*Official* Shiny Things club - Part 2

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BBCWatcher

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To be clear, I do allocate some savings/investment flow into a global REIT fund. A pretty small percentage, but some. Obviously I’m not opposed to the idea. I agree that it’s quite unnecessary to do this when you’re just starting out and quite optional later.

Honestly, the most important part of investing well is to “just do it” (thanks, Nike), doggedly, every month — to pay your future self first. And to ratchet up that savings flow when you’re able. A simple, low cost, well diversified portfolio is FINE, and you don’t even need to look at it. Too many people tinker too much, and it’s expensive to do that.

I agree with Shiny Things that you ought to set a simple investment program, then go to the pub or otherwise enjoy life.
 

BBCWatcher

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But I started to doubt your knowledge of SREIT. SREIT is structured as a pass-through vehicle, and have to distribute at least 90% of rental profit. It is tax free at the REIT level, and the DPU (dividend) is also tax fee for investors. Please study it.
I’m quite aware of all that, but those entities still face higher net taxes than other types of businesses.
 

pmstudent

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To be clear, I do allocate some savings/investment flow into a global REIT fund. A pretty small percentage, but some. Obviously I’m not opposed to the idea. I agree that it’s quite unnecessary to do this when you’re just starting out and quite optional later.

Honestly, the most important part of investing well is to “just do it” (thanks, Nike), doggedly, every month — to pay your future self first. And to ratchet up that savings flow when you’re able. A simple, low cost, well diversified portfolio is FINE, and you don’t even need to look at it. Too many people tinker too much, and it’s expensive to do that.

I agree with Shiny Things that you ought to set a simple investment program, then go to the pub or otherwise enjoy life.

Well said, BBC.
I admire your encyclopediac knowledge of financial products. However, I was under the impression that REIT was painted as an inferior asset class around this forum, therefore I feel obliged to defend it with hard cold data and facts. It is truly a different asset class than common stocks and fixed income, that deserves a place in anyone's portfolio.
Now that understand your position, it is all cool.
 
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limster

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Shiny Things' advocation of just IWDA + STI ETF is just plainly biased and destined to low returns! :s8:

The future is China, so just buying IWDA which has negligible China allocation is just destined to low returns!

It is better to stray from Shiny than stray from China! :s13:

I find Shiny's advice to be good and practical, which is expected for someone has actually worked/ is working in the financial sector . Walls of text of theory can be cut and pasted from elsewhere, but wisdom is gained through experience and application of theory :s13:
 

w1rbelw1nd

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Not surprising actually, Real Estates and REIT have high tax adjusted profit margin, a finding by Aswath Damodaran, a professor of finance at the Stern School of Business at New York University.

Industrial Average profit margin =~10%
Here are the top ten :

1.Tobacco: 37.06%
2.Transportation (Railroads): 36.64%
3.Real Estate (General/Diversified): 31.60%
4.Utility (Water): 27.90%
5.Software (Entertainment): 26.66%
6.Semiconductor: 26.59%
7.R.E.I.T.: 25.11%
8.Information Services: 24.08%
9.Metals & Mining: 22.98%
10.Drugs (Pharmaceutical): 22.78%

Quoted from :
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksh...es-and-their-impact-on-low-income-people/amp/

So what? This might have factored in the valuation of REITs or real estate related companies you have invested in
 

w1rbelw1nd

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Well said, BBC.
I admire your encyclopediac knowledge of financial products. However, I was under the impression that REIT was painted as an inferior asset class around this forum, therefore I feel obliged to defend it with hard cold data and facts. It is truly a different asset class than common stocks and fixed income, that deserves a place in anyone's portfolio.
Now that understand your position, it is all cool.

Heh. As someone who is working in a real estate investment related role, I cannot disagree with you more. There are many people within my firm that thinks that real estate investment is da boomz and only invests in it, but do I force down my personal bearish views on real estate and tell them that "I am right and you are wrong?" Nope. Bear in mind whatever justification we can make is highly subjected to confirmation bias, for everything data point, time period, situation where you can prove outperformance, there may be a different data point, time period, situation that proves otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, it is good that you have a view about how REITs should form part of one's portfolio. Having conviction that is based on own research (even if it is subjected to confirmation bias) will probably put you in a better position than many people who just blindly follow ST's advice without putting in the hard work, understanding the allocation and financial planning principles itself. I believe it is easier for you to stick to your plan if you put work into it.

The point I want to bring out is, what happens if you realise your REIT portfolio do worse than STI, or whatever index over the next year? or 3 years? or 10 years? Will you stick to the allocation? Or would you hate yourself for it and lose conviction? I do hope you can be convinced that your decision now is still a good one if things go south, because consistency in approach, confidence, and long term investing is our greatest leverage.

For the record, I hate Apple products to death (I proudly never own an Apple product), and 4 years ago when I started to buy into global indices I flirted with the idea of short selling my indirect stake in Apple so that I dont have exposure to the crap company. But did I do it? Nope. My point is that what we believe in may also not always be what we should invest in. Which is also the reason why I don't care so much about how the yield curve moves, how junk bond risk premiums change because I am freaking hell not going to "actively" makes a decision on whether the premiums is worth it or not. Some people like ST seems to like to make a judgement on those, but I do I. Not that someone is right or wrong here.

I can appreciate what other people do, and why they do it, but I do I.
 

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REITS are designed to be income producing and this is suitable for people looking for income investing. They are not looking for capital growth as main factor. Instead they are looking at steady dividend distribution as income supplement. The fact that REITS are required to distribute at least 90% of income means they will distribute dividend no matter what. So it may not be classified as inferior asset. More of alternative assets. Examples of REITS investor are AK and dividendwarrior.
 

BBCWatcher

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Did that experience result in high returns for Shiny?
I think you might be a bit confused about how this all works.

One or a couple people in the world achieve high returns in the U.S. Powerball and Mega Millions multi-state lotteries. They buy US$2 tickets and win millions, often hundreds of millions (after tax, net present value or lump sum payout). That’s a high return!

And so what? It’s not investing, it’s gambling. Should we declare the handful of Powerball winners to be wise, and we should all follow in their footsteps? While the state lottery organizations would appreciate that, no, that’s silly.

You shouldn’t be aiming for high returns as such. Prudent, appropriate investing is about maximizing long-term returns consistent with one’s time horizon and while managing risks well. Which is not “high returns,” not at all.

I’m not at all impressed with someone who claims 20% returns, or whatever. Yeah, so what? What was the risk involved, was it appropriate in the circumstances, and was it most likely a one-time windfall or a sustainable pattern? These questions matter, a lot. Otherwise it’s a gambling discussion, in which case you should buy a US$2 Powerball or Mega Millions ticket during your next visit to the U.S. Good luck.

I’m frequently surprised at how many people think financial lives are about racking up some score on a scoreboard, like a basketball score. No, that’s not how it works actually. What really matters is happiness, contentment — enjoying life, and not not worrying or at least worrying less. Money (“the score”) is a factor, an input into the happiness equation, but it’s only one of many and not all that important above a certain baseline — it has much lower marginal utility. (I don’t know how happy Jeff Bezos is — that’s his business — but I doubt another billion dollars wouldn’t move his happiness needle at all, not on its own anyway.) And I would posit that the person with a S$50 million net worth but subject to +/-S$45 million swings might not be as happy as the person with a S$1 million net worth +/-S$10K, other things being equal.
 
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pmstudent

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So what? This might have factored in the valuation of REITs or real estate related companies you have invested in

Of course, one must buy a business at the right valuation, not at any price.
Buying a high profit margin business at the right valuation (yield, PB ratio, etc) that keep growing dividend distribution, and with compounding effect it can be very powerful in long run. I am not advocating stock picking per se, passive investors can also invest in SREIT ETF that contains mostly blue chip REIT, albeit with expense ratio.

The point I want to bring out is, what happens if you realise your REIT portfolio do worse than STI, or whatever index over the next year? or 3 years? or 10 years? Will you stick to the allocation? Or would you hate yourself for it and lose conviction? I do hope you can be convinced that your decision now is still a good one if things go south, because consistency in approach, confidence, and long term investing is our greatest leverage.

No one can predict the future. Nobody knows which segment will outperform the benchmark index. There bound to be sectors that outperform index and sectors that under perform index in any time frame.

Am I convicted that SREIT will outperform STI for another 20 years, not necessary, I don't need to guess.
Am I convinced that SREIT, that well managed and growing DPU sustainably is a great income asset in anyone's portfolio? a resounding YES.
 

BBCWatcher

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For what it’s worth, I figured out that life is not about racking up a money score on a scoreboard no later than age 20 or thereabouts. Some people figure this out a lot earlier, and others much later or never. But it’s true, it’s absolutely true — above a relatively modest baseline anyway.

There are some researchers at Princeton who studied happiness (utility) a few years ago, and they discovered in the U.S. context that additional income above about US$75,000 (circa 2010 dollars) had zero effect on happiness. Satiation applies to money; enough (or more than enough) is enough. They also explain some related concepts such as adaptation, which may explain why many people like to gamble — they enjoy the psychic thrill, the rush. Other researchers have found that a lasting marriage is equivalent to about US$100,000 a year (circa 2010 dollars), although you need to be careful how to interpret that (as the paper explains).

....It’s not about racking up a score on a scoreboard, far from it.
 

BBCWatcher

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Am I convinced that SREIT, that well managed and growing DPU sustainably is a great income asset in anyone's portfolio? a resounding YES.
I’m not as convinced; I question the “S” part. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Singapore-based trusts are any more or less capable of acquiring and managing real estate than (picking a random example) Germany-based trusts.

Then there’s the fact that SREITs are tax toxic to me, so it doesn’t really matter what I think about SREITs. The IRS has settled that question for me. ;)

So I’ve landed on a low cost global REIT index fund, U.S. domiciled in my case. That’ll work or not, but it’s more geographically diversified, and that’s not a bad thing. I don’t think it makes general sense to take the more narrow bet (SREITs specifically). If you end up retiring in Singapore and are a non-U.S. person then a little bit of SREIT index fund exposure could make sense, so if you want to shift into that posture gradually, starting about 7 to 10 years before retirement, OK, that seems fair. But it should still be a small slice of your retirement portfolio.
 

pmstudent

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I’m not as convinced; I question the “S” part. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Singapore-based trusts are any more or less capable of acquiring and managing real estate than (picking a random example) Germany-based trusts.

SREITs is mainly because of the tax free dividend. US listed REIT has 17% withholding tax. SREIT blue chips diversify geographically, in Australia, Europe, China, Hong Kong etc. There are also US based REIT that listed in SGX, such as Manulife US Reit and Keppel KBS US Reit, Europe based REIT like Cromwell, and china based REITs. SGX has built a name for a strong hub of REIT, there will be more REIT to list here. REIT is probably the only bright spot for the dwindling SGX.

Then there’s the fact that SREITs are tax toxic to me, so it doesn’t really matter what I think about SREITs. The IRS has settled that question for me. ;)

I really curious about this part, I am keen to know more. Could you elaborate ? Thanks in advance.
 

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I want to open a SCB online trading account to trade IWDA. At the very last part of the online application, it says I have to submit the W8BEN form at their branch. May I know if I can submit the form online as well, or do I really have to go down to one of their branches?
 

BBCWatcher

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SREITs is mainly because of the tax free dividend.
Just to restate a previous point slightly differently, nobody should care about only one particular stage in the “tax pipeline.” If you’re looking at tax implications, look at all of them, end to end. SREITs pay plenty of tax.

US listed REIT has 17% withholding tax.
Yes, and I didn’t suggest U.S. listed REITs for non-U.S. persons. And actually it’s 30%, isn’t it? (For residents of Singapore and of other non-treaty countries.)

SREIT blue chips diversify geographically, in Australia, Europe, China, Hong Kong etc.
To some extent, but the “S” means they’re based in Singapore, and they skew heavily toward local and regional real estate. I have no reason to forecast that that particular skew and basing will be more or less advantageous than any others.

It’s a moot issue for me, but even if it weren’t a moot issue, I can think of no reason to assume that SREITs are any more or less wonderful than GREITs, TREITs, JREITs, KREITs, QREITs, or FREITs. Except for currency correlation when that starts to matter; see below.

There are also US based REIT that listed in SGX, such as Manulife US Reit and Keppel KBS US Reit, Europe based REIT like Cromwell, and china based REITs. SGX has built a name for a strong hub of REIT, there will be more REIT to list here. REIT is probably the only bright spot for the dwindling SGX.
I’m not recommending those either. I’m not recommending REITs at all, not in general. But, if you allocate some percentage of your savings to REITs, how about a low cost global REIT index fund? Makes sense to me, for maximum available geographic diversification. Unless you’re approaching retirement in Singapore when currency correlation starts to matter.

I really curious about this part, I am keen to know more. Could you elaborate ?
SREITs (and GREITs, TREITs, JREITs, KREITs, QREITs, and FREITs) are among the many possible investments that the U.S. Internal Revenue Service defines as “Passive Foreign Investment Companies” (PFICs). While it’s possible and legal for U.S. persons like me to invest in PFICs — notwithstanding the fact that certain investment companies and institutions, SREITs included I imagine, bar U.S. persons from investing in their wares since they’re confused about applicable U.S. law on this point, specifically the “Safe Harbor” provisions — the tax and reporting implications are not favorable. I choose to avoid all PFICs, and I recommend that other U.S. persons also avoid PFICs. It’s just not worth the paperwork complexity, plus there’s usually some higher tax.

To dig into this a little more, for a U.S. person a U.S. domiciled REIT or REIT fund would generally distribute some or all of its dividends as qualified dividends, meaning they qualify for a lower tax rate. The top marginal tax rate on qualified dividends is currently 23.8% (inclusive of the NIIT), and even at the top marginal rate that beats the 30% dividend withholding tax rate I assume you’d have to pay. Moreover, foreign income tax that the REIT or REIT fund pays is creditable. For example, if the REIT or REIT fund paid 5% to German tax authorities (or whatever), you get to take that 5% as a foreign tax credit, and that usually drives down the top U.S. marginal rate to 18.8% in this example. (I say “usually” because FTCs are a bit complicated, but that’s the gist of it.) Any capital gains are tax deferred, and U.S. domiciled REITs/REIT funds can be held within U.S. tax advantaged accounts such as IRAs and 401(k)s where dividends and capital gains can be either tax deferred (“Traditional”) or tax exempt (“Roth”). All the tax-related figures are conveniently reported in annual “1099” forms, so it’s simple to report and to calculate, and you don’t have to deal with any extra PFIC-related forms (plural). And it can be a REIT that invests in Swiss real estate if you want — the real estate itself can be anywhere except, of course, in embargoed/sanctioned countries. It’s just the trust, or fund of trusts, that has to be U.S. domiciled for these purposes. Plus there’s the fact that the U.S. domiciled stuff generally has really low costs since it’s the largest and most competitive financial market.

Too much information, probably. ;)
 

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Warren Buffett achieves very high returns over say past 30 years period.
But not over the past 15 or so. Berkshire Hathaway has had two major phases in its evolution: market outperformance in the first phase, and market performance in its second phase. Buffett himself will tell you this quite openly.

That is due to experience & wisdom, & without the high risks you mentioned.
No, Berkshire Hathaway took quite a few big risks in its first phase, as Buffett also explains quite openly. And Berkshire Hathaway is not a relevant point of comparison for individual investors anyway.
 

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Just to restate a previous point slightly differently, nobody should care about only one particular stage in the “tax pipeline.” If you’re looking at tax implications, look at all of them, end to end. SREITs pay plenty of tax.


Yes, and I didn’t suggest U.S. listed REITs for non-U.S. persons. And actually it’s 30%, isn’t it? (For residents of Singapore and of other non-treaty countries.)


To some extent, but the “S” means they’re based in Singapore, and they skew heavily toward local and regional real estate. I have no reason to forecast that that particular skew and basing will be more or less advantageous than any others.

It’s a moot issue for me, but even if it weren’t a moot issue, I can think of no reason to assume that SREITs are any more or less wonderful than GREITs, TREITs, JREITs, KREITs, QREITs, or FREITs. Except for currency correlation when that starts to matter; see below.


I’m not recommending those either. I’m not recommending REITs at all, not in general. But, if you allocate some percentage of your savings to REITs, how about a low cost global REIT index fund? Makes sense to me, for maximum available geographic diversification. Unless you’re approaching retirement in Singapore when currency correlation starts to matter.


SREITs (and GREITs, TREITs, JREITs, KREITs, QREITs, and FREITs) are among the many possible investments that the U.S. Internal Revenue Service defines as “Passive Foreign Investment Companies” (PFICs). While it’s possible and legal for U.S. persons like me to invest in PFICs — notwithstanding the fact that certain investment companies and institutions, SREITs included I imagine, bar U.S. persons from investing in their wares since they’re confused about applicable U.S. law on this point, specifically the “Safe Harbor” provisions — the tax and reporting implications are not favorable. I choose to avoid all PFICs, and I recommend that other U.S. persons also avoid PFICs. It’s just not worth the paperwork complexity, plus there’s usually some higher tax.

To dig into this a little more, for a U.S. person a U.S. domiciled REIT or REIT fund would generally distribute some or all of its dividends as qualified dividends, meaning they qualify for a lower tax rate. The top marginal tax rate on qualified dividends is currently 23.8% (inclusive of the NIIT), and even at the top marginal rate that beats the 30% dividend withholding tax rate I assume you’d have to pay. Moreover, foreign income tax that the REIT or REIT fund pays is creditable. For example, if the REIT or REIT fund paid 5% to German tax authorities (or whatever), you get to take that 5% as a foreign tax credit, and that usually drives down the top U.S. marginal rate to 18.8% in this example. (I say “usually” because FTCs are a bit complicated, but that’s the gist of it.) Any capital gains are tax deferred, and U.S. domiciled REITs/REIT funds can be held within U.S. tax advantaged accounts such as IRAs and 401(k)s where dividends and capital gains can be either tax deferred (“Traditional”) or tax exempt (“Roth”). All the tax-related figures are conveniently reported in annual “1099” forms, so it’s simple to report and to calculate, and you don’t have to deal with any extra PFIC-related forms (plural). And it can be a REIT that invests in Swiss real estate if you want — the real estate itself can be anywhere except, of course, in embargoed/sanctioned countries. It’s just the trust, or fund of trusts, that has to be U.S. domiciled for these purposes. Plus there’s the fact that the U.S. domiciled stuff generally has really low costs since it’s the largest and most competitive financial market.

Too much information, probably. ;)

TL;DR, REIT is not tax efficient for US citizen. However, this is not applicable for Singapore based non-US residents holding SREIT, right?
 

BBCWatcher

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TL;DR, REIT is not tax efficient for US citizen. However, this is not applicable for Singapore based non-US residents holding SREIT, right?
SREITs pay plenty of tax. Real estate in Singapore is comparatively quite heavily taxed, for everyone, including trusts. This government prefers to tax real estate in Singapore because it’s hard to load on a boat or plane and move. So it does, a lot. (This government also actively intervenes in the real estate market, especially in residential real estate that would have some indirect effects in other subsectors, to cap valuations. I’d say the Singapore government is remarkably more activist in this respect in this sector than most governments; I think that’s a very fair characterization.) A global REIT index fund domiciled in Ireland, for example, might be more tax efficient.

“More information and investigation is required.” What the REIT or REIT fund holder pays in tax only barely scratches the tax surface. A resident of Singapore (who is not a U.S. person) also pays zero dividend and zero capital gains tax on Irish (for example) domiciled global REIT index funds, so there’s no difference in that respect.
 
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pmstudent

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A resident of Singapore (who is not a U.S. person) also pays zero dividend and zero capital gains tax on Irish (for example) domiciled global REIT index funds, so there’s no difference in that respect.

Really ? I thought we need to pay 15% withholding tax for dividends of Irish domiciled LSE listed entity. Interesting.
 

limster

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since there is withholding tax on LSE-listed REITs, it would be interesting to find out how the tax issue is dealt with for LSE-listed ETFs that hold such REITs.
 

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Are the Tbill and SSBs nowadays considered high interest?
What does it mean when bond prices are high and what impact will it have on the equities?
 
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