yrs​
3.92​
Price on 11 Jan 2025​
24.1​
Return​
10.80%​
IBTA​
Price on 15 Jan 2020​
5.26​
Price on 11 Jan 2025​
5.61​
Return​
6.65%​
 

BBCWatcher

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So does this mean that all 100% of the dividend will be reinvested into IBTA ETF unlike the usual stock/index ETF where only 85% dividend will be reinvested back?
Yes, but...

1. The fund managers collect an annual fee (0.07% for IBTA).

2. The "usual stock/index ETF" you're referring to is an Irish domiciled U.S. stock fund. Dividends from U.S. stocks enjoy the 15% Irish treaty rate. Dividends from other stocks are taxed based on whatever other tax rates and treaties apply to that fund's non-U.S. stock holdings. A global stock index fund has a mix of U.S. and non-U.S. listed stocks.
I did a calculation as per the price five years between and now and this is what I have gotten. So how does the stock split affect the price as it affect the NAV but I don't know how this NAV will affect the price/
You're not comparing apples to apples. Standard performance comparisons are always based on reinvesting dividends. Yes, U.S. Treasuries throw off interest and thus SCHO throws off dividends. But then that $3.92 would be reinvested in SCHO with its declining share price. The interest (and reinvested dividends) would generate more interest, but reinvested dividends would ride the declining share price too. You also have to be careful about ex-dividend dates. You're picking some odd dates there. It's usually safer to look at end of month/end of year sort of dates.

If you want to use this basis of comparison then use IDBT, the distributing version of IBTA. And just be careful about ex-dividend dates that may vary between funds.

I don't think you need to make it so complicated, though. Just trust what the respective fund managers report. And they're reporting no material difference in performance. They hold the same assets and have low expense ratios (0.03% v. 0.07%). But there are notable differences in tax effects: SCHO has withholding drag and is subject to estate tax, too. IDBT and IBTA do not suffer from either issue.

I pulled up what Yahoo! Finance says about the performance of IDBT and SCHO. They have it basically dead even, too, albeit with IDBT doing measurably better in 2024 for some odd reason. Something is wrong with your analysis since the fund managers and Yahoo! Finance agree they're on par.
 
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