Russia would not have invaded Ukraine if it had been member of NATO

[TrueBeliever_jh]

They of course can decide if they want to join NATO. Russia can also decide to invade Ukraine.

The problem is that NATO was not really serious about defending Ukraine. Ukraine foolishly became anti-Russia without the military to back its policies. Sovereignty and ability are two different things.

Because Ukraine is not full member of NATO.

In case anyone is interested to know how long it took a country to actually becomes a NATO member~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania–NATO_relations
The accession of Albania to NATO took place in 2009. Albania's relationship with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) began in 1992 when it joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council.[1] In 1994, it entered NATO's Partnership for Peace, which began Albania's process of accession into the alliance.[2] In 1999, the country received a Membership Action Plan (MAP).[3] The country received an invitation to join at the 2008 Bucharest Summit and became a full member on April 1, 2009.

That is 17-years from invitation. Of course the Baltic states got it faster.


But Ukraine shelved the idea of joining NATO, so they have to restart whatever process they have done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations
Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1992.[1] Ukraine applied to begin a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.


As one can see, Ukraine might just be 1 year away from actually becoming a NATO member, why didn't Russia attack then~?

 

[smellyfish]

I think the “it” means Ukraine not Russia

 

[avviicc]

For one, SG is smart enough to persistently maintain our neutral stance towards both US and China.

Had Zelensky followed our example, his country likely would have been spared the invasion.

We neutral??? we support USA in sanctions against Ukraine, we let USA use our country as base. Our pilot are trained in USA. Do we let China use our country as base? Do we conduct exercise with China?

We are pro-USA. Imagine IF China tell us to stop cooperating with USA as China see USA presence in our country as a threat and ask that we stop all military ties with the USA. How? Do we listen to china? if not we end up like Ukraine kana attacked by China.. How?
So u are saying we need to kow tow to china and stop cooperating with USA just like u say Ukraine should kow tow to Russia and stop cooperating with NATO?

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...meeting-lloyd-austin-region-stability-2060876In a joint statement issued after the meeting, the defence chiefs highlighted the signing of the 2019 Protocol of Amendment renewing a 1990 memorandum of understanding (MOU) that facilitates US forces' access to Singapore's military facilities for transit and logistics support.

 

[Dilemma6]

Ya.. precisely.. WE HAVE'NT ENCOUNTER the situation YET. Imagine one day China tells us to stop ALL military exercise with USA and stop supporting USA in sanctioning Russia, so we do we continue to be close and side with USA? China says they fear USA will park their personnel , planes and missiles here as we are the most pro-USA in this region and China is Russia's friend.

So how? we LL give in to China request and cut ties with USA is it and remain neutral and withdraw our support for the USA sanction on Russia and stop all exercises with USA?

Perhaps u tell me what do we do here? Just like Russia tells Ukraine to cut ties with NATO, we cut ties with USA if China tells us to do so?

Technically this has already happened with TW when China took our terrax at HK port.
Got to give and take. dont make China tulan until wanna regime change you. Big brother of the region gonna give some face, but gonna stand our grand.

Anyway, what you described is abit extreme. because theres so many buffer countries between China and SG. Unless Thailand/vietnam/Malaysia all swing to china side, this wont happen.

More worrying situation imo, is when Indo/Msia somehow become strong and united, we might be forced to bend over.
Recently already bend over when we give up our changi airspace to indo.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapo...t-indonesia-benefits-changi-singapore-1816321

 

[avviicc]

Technically this has already happened with TW when China took our terrax at HK port.
Got to give and take. dont make China tulan until wanna regime change you. Big brother of the region gonna give some face, but gonna stand our grand.

Anyway, what you described is abit extreme. because theres so many buffer countries between China and SG. Unless Thailand/vietnam/Malaysia all swing to china side, this wont happen.

More worrying situation imo, is when Indo/Msia somehow become strong and united, we might be forced to bend over.
Recently already bend over when we give up our changi airspace to indo.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapo...t-indonesia-benefits-changi-singapore-1816321

I know.. but some ppl here support Russia and say Ukraine should kow tow to Russia and stop their relationship with NATO.. once u kow tow to russia, expect Russia to impose their rules and implement their own support puppet as Ukraine govt..

So one day if China or any neighbour big country were to ask our country to kow tow to them, we just wave white flag and submit ourself to China or the big country? Then we need an army for what?

 

[kyokoto]

It's like a basketball game, you have 2 sides.... the leader of one side chooses his team while the other does the same.

With his influence diminishing, the other team leads wants to be part of the team now BUT nobody wants him BECAUSE if there isn't anyone to go up against, why's there a need for segregation in the first place?

 

[GoodBetterBest]

Russia would not have invaded Ukraine if it had been member of NATO, says Zelenskyy
Read more At:
https://www.aninews.in/news/world/e...-member-of-nato-says-zelenskyy20220320213605/

NATO can easily test this hypothesis by allowing Ukraine to join NATO ASAP. See if Russia will withdraw.

If so, Zelensky is right. Otherwise, another fault finding exercise to add to the "It's NATO's fault for not giving me a no fly zone" list.

 

[Dilemma6]

I know.. but some ppl here support Russia and say Ukraine should kow tow to Russia and stop their relationship with NATO.. once u kow tow to russia, expect Russia to impose their rules and implement their own support puppet as Ukraine govt..

So one day if China or any neighbour big country were to ask our country to kow tow to them, we just wave white flag and submit ourself to China or the big country? Then we need an army for what?

Normally things dont just escalate to wave white flag instantly.
Usually will have some small disagreement, then escalate to bigger and bigger things until one side want to regime change/invade you.

For eg, if indon ask us bend over:
we say no = get invaded or regime change. kana jia lat jia lat, singaporeans all suffer, economy also bad, like venezuela/ukraine
OR
You negotiate for a deal with indo, still get some form of independent, less suffering but have to swing to indo side.
Knowing PAP, they surely will choose number 2

But if its Malaysia, PAP may choose war, because got chance to win.

Anyway, SG style is wont escalate until people wanna regime change/invade us. Sg govt will always try to work with big countries to create a win win situation.

 

[TrueBeliever_jh]

We neutral??? we support USA in sanctions against Ukraine, we let USA use our country as base. Our pilot are trained in USA. Do we let China use our country as base? Do we conduct exercise with China?

We are pro-USA. Imagine IF China tell us to stop cooperating with USA as China see USA presence in our country as a threat and ask that we stop all military ties with the USA. How? Do we listen to china? if not we end up like Ukraine kana attacked by China.. How?
So u are saying we need to kow tow to china and stop cooperating with USA just like u say Ukraine should kow tow to Russia and stop cooperating with NATO?

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/sin...meeting-lloyd-austin-region-stability-2060876In a joint statement issued after the meeting, the defence chiefs highlighted the signing of the 2019 Protocol of Amendment renewing a 1990 memorandum of understanding (MOU) that facilitates US forces' access to Singapore's military facilities for transit and logistics support.

Do we conduct exercise with China?
Yes.

 

[tfkmueh]

he should have abided by the Minsk agreement .. and don't push to join NATO.

ultimately it is the president's fault for all these. want to be stubborn. don't fulfil agreements , keep want to join NATO.

give them chance for peace talks still demand unreasonable terms.

hmm funny it is putin who dissolved the minsk agreement and void it a few days before invasion.

so who did not fulfil the agreement again?

 

[tfkmueh]

Technically this has already happened with TW when China took our terrax at HK port.
Got to give and take. dont make China tulan until wanna regime change you. Big brother of the region gonna give some face, but gonna stand our grand.

Anyway, what you described is abit extreme. because theres so many buffer countries between China and SG. Unless Thailand/vietnam/Malaysia all swing to china side, this wont happen.

More worrying situation imo, is when Indo/Msia somehow become strong and united, we might be forced to bend over.
Recently already bend over when we give up our changi airspace to indo.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapo...t-indonesia-benefits-changi-singapore-1816321

i am interested in this claim "Recently already bend over when we give up our changi airspace to indo.", u have any proof of this?

is it FIR or Changi Airspace, there a big difference imho.

 

[avviicc]

Normally things dont just escalate to wave white flag instantly.
Usually will have some small disagreement, then escalate to bigger and bigger things until one side want to regime change/invade you.

For eg, if indon ask us bend over:
we say no = get invaded or regime change. kana jia lat jia lat, singaporeans all suffer, economy also bad, like venezuela/ukraine
OR
You negotiate for a deal with indo, still get some form of independent, less suffering but have to swing to indo side.
Knowing PAP, they surely will choose number 2

But if its Malaysia, PAP may choose war, because got chance to win.

Anyway, SG style is wont escalate until people wanna regime change/invade us. Sg govt will always try to work with big countries to create a win win situation.

haha.. then our daily language change from english to bahasa indonesia liao

 

[avviicc]

Do we conduct exercise with China?
Yes.

yes.. we also do that with USA and let USA use our country as base. So we haven't encounter what Ukraine experience.. that is if China one day warn us to stop cooperating with USA and force us to choose a side like what happened to Ukraine. Ukraine also on friendly terms with Russia and NATO until Russia forced ukraine to choose a side, then u know what happened.

So if one day China got a leader like putin who wants to unify all chinese majority country like our country, then he force us to choose a side, how? Do we bend down to China and avoid war or we refuse becos we are an independent country but we kana attack like Ukraine kana from Russia

U tell me u prefer which one? bend down to china or resist china?

I think we better kow tow to china and stop cooperating with USA becos we know if China attacks, USA wun help us just like how they dun help ukraine.. right?

how about let china annex us and we become a province of china ? good right

 

[Kumar22]

That crisis is about nuke site.
Since then, NATO has uphold their promise not to build more nuke.
Ironically, Putin is building new nuke site towards NATO.

To be honest Nato has always been what it's been euphemistically referred to

No Action Talk Only.

 

[Dilemma6]

i am interested in this claim "Recently already bend over when we give up our changi airspace to indo.", u have any proof of this?

is it FIR or Changi Airspace, there a big difference imho.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/singapores-air-deals-vital-to-aviation-safety-shanmugam
Its FIR,
Shamugan ownself said its vital to us.
But Indo asked and SG being a good neighbour negotiated for a deal for other things.

You can see it as bendover or being a good neighbor.

And SG media, ranked 160th in the world, will package until we got the best deal in the world, even thou we might be on the losing end.

 

[Dilemma6]

yes.. we also do that with USA and let USA use our country as base. So we haven't encounter what Ukraine experience.. that is if China one day warn us to stop cooperating with USA and force us to choose a side like what happened to Ukraine. Ukraine also on friendly terms with Russia and NATO until Russia forced ukraine to choose a side, then u know what happened.

So if one day China got a leader like putin who wants to unify all chinese majority country like our country, then he force us to choose a side, how? Do we bend down to China and avoid war or we refuse becos we are an independent country but we kana attack like Ukraine kana from Russia

U tell me u prefer which one? bend down to china or resist china?

I think we better kow tow to china and stop cooperating with USA becos we know if China attacks, USA wun help us just like how they dun help ukraine.. right?

how about let china annex us and we become a province of china ? good right

if China is strong enough until able to do this to SG, it just means USA already fall quite badly already.

Means vietnam/thai/laos/myanmar/Malaysia all swing to China side already.

When that day comes, of course switch to china ah.

Still fight meh?

 

[tfkmueh]

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/singapores-air-deals-vital-to-aviation-safety-shanmugam
Its FIR,
Shamugan ownself said its vital to us.
But Indo asked and SG being a good neighbour negotiated for a deal for other things.

You can see it as bendover or being a good neighbor.

And SG media, ranked 160th in the world, will package until we got the best deal in the world, even thou we might be on the losing end.

which I presume the current FIR is like this.

my next question is, do SG lose access to the airspace that are Indo FIR? or do you even know what FIR is?

 

[avviicc]

if China is strong enough until able to do this to SG, it just means USA already fall quite badly already.

Means vietnam/thai/laos/myanmar/Malaysia all swing to China side already.

When that day comes, of course switch to china ah.

Still fight meh?

I also think so.. i mean if one day Putin type of leader become China president and he says he wants to unify all countries with chinese majority like taiwan, singapore and even penang etc ..., we jitao say "祖国万岁“ ：）

This type of thing hard to say one.. imagine Xi see Putin manages to win the war then he itchy itchy want to imitate putin, then tat day will come

BUT taiwan will kana first before our turn

 

[ckt1978]

they have to help or else NATO is meaningless

they can say they will help. just not in the way u want them to help.

 

[pwongkk]

Why not go back further that if Russia able to prevent the dissolution of the Soviet Union, then this war could be avoided?