*Official* Shiny Things club - Part 2

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oAkEn86

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Wanna seek advice on how to consider cpf as the bond component. There is always this view to consider cpf as the bond component but I find the method to consider it challenging.

1)do you consider oa, ma, or SA? I was thinking that it should be SA for the purpose of retirement. Oa may be hard to account for the possibility of buying housing.

2) withdrawal concept for SA is also a tad different from stocks/bonds/money in broker. For now, it is cpf life. Does this mean that we can't just take the absolute sum in sa as the sum to calculate allocation for rebalancing?

3) the prevailing concern is always that of policy changes. Should we be concerned? If so, how do we take that into account? (eg. safety factor, etc)

Context is Singaporean with another 30 years planning for retirement in Singapore

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limster

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you can ask yourself under what circumstances will 'CPF as a bond' not work?

One scenario is the stock market crashing and you losing your job at the same time. If that happens, you might want to have bonds which you can sell to raise cash (and CPF is not cash on hand).

If stock market doesn't crash but you lose your job, you should still be able to survive on the dividend income while waiting to find another job. And if the stock market is fine, one hopes the job market is also ok, so that should not take long.

For me, I treat CPF as a bond but I have enough emergency cash/cash equivalent for 12 months expenses. Some might think that 12mth expenses is excessive, but it also has a 2nd function as a warchest. The last time I used this warchest/emergency fund was during Brexit, but since then, I have rebuilt the warchest/emergency fund and its back to 12mths expenses.
 

coastfire

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Hi everyone,

I am 30, local. How should I allocate 1.5M so that the money can last me indefinitely without additional income?

From what I gather here, this is my plan so far:
- a "three fund" portfolio
- IWDA/EIMI/STI and a bond like SSB. (What other bonds should I consider? Max SSB allocation is 100k. Any good global bond funds?)
- 80/20 equities to bonds since this is for the long term (What are the recommended allocation % for the different equity components? 4 IWDA : 1 EIMI : 2.5 STI? How much local allocation should I set? I am thinking of eventually splitting my time between countries while keeping tax residency in Singapore.)
- 3.25% withdrawal rate -- I don't actually spend that much. Currently less than half of that. So, I have a wide safety margin.
- No planned big expenses such as a house or car locally

My goals are:
- as above, fund my expenses indefinitely
- growth of portfolio so that I have the choice to increase my expenses over time

Base on a 30 year simulation -- I should be getting about 8% return. My portfolio should grow to close to 3M inflation adjusted or 6.5M nominal. I should do alright even with sequence of returns risk since the time frame is so long and my expenses are flexible.

Does holding investments on a small margin make sense?

Are there any other ways I can optimise?
 

tangent314

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If you can get persistent 8% returns on your investments, then yes theoretically it would be nice to withdraw 3.25% and allow 4.75% to compound.

8% is highly optimistic IMO. Past performance is not an indicator of future performance, and are signs pointing to the future not being able to sustain that kind of performance. And that's assuming everything is in equities - when you add it bonds, the returns will go down.

For your situation, i think VWRD works better than IWDA+EIMI, since you want the distribution. I would max your CPF SA to the FRS, and put another 10% into bonds. Then perhaps just trying to live on the VWRD + bonds distributions.

CORP is the global bond fund that is often recommended, but you may find the yield a bit disappointing. LQDE has a higher yield, but is 100% exposed to USD. MBH (available soon) could be interesting if the yield is significantly higher than SSB / SGS.
 
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Hi everyone,

I am 30, local. How should I allocate 1.5M so that the money can last me indefinitely without additional income?

From what I gather here, this is my plan so far:
- a "three fund" portfolio
- IWDA/EIMI/STI and a bond like SSB. (What other bonds should I consider? Max SSB allocation is 100k. Any good global bond funds?)
- 80/20 equities to bonds since this is for the long term (What are the recommended allocation % for the different equity components? 4 IWDA : 1 EIMI : 2.5 STI? How much local allocation should I set? I am thinking of eventually splitting my time between countries while keeping tax residency in Singapore.)
- 3.25% withdrawal rate -- I don't actually spend that much. Currently less than half of that. So, I have a wide safety margin.
- No planned big expenses such as a house or car locally

My goals are:
- as above, fund my expenses indefinitely
- growth of portfolio so that I have the choice to increase my expenses over time

Base on a 30 year simulation -- I should be getting about 8% return. My portfolio should grow to close to 3M inflation adjusted or 6.5M nominal. I should do alright even with sequence of returns risk since the time frame is so long and my expenses are flexible.

Does holding investments on a small margin make sense?

Are there any other ways I can optimise?
No kids? Well, That could work.

Anyway, it is an achievement to accumulate that much by age 30. Congratulations!

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tangent314

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If I have 10-15k to invest in IWDA/EIMI/ES3, and do not invest every month but only look to re balance every year, would SCB be a better option as I understand IB is only worthwhile if you hit >100k?


IB is always better than SCB if you reach US$100k in 7 years or less.
Longer than that, it would depend on the amount and frequency that you buy using SCB.
 

oAkEn86

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you can ask yourself under what circumstances will 'CPF as a bond' not work?

One scenario is the stock market crashing and you losing your job at the same time. If that happens, you might want to have bonds which you can sell to raise cash (and CPF is not cash on hand).

If stock market doesn't crash but you lose your job, you should still be able to survive on the dividend income while waiting to find another job. And if the stock market is fine, one hopes the job market is also ok, so that should not take long.

For me, I treat CPF as a bond but I have enough emergency cash/cash equivalent for 12 months expenses. Some might think that 12mth expenses is excessive, but it also has a 2nd function as a warchest. The last time I used this warchest/emergency fund was during Brexit, but since then, I have rebuilt the warchest/emergency fund and its back to 12mths expenses.
I see. So when you treat it as a bond, you take into acc SA only?

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coastfire

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If you can get persistent 8% returns on your investments, then yes theoretically it would be nice to withdraw 3.25% and allow 4.75% to compound.

8% is highly optimistic IMO. Past performance is not an indicator of future performance, and are signs pointing to the future not being able to sustain that kind of performance. And that's assuming everything is in equities - when you add it bonds, the returns will go down.


I wouldn't say 8% is persistent. The number is the time weighted rate of return based on historical data of three fund portfolio. The data actually says 5.25% (10th percentile) to 11.88% (90th percentile) over 30 years with 8.71% at the 50th percentile. If we are looking at short term, things become much more unpredictable.

If you disagree, I am interested to know what you guess the number will be over the next 30 years.

Anyway, the simulation is based on US based portfolio including 30% allocated to global stock market. I am not sure how adding local allocations affect the returns. So, I am interested to know how I can replicate this in a local context.

I also didn't use this number to come up with 3.25%. Rather, it is based on the commonly accepted 4% safe withdrawal rate (Trinity study). It's a more conservative number that I am using to set the upper limit of my budget.

If you are interested in this topic, checkout the financialindependence subreddit. I can't post link. Just google "financialindependence" and it should show up.

For your situation, i think VWRD works better than IWDA+EIMI, since you want the distribution. I would max your CPF SA to the FRS, and put another 10% into bonds. Then perhaps just trying to live on the VWRD + bonds distributions.

CORP is the global bond fund that is often recommended, but you may find the yield a bit disappointing. LQDE has a higher yield, but is 100% exposed to USD. MBH (available soon) could be interesting if the yield is significantly higher than SSB / SGS.

What other benefits does VWRD has over IWDA+EIMI? I don't mind manually selling since it's easier to stay discipline in reinvesting.

Are there any STI ETFs that auto-reinvests?

MBH looks interesting.
 

limster

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I see. So when you treat it as a bond, you take into acc SA only?

Sent from Samsung SM-G950F using GAGT

I treat both OA and SA as the bond component of my portfolio.

I also treat my NTUC living policy as equivalent to a bond because (1) there is a fixed surrender value which never goes down, every year goes up, CAGR 3%+ (2) can surrender at anytime, even if stock market crashes, the surrender value is still the same. (actually its such a good policy others have posted here that it can be sold at higher than surrender value)
 

BBCWatcher

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So when you treat it as a bond, you take into acc SA only?
I agree with Limster on this point, and I would count Medisave to a degree. You can apply a discount rate to it -- multiply your MA by 50%, for example, and count that result as your bond-like value of MA. Also, MA funds are part of your estate to your nominated CPF heir(s), so I would count them in calculating any life insurance needs. (Again, you might discount them slightly -- deduct $10,000, for example -- with the assumption that you might use those funds for medical spending at end of life.)

The data actually says 5.25% (10th percentile) to 11.88% (90th percentile) over 30 years with 8.71% at the 50th percentile.
No, we're arguing that 8% (net of all costs) is too optimistic for a future projection. Past results are not necessarily indicative of future outcomes.

First of all, when you're making a projection like this, you don't take a median, and you don't forget to factor all costs. (Fund performance data doesn't include all costs.) You should properly take something substantially below median, because even if the future is as bright as a very bright past was (a big if), half the time you'd expect to undershoot the median.

U.S. retirement planners used 8% as a "rule of thumb" for many years, for those in their accumulation phase with "textbook" portfolio allocations. They're now typically using 7%. I use(d) 6%.

I would not even use 6% for a Singapore-heavy investment portfolio, net of costs -- I think that's too high.

Anyway, the simulation is based on US based portfolio including 30% allocated to global stock market. I am not sure how adding local allocations affect the returns.
Lower, and there's a very good, logical reason for that: the SGX simply isn't getting the future Amazons, Facebooks, and Alphabets of the world. It's not a stock market attracting IPOs. So you've effectively chopped off the innovation/disruption part of your investing that, eventually, gets picked up with simple index investing elsewhere. (It's also real estate heavy, and the government is emphatically not interested in sustained overheated real estate, which is what's required to generate long-term gains above the general rate of inflation.)

Consequently I don't give the STI as high a forecast. On a total return basis I'm kind of thinking 4.X%, but sometimes I question whether that's too optimistic.

Anyway, if you're conservative in your forecast -- and you should be -- you will be more liberal in how much you save -- and you should be.

The above figures are nominal and with anchored, current inflation figures.

I also didn't use this number to come up with 3.25%. Rather, it is based on the commonly accepted 4% safe withdrawal rate (Trinity study). It's a more conservative number that I am using to set the upper limit of my budget.
Some financial experts have questioned the 4% rule of thumb, and it's also not a rule of thumb for 30 year olds. It's a rule of thumb for 65+ year olds (or at least 60+). It assumes traditional retirement age, not "slacking off" after your 20s.

Now, if you want to stop earning an income immediately, one thing you could do is to buy an escalating immediate single premium life annuity from a reputable/high credit rating insurer. Use that as a baseline income floor, an income that would be adequate to your needs. Then use the rest of your wealth (if any) to try to improve on that baseline. That'd be quite safe.

What other benefits does VWRD has over IWDA+EIMI? I don't mind manually selling since it's easier to stay discipline in reinvesting.
VWRD is also a single trade to buy a rather well apportioned mix of IWDA and EIMI, so you save commissions.

MBH looks interesting.
Yes, it's probably going to be the best Singapore dollar bond fund, if that's something you want/need. There's not exactly a long list of such funds, though, so it hasn't got much competition.
 
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K|muRa^84

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I wouldn't say 8% is persistent. The number is the time weighted rate of return based on historical data of three fund portfolio. The data actually says 5.25% (10th percentile) to 11.88% (90th percentile) over 30 years with 8.71% at the 50th percentile. If we are looking at short term, things become much more unpredictable.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/22/jac...urn-only-4-annually-over-the-next-decade.html

Investing pioneer Jack Bogle believes investors should dramatically lower their expectations for returns over the next decade.

The creator of the first index fund said the following in an interview with CNBC's Mike Santoli:

"Just for mathematical reasons, the dividend yield is 2 percent, a little under 2 percent in fact, and the long-term dividend yield on stocks is pretty close to 4 ... the earnings growth on stocks has been a little over 5, that's going to be a very tough target in the future so let's call it 4 ... 4 and 2 percent give you a 6 percent investment return, but then you have to take ... the valuations in the market. ...You take that 6 percent return and maybe knock it off a couple of points perhaps for a lower valuation, slightly lower valuation over a decade and you're talking about a 4 percent nominal return on stocks. And that's low, lower than history. History is around 6 and a half."
 

BBCWatcher

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I love this quote from that same CNBC story:

Jack Bogle said:
It doesn't mean you should stop investing, but it means you should be investing in accordance with the expectation of lower returns in the future, and if you're wrong and if I'm wrong and the returns are higher, well, you're just going to have a terrible problem: Your nest egg is going to be larger than you would have ever expected.

Good plan!
 

makav31i

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Hi,

If I have 10-15k to invest in IWDA/EIMI/ES3, and do not invest every month but only look to re balance every year, would SCB be a better option as I understand IB is only worthwhile if you hit >100k?

If you are doing lump sum of $10-15k and will not be contributing regularly, SCB is the way to go...
 

smart_alex

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1) IIRC, when my friend opened the account a year ago, he was told to go down to the branch personally to do it.

2) When you apply for the trading account, you will also have to open settlement account(s) simultaneously. Each settlement account is denominated in a single currency. For example, if you have a Bonus Saver savings account and you want to buy AAPL shares, you have to transfer your SGD savings to the USD settlement account (at that spot rate dictated by SCB) before you start trading. Last time when I opened my account, they asked me which market I plan to trade in and I told them to open all the available currencies' settlement accounts just in case I might buy non-US shares in future.

3) If you want to save on the trading costs, you can do it quarterly.

4) Once you logged in, just go to Menu and look for Invest (Online Trading). It will bring you to a different page. On the right hand side of the page, there is a "Place Order" layout. In the Counter Code field, you can type in "IWDA". If there is no search result returned automatically, click on "Refine Search" and enable the "LSE - London SE" market and save settings. Now, type in "IWDA" again and you should be able to see it in the drop down. After that, in the Action field, click "Buy" and in the Order Quantity field, type in your desired number of shares. You can choose either Limit or Market order, then submit it and wait for the confirmation of the execution. [Note: At the bottom of the layout, there is an "Account Info" which shows you whether you have enough money in your settlement account to place an order.]

bookmarked this piece of valuable information :D
 

Maeda_Toshiie

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311290

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TM FlexiAssurance

Funds.
1. TMLS Singapore Bond Fund
2. TMLS Singapore Equity Fund

Insurance
Aviva, Group Term Life (200k)
Aviva, Group Personal Accident (100k)

No dependents.

What is the name of the ILP? What is fund is being invested under the ILP?

What kind of insurance policies do you have right now? (Do you have dependents?)
 

tangent314

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