FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) Movement

starlight318

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2% annual inflation is a little risky imo.
how about 3% or even 4%?
Most of my income streams will be moving up with inflation (rental income ,dividends). CPF life payouts n OA are not. So hopefully 2% still ok. If not enough then have to cut down on discretionary spending. Out of $3.6k, I only need $1.8k per month for basic living expenses.
 

DevilPlate

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My attitude towards inflation is that we can't control it so no point forecasting it. We can only ensure our wealth is well invested to at least keep up with inflation. If rate of return can beat inflation, well done. Otherwise nothing much i can do anyway
it matters when u stop having active income….
otherwise hard to plan how much u can yolo and spend during simi go-go years.
unless u few 10M then doesnt matter haha
 

celtosaxon

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Nett rental yield for yr current home prolly 3% whereas alternative investment can easily beat it?

However i can understand having a perm home of yr own does provide valuable intangible benefits
Housing costs over the years could easily consume 60% of my take home pay. But at least by owning, half of that 60% is paying down principle. Appreciation in value over the past 15 years has only averaged 3% but the leverage and low mortgage rates have helped. Definitely no regrets versus renting.
 

BBCWatcher

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2% annual inflation is a little risky imo.
how about 3% or even 4%?
I was able to find some Consumer Price Index data for Singapore spanning 1961 to 2024 (January's report). Over that span of time Singapore's inflation was about 2.52%/year if smoothed out (and if my math is correct). Given this history I think your insight is spot on.
 

revhappy

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Nett rental yield for yr current home prolly 3% whereas alternative investment can easily beat it?

However i can understand having a perm home of yr own does provide valuable intangible benefits
House is tangible asset with intangible benefits :) Since this topic is about FIRE, or early retirement, so it is a choice we are making in terms of when to stop working.

So I would suggest, if it allows, work for a bit longer and own your house. Just like that Financial Samurai blogger did, delay your retirement if you have to, but own your house. In the end when you retire and you look around you, what your achievements are, you can count the roof over your head as something you own. It keeps you rooted or grounded, you have a place to call your own.
 
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BBCWatcher

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In Singapore you have a couple options to avoid the "house rich, income poor" problems a lot of retirees face:
  • You can "rightsize" your home. If you're a couple then it's often a good solution to get (for example: ) a 3 room HDB flat with a remaining leasehold that runs until the youngest spouse/partner reaches age 105.
  • You may be able to obtain a reverse mortgage. DBS reintroduced reverse mortgages in 2021 (the DBS "Home Equity Income Loan"). The HDB Lease Buyback Scheme is broadly similar for HDB flats.
These approaches can help you retire earlier, enjoy a better retirement lifestyle, and/or be more generous sooner with respect to your heirs while also enjoying the same residence for the rest of your days (if you wish) and with no rental home price fluctuations. In the Singapore context the financial math tends to be much easier when you rightsize into a HDB flat if you can.

Try running your retirement financial plan with a "rightsizing" assumption and see what you get.
 

revhappy

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Housing costs over the years could easily consume 60% of my take home pay. But at least by owning, half of that 60% is paying down principle. Appreciation in value over the past 15 years has only averaged 3% but the leverage and low mortgage rates have helped. Definitely no regrets versus renting.
I think practical outcomes are very different from theory. When you own your house you probably live better. But when you rent your house, you are financially more disciplined because you know that the rent is a waste so you keep your rent to the minimum and save aggressively Vs someone who owns their house.

This is why when I compare my networth Vs those who bought their house since the beginning, including their home equity, my networth is not too bad.
 

starlight318

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In Singapore you have a couple options to avoid the "house rich, income poor" problems a lot of retirees face:
  • You can "rightsize" your home. If you're a couple then it's often a good solution to get (for example: ) a 3 room HDB flat with a remaining leasehold that runs until the youngest spouse/partner reaches age 105.
  • You may be able to obtain a reverse mortgage. DBS reintroduced reverse mortgages in 2021 (the DBS "Home Equity Income Loan"). The HDB Lease Buyback Scheme is broadly similar for HDB flats.
These approaches can help you retire earlier, enjoy a better retirement lifestyle, and/or be more generous sooner with respect to your heirs while also enjoying the same residence for the rest of your days (if you wish) and with no rental home price fluctuations. In the Singapore context the financial math tends to be much easier when you rightsize into a HDB flat if you can.

Try running your retirement financial plan with a "rightsizing" assumption and see what you get.
This is what I don't understand, let say if the couple has a 5-rm flat and right-size to a 3-rm flat, after deducting transaction costs and Reno they would probably be left with only 100k or so. Isn't it better for them to keep the 5-rm and rent out 2 rooms. Easily can get back 100k within 5years. Can also do LBS to sell the tail end of the remaining lease.
 

DevilPlate

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This is what I don't understand, let say if the couple has a 5-rm flat and right-size to a 3-rm flat, after deducting transaction costs and Reno they would probably be left with only 100k or so. Isn't it better for them to keep the 5-rm and rent out 2 rooms. Easily can get back 100k within 5years. Can also do LBS to sell the tail end of the remaining lease.
Thats provided they don’t mind having strangers.
Another option is to go for 3rm BTO if they still qualify as 2nd timer.
 

limster

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House is tangible asset with intangible benefits :) Since this topic is about FIRE, or early retirement, so it is a choice we are making in terms of when to stop working.

So I would suggest, if it allows, work for a bit longer and own your house. Just like that Financial Samurai blogger did, delay your retirement if you have to, but own your house. In the end when you retire and you look around you, what your achievements are, you can count the roof over your head as something you own. It keeps you rooted or grounded, you have a place to call your own.

Buying the biggest home you can afford when prices are good appears to have been a good choice for me. This means that I have room to 'downgrade' to a smaller unit and have some capital gains left over. I received my first flier for 2024 (I might have thrown more away that I didn't read, so this is the first I read I guess) from a property agent giving the indicative value of my home.... quite entertaining but hard to believe 😅

Of course, the fact that it was a good decision for me doesn't mean good decision for everyone. It also reinforced my impression that buy property sure huat in Singapore, even though I have no interest in becoming a property investor due to ABSD, but at least the (unrealised) capital gain gives me some optionality. Pls DYODD.
 

revhappy

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Buying the biggest home you can afford when prices are good appears to have been a good choice for me. This means that I have room to 'downgrade' to a smaller unit and have some capital gains left over. I received my first flier for 2024 (I might have thrown more away that I didn't read, so this is the first I read I guess) from a property agent giving the indicative value of my home.... quite entertaining but hard to believe 😅

Of course, the fact that it was a good decision for me doesn't mean good decision for everyone. It also reinforced my impression that buy property sure huat in Singapore, even though I have no interest in becoming a property investor due to ABSD, but at least the (unrealised) capital gain gives me some optionality. Pls DYODD.

I stumbled upon this home tour video by an Indian PhD professor in the US.
Owning your place and doing it up as your tastes is amazing.

 

limster

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I stumbled upon this home tour video by an Indian PhD professor in the US.
Owning your place and doing it up as your tastes is amazing.
yup, I have friends who invested a lot of time, money and effort into building their dream home. I really don't have the inclination to do so , as I prefer to use my time to achieve other things. Time, like money, is finite.

Also, owning property in a good postcode is crucial in the US. Not just for good schools. Local services like police and fire department and paid for by local taxes including sales taxes, and its pretty clear that some places, even in the same State, are better funded than others.

For US, I guess I am most familiar with CA. There are several places that are really lovely and more importantly, you feel safe staying there, like Palos Verdes. Palos Verdes apparently also has the 'advantage' of being geologically less susceptible to earthquakes... hasn't been a quake in CA for a long time, but who knows.... 😅 I used to be a fan of SF as SFO is a nicer gateway airport than LAX but SF has gone downhill.
 
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celtosaxon

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The rule of thumb I have always heard, if you plan to live in the same location for at least 5 years, it’s better to own. The number of years is usually longer in Singapore, unless it’s a BTO. Property cycles can be abnormal here because market forces are heavily manipulated and then ABSD can totally change things too.
 

revhappy

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Getting back to FIRE discussion; I find it is a bit ironic that the opportunity cost of retiring early is so high, because your late 40s to your late 50s this 10 years period or a decade can be the most productive or fruitful years financially; if you somehow continue working in a relaxed job.

Whereas in our 20s we were paid so low; the money I made in my 20s is so insignificant now vs how much I made in my last 15 years.

Now given how bad the job market is for fresh passouts in tech or other fields while it is relatively easy for us experienced people to carry on our jobs; it just feels criminal to give up a well paying job where you are cruising.

I dont think our kids will have it as easy as we had, we enjoyed the best meaty part of the tech boom. I believe the tech jobs boom is getting over now; even the best software engineers working for big tech, fintechs etc are being laid off so market is getting flooded with over supply of tech talent; so who is going to hire fresh college passouts?
 

polyglob

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a mere $30k ish for funeral lol (probably $10k+ in 2024 dollars so hopefully enough)

Had a family death not too long ago. Coffin price ranged from 3k to 8k. I dunno what the entire funeral cost. Some of the cost was offset by peh kim received
 

celtosaxon

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Getting back to FIRE discussion; I find it is a bit ironic that the opportunity cost of retiring early is so high, because your late 40s to your late 50s this 10 years period or a decade can be the most productive or fruitful years financially; if you somehow continue working in a relaxed job.

Whereas in our 20s we were paid so low; the money I made in my 20s is so insignificant now vs how much I made in my last 15 years.

Fully agree. When I see those reaching FIRE in their 30’s it’s only rare ‘lucky ones’ who got very high pay early on in their career.

My pay now (in my 50’s) is more than 10x what I made in my 20’s here in Singapore. So despite saving >50% in my 20’s, just reaching a 6 figure net worth took well into my 30’s.

Higher pay plus the compounding returns means exponential growth in net worth. In 2023 my net worth grew more in 1 year than in my first 10 working years.
 

BBCWatcher

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This is what I don't understand, let say if the couple has a 5-rm flat and right-size to a 3-rm flat, after deducting transaction costs and Reno they would probably be left with only 100k or so. Isn't it better for them to keep the 5-rm and rent out 2 rooms. Easily can get back 100k within 5years. Can also do LBS to sell the tail end of the remaining lease.
Situations vary, but it’s an option that should be on the table. One part you’ve probably missed is that the home’s interior at age 30 (let’s suppose) is 35 years old when you have the option to rightsize at age 65, for example. That is, your new renovation isn’t the same as a 35 year old renovation. Exactly how you value that difference varies, but it’s very different.
Whereas in our 20s we were paid so low; the money I made in my 20s is so insignificant now vs how much I made in my last 15 years.
True, but if you can save a decent amount starting 20 years earlier, and in a low cost global stock index fund (as a notable example), that’s huge. It worked for me, but it’s just math really. And better late than never if you’re trying to reach a long-term financial goal.
Had a family death not too long ago. Coffin price ranged from 3k to 8k. I dunno what the entire funeral cost. Some of the cost was offset by peh kim received
I think the minimum viable cost is about $430. That includes the $100 cremation cost, $320 ash scattering cost, and a $10 allowance for public transit fares to perform these steps. If you don’t scatter the ashes in the designated public park then that cost might be reduced, assuming the alternative is legal. Everything else is to cater to survivors’ ways of commemorating a death, not actually something involving legal disposal of remains.

There are a very few wonderful charitable organizations that handle these baseline costs for those who cannot afford them, including for destitute individuals who die with no supporting family members.

You’re certainly allowed to make your funereal wishes known to your family and friends. If for example you want the $430 package, say so.

As an aside, I think the government should consider waiving these two public charges for decedents who opted into MTERA at least 24 months before they passed on. Opting into MTERA means you’re volunteering to donate more than the statutory minimum organs. Or even consider giving a modest funeral allowance to (the estates of) MTERA decedents.
 

BBCWatcher

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Just for fun I computed my gross starting salary in current (January, 2024) U.S. dollars. In current dollars it was about US$104,700 (about S$140,600 at the current exchange rate, or about S$11,600 per month). That’s with an excellent graduate degree and does not include any bonuses, although I may not have gotten a bonus that first year. (I remember I had no expectation of a bonus, but whether I actually got one I can’t rule out.) It was also in a moderate cost of living U.S. city.

My recollection is that I was able to negotiate a starting salary that was more than 13% above the original offer. It was a short negotiation, though. They made an initial offer, I gave them another number, and they accepted my number. I think the whole negotiation lasted a minute.

In current dollars the median U.S. salary is now just shy of US$60,000 (S$80,500) per year. That’s for all ages. So a starting salary of ~US$104,700 (current dollars) was genuinely very good. A salary like that helps when trying to save. As I recall I did most of the things you’re supposed to do: maxed out tax advantaged retirement savings (analogous to Singapore’s Supplementary Retirement Scheme but with some employer matching funds, which is arguably CPF-like), accumulated an emergency buffer, and got ready to pay off relatively high cost debt (student loans that would start accruing interest 6 months after I started work). And saved for a car I bought a little over a year later since that was a genuine necessity in that context. I knew my existing car would need replacement fairly soon. (Cars are not a necessity here in Singapore, so that was a higher cost of living element.) I also got disability income insurance. You could get that via the employer with a payroll deduction, to get 2/3rds salary replacement in the event of disability. That was the only additional insurance that made sense to pay extra to get at that time. I couldn’t participate in the Employee Stock Purchase Program (opportunity to buy shares at a decent discount) during the first year (a typical rule, maybe even required legally), but I signed up as soon as allowed and maxed that out.

I was already living on my own, in a different city than the one my parents lived in. And I really needed a car for my job. So for that reason too my living costs were higher than what a typical person starting his/her first real job in Singapore would experience. Income taxes were higher (and paid on a withholding basis from paychecks, so it's not like Singapore where you can pay the income tax later), but the Social Security part was 15.3% I think (employer plus employee) — a lot lower than the 37% CPF contribution rate. (I closed most of that gap by maxing out the tax advantaged retirement savings accounts, but those were voluntary.) Medical insurance was "free" (employer-provided) and more comprehensive than in Singapore, so there were no direct MediShield Life or Integrated Shield plan premiums to pay — nothing equivalent to that. But the employer's salary offer is reduced to help pay for the medical insurance benefit. The money has to come from somewhere, after all. Sales tax was broadly similar to Singapore's GST, so no real difference there.

Anyway, none of this stuff is exotic in terms of core principles whether here in Singapore or elsewhere. Just do the best you can to equip yourself for success (good educational investments), try to get a good salary (and keep looking for reasonable opportunities for advancement), save early and diligently, insure what actually needs to be insured, and then try not to do anything too stupid.😀
 
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celtosaxon

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Anyway, none of this stuff is exotic in terms of core principles whether here in Singapore or elsewhere. Just do the best you can to equip yourself for success (good educational investments), try to get a good salary (and keep looking for reasonable opportunities for advancement), save early and diligently, insure what actually needs to be insured, and then try not to do anything too stupid.😀
Reminds me of J. Bogle’s famous quote, “Successful investing involves doing a few things right and avoiding serious mistakes”
 

revhappy

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Fully agree. When I see those reaching FIRE in their 30’s it’s only rare ‘lucky ones’ who got very high pay early on in their career.

My pay now (in my 50’s) is more than 10x what I made in my 20’s here in Singapore. So despite saving >50% in my 20’s, just reaching a 6 figure net worth took well into my 30’s.

Higher pay plus the compounding returns means exponential growth in net worth. In 2023 my net worth grew more in 1 year than in my first 10 working years.

In my case it was even more dramatic because I was in India until the age of 30 and my career started during the dotcom bust and 9/11. Also my wedding happened when I was 28 and in India, wedding expenses take away a big chunk out of your networth. So at the age of 30(in 2009) my networth was like 30k SGD. in 2023 my networth grew by 270K SGD.

I believe @BBCWatcher 's story is quite exceptional, but most people's 20s is pretty much a washout, in financial terms.
 
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