The university graduate today is worse off than the ITE graduate of the past !

[otakuflick]

Already explain to you how many times. Average income back then was 1/3 of fresh graduate salaries but average income now higher than fresh graduate salaries. HDB is for the mass market so you should look at average salaries not fresh graduate salaries. LMW chose the numbers on purpose without full disclosure because he cherry picking the data point that show that we are worse off. Since you not able to counter my arguments you choose to use his warped and cherry picked allegations. I’m not surprised since seems you are hardcore oppo supporter and this kind of twisting of facts really speaks a lot of the quality of our oppo. That’s why say oppo no credibility.

who are the people buying the BTO flats?

fresh graduates or the 'average workers'?

hehehe, It's a totally valid talking point

Why should it includes workers not even eligible to buy HDB in the first place? I will say the 5.5k needs to be adjusted for the expats and high income people. We are doing an affordability comparison on HDB

 

[batniss]

LMW already gaining reputation as siaolang, not too far away from CSJ. Somehow these people have cult like status among oppo supporters, they worship him like cannot find another person as good or as eloquent as them. In real life CSJ cannot even win a bielection against an Indian candidate in a Chinese majority smc.

U throw any monkey in also can win. Is not Indian candidate or not. Is always about the party.

To me LMW ask ground questions very directly which is nice. I don't deem a smart guy like him as siao lang. I m not in a position to deem that. Neither should you. Are you by any chance a psych doctor?

But what the parliament could do is to explain it in a manner where everyone understands instead of walking round and round dodging questions or answering to a point people scratches their head more.

That will help the masses.

Will you be contesting? Let me know. I will make sure you have my vote so u can go in and explain with intelligence.

 

[bluerhino]

who are the people buying the BTO flats?

fresh graduates or the 'average workers'?

hehehe, It's a totally valid talking point

Why should it includes workers not even eligible to buy HDB in the first place? I will say the 5.5k needs to be adjusted for the expats and high income people. We are doing an affordability comparison on HDB

Miss the point again. If you want to argue this route then my question to you is 45 years ago fresh grad will bto? Or they aim landed or private? Fresh grad 45 years ago already top 10%, rest of the 90% are o level grad or maybe not even that. Those are the ones that buy hdb. You can cut out the expat, take median resident etc, these are people that can bto. The picture won’t be different.

 

[bluerhino]

U throw any monkey in also can win. Is not Indian candidate or not. Is always about the party.

To me LMW ask ground questions very directly which is nice. I don't deem a smart guy like him as siao lang. I m not in a position to deem that. Neither should you. Are you by any chance a psych doctor?

But what the parliament could do is to explain it in a manner where everyone understands instead of walking round and round dodging questions or answering to a point people scratches their head more.

That will help the masses.

Will you be contesting? Let me know. I will make sure you have my vote so u can go in and explain with intelligence.

Sorry to me he is really siao lang, a lot of his questions is precisely like this housing affordability question. He cherry pick and twist the question. I don’t think it is a fair question at all. If he really wanted to find out about affordability he could have quoted average salaries of Singaporeans in their 25-30s then and now. This includes all education levels since hdb doesn’t require you to have a degree before you can bto. Why didn’t he quote that? Because he probably did the math and found out that HDB actually require less years of working to afford now vs in the past, so must cherry pick numbers.

Btw for opposition parties it has to do with the quality of the candidate and less so the party unless you are WP. SDP had CST and PSP had TCB. Voters arguably were voting for CST and TCB

 

[Eliwood]

who are the people buying the BTO flats?

fresh graduates or the 'average workers'?

hehehe, It's a totally valid talking point

Why should it includes workers not even eligible to buy HDB in the first place? I will say the 5.5k needs to be adjusted for the expats and high income people. We are doing an affordability comparison on HDB

Actually this argument is even more relevant for 1979, because the tertiary grads' income were way above median...

 

[batniss]

Sorry to me he is really siao lang, a lot of his questions is precisely like this housing affordability question. He cherry pick and twist the question. I don’t think it is a fair question at all. If he really wanted to find out about affordability he could have quoted average salaries of Singaporeans in their 25-30s then and now. This includes all education levels since hdb doesn’t require you to have a degree before you can bto. Why didn’t he quote that? Because he probably did the math and found out that HDB actually require less years of working to afford now vs in the past, so must cherry pick numbers.

As usual. You made it sound like everyone can BTO and will definitely get it regardless of reasons (can wait for it, got luck to get etc)

But like parliament you also avoid questions and just continue personal attack on him.

Very sad. I thought can have constructive moments.

 

[bluerhino]

As usual. You made it sound like everyone can BTO and will definitely get it regardless of reasons (can wait for it, got luck to get etc)

But like parliament you also avoid questions and just continue personal attack on him.

Very sad

Which question did I avoid. Let you type out and I reply you.

 

[otakuflick]

Housing prices should not be compared to the salary of a fresh grad (Uni/poly/ITE). Instead it should be compared to the corresponding median salary of the entire population, or the age group of interest.
Making historical comparisons between housing prices and salary of fresh graduates does not make any sense, and ignores demographic changes over time.

In 1979, gettting into AND graduating with a university degree was very difficult.
There are limited slots available and standards are very high. In those days, obtaining a Bachelors actually mean something.
There were limited women in the workforce, and limited education or career opportunities for women in the workforce.
If you were to compare the median income of all adults in 1979, it would be very low, considering that most men were considered the sole breadwinners, and a significant proportion of women had no income or had very low wages.
+ points to LMW for effort. However, he is cherry picking / framing the argument in a skewed manner, which is not much different from people in white.

Today, there is no difficulty in getting into a university. In fact the standards are so low today that once you enter a university, it is almost impossible to fail. Graduation is merely a passage of time.

The current way of life seems fundamentally flawed if it requires everyone to spend 20 years studying, 40 years working, 10 years in retirement, and another 10 in limbo. What’s the point? In the past, it was the men who worked, earned well, and supported their families. Now, it’s expected of everyone, what’s the real value in this system?

then the system is crashing down now

 

[Eliwood]

The current way of life seems fundamentally flawed if it requires everyone to spend 20 years studying, 40 years working, 10 years in retirement, and another 10 in limbo. What’s the point? In the past, it was the men who worked, earned well, and supported their families. Now, it’s expected of everyone, what’s the real value in this system?

then the system is crashing down now

Were ur parents single income?

When did they retire? Are they self sufficient in retirement?

The system has not changed since the beginning, it is more of there are more venues for ppl to spend now.

 

[0nePunchm@n]

very true! Let the next 5 gens having fun carrying housing loan to the max..
btw ask them curse those ancestors 18 gens that kept saying " lol missing the boat"

 

[otakuflick]

Were ur parents single income?

When did they retire? Are they self sufficient in retirement?

The system has not changed since the beginning, it is more of there are more venues for ppl to spend now.

yes and yes

bc assets are inflated so on paper they can retire if my generation still uphold the system for the next 30 years. In my mind, I'lll say it's not happening.

The system has not changed since the beginning, it is more of there are more venues for ppl to spend now.

this is wrong, the system changed drastically, when women entered the workforce, educations became extensive and expensive, manufacturing outsourced, people started to buy house with loans .........

 

[Swisspers]

The current way of life seems fundamentally flawed if it requires everyone to spend 20 years studying, 40 years working, 10 years in retirement, and another 10 in limbo. What’s the point? In the past, it was the men who worked, earned well, and supported their families. Now, it’s expected of everyone, what’s the real value in this system?

then the system is crashing down now

Valid points and valid questions.
But the topic is LMW's (and most EDMWers) comparison of housing prices to fresh grad salary.

 

[Eliwood]

yes and yes

bc assets are inflated so on paper they can retire if my generation still uphold the system for the next 30 years. In my mind, I'lll say it's not happening.



this is wrong, the system changed drastically, when women entered the workforce, educations became extensive and expensive, manufacturing outsourced, people started to buy house with loans .........

On paper.... How abt in practice?

The system has always been to amass resouces as efficiently as possible. The rules of the system might have changed, but not the system.

 

[Swisspers]

Comparing housing prices to median salaries of age group (say 25-30) is more or less valid, since thats a reasonable age to start a family.
Or housing prices to median salaries of entire population, if you wish to take a more general view.

 

[newborn1000]

Already explain to you how many times. Average income back then was 1/3 of fresh graduate salaries but average income now higher than fresh graduate salaries. HDB is for the mass market so you should look at average salaries not fresh graduate salaries. LMW chose the numbers on purpose without full disclosure because he cherry picking the data point that show that we are worse off. Since you not able to counter my arguments you choose to use his warped and cherry picked allegations. I’m not surprised since seems you are hardcore oppo supporter and this kind of twisting of facts really speaks a lot of the quality of our oppo. That’s why say oppo no credibility.

Dont angry , i help you repost

 

[Eliwood]

Comparing housing prices to median salaries of age group (say 25-30) is more or less valid, since thats a reasonable age to start a family.
Or housing prices to median salaries of entire population, if you wish to take a more general view.

If want to be so precise, then we shd only consider downpayment since it is reasonable to take a mortgage to buy a house...

So the actual outflow at that age shd just be downpayment.

The rest will be spread out over subsequent years so shd take the median income from say 30 to 45.

 

[dontwastetime]

Already explain to you how many times. Average income back then was 1/3 of fresh graduate salaries but average income now higher than fresh graduate salaries. HDB is for the mass market so you should look at average salaries not fresh graduate salaries. LMW chose the numbers on purpose without full disclosure because he cherry picking the data point that show that we are worse off. Since you not able to counter my arguments you choose to use his warped and cherry picked allegations. I’m not surprised since seems you are hardcore oppo supporter and this kind of twisting of facts really speaks a lot of the quality of our oppo. That’s why say oppo no credibility.

a lot of pple failed maths accuse LMW of cherry picking. He already give chance by using the cheapest BTO prices yet it's 95 times the graduates income

If we compared using resale prices or THE RECORD BREAKING BTO AMK 877k (yes it exist) EVEN 200 times the income also won't be surprised.

@newborn1000 see this is how pap ibs ownself cherry pick but accuse others

 

[parchiao]

It doesn’t matter. Smart and street smart people will find a way in life. If your country has 10 people and only 1 place for university the best person will go and so the graduate salary is basically that for the top 10%. If your country has 10 places for university then every one ends up going and the median graduate salary is that for the 5-6th person. There is no way that the median salary for graduates in the 2nd scenario can fight with that for the first scenario since it means your country average is higher than the top 10% of last time. University or not doesn’t make you smarter and graduate salaries is a function of how well you are able to segregate the smart from the not so smart. If you go Taiwan route and literally let everyone go to university then it is no surprise their starting pay will be crap

There are many ways to look at it, and if PAP has a certain way, they should make their case. But I don't feel like they want to because they rather not have people poking into the details. In the end, it will be a little of the good stuff every now and then, which will more likely infuriate people.

 

[parchiao]

The prob give up aldy. Now they just encourage ppl say if cannot enter universities never mind... can explore other career paths like becoming Grab driver or going to jail & become influenza with a story

This is why you see the media & govt relentlessly promoting all these ex-jail birds & gig workers success stories

I agree with this assessment. As someone who lived most of my life knowing that local graduates were limited because there was only NUS and NTU, I already thought it was a huge about turn when they setup SMU. It was more or less confirmed when the subsequent universities were also setup.

It would be interesting to see when the median salary of fresh graduates crossed below overall median income, and see how it ties in with which PAP generation and what policies.

 

[jinsadndepress]

Yes. Every society got smart and dumb people. Smartest 10% of people will have it easier in life than the bottom 10%. Even if I let 100% of people in to Uni the top 10% of grad will still earn more than the bottom 10%. If you think same effort same pay then all I can say is you are too naive.

Agree with chiu ...

In other word now peepur put more effort get less ...

Thanks