Any history experts ? How come Tibet is under China rule but VietNam / Korea is independent?

[ponpokku]

kekeke, while the beast is already dead, cooked and served on the table, the beast in the heart is harder to kill.

u want to start looking up all these, u could start with a few history books angmoh or chinese, depends on which one u feel comfortable with. but b4 u start reading, it is oso important to 1, have some basic skills like 'speed reading', cos there's too much to read and u usually cant afford to read an article more than 3 times. then 2, keep an open mind, try looking up for the important resources even thou u might not like the language or the author. i hated english when i was young but i trained myself to read as fast as 600 words/min for english books, and even faster for chinese. dont cut urself from the huge pool of info just bcos of personal preference.

i only started to be serious with 'Western Civilisations' by E M Burns and 'A Global History' by L S Stavrianos for my angmoh history, when i was in pre-u. i think the national library got a copy of Burns and so did the CJC library. CJ library actually got pretty good stuff esp the reference section, but i think most of the students just gave it a pass. i used to know the photocopy girl there and got to copy lots of books last time. i even became as skillful as copy shop workers.

the chinese ones i started with 'zhan guo ce'(compilation) and 'shi ji'(sima qian), like sec school. 'shi ji' is a must read for chinese history cos it sets the basis for comparison in terms of structure, style, language and oso the 'historian point of view' which is supposed to be independent from all, even from the authorities.

 

[ponpokku]

Eventually, the Manchus got toppled by the Nationalists at the early 20th century.

The Manchus were conservative and ignorant so they deserved to be toppled and relegated into ordinary civilians. During the Qing Dynasty, the Manchus were considered as high-class people and the Hans were merely 'loyal' subjects.

Lucikly, Sun Yat-Sen emerged to put an end to the imperialistic and autocratic regime once and for all. China would never be so weak if the Manchus did not stop reforms from transforming the country. Japan did the right thing in transforming itself into a powerful nation under the Meiji reign.

Modernization is the key to recognition and stability. Without it, a country can be bullied and isolated by the outside world.

actually its a little unfair to put the manchus in such a bad light.

ok, to be fair, the manchus presented the chinese a line of pretty competent leaders (emperors) that cannot be found in most of the other dynasties. we can safely say that no manchurian emperors are fools, except maybe the last 2. but they wasnt and never had the chance to be trained into good leaders. looking at other dynasties, its very fortunate we get 1/2 or 1/3 of them to be good competent leaders.

the problems the manchurians faced is the same as all other dynasties prior to them: unable to manage by numbers, locked in a bad position by the ultra-mature admin system, and the lack of a sound communication network, even at ancient level. the only difference, when compared to other dynasties, was that they faced opponents that were totally different from the other earlier dynasties: angmohs with industrial power. this is the first time the chinese are facing opponents/competitors that are more productive than themselves, they cannot win. put ming leaders, tang leaders in office, they oso cannot win.

 

[Providence]

At least, Zheng He helped to folster foreign relations for China during the Ming Dynasty.

Aiyah... Imperialism is 90% not good for people... Imperialism always comes with conservatism and autocracy...

 

[ponpokku]

actually the chinese centralised govt quite okay in the beginning... thats like 2200 yrs ago. top in the world, the rest of the ppl still cannot wear silk and some still living in caves or semi erected houses.

but after 2000 yrs, this system cannot carry on liao. the worst thing is that this system still got minor abilities to correct itself when there are small glitches here and there, and the ppl never thought of a need to revolutionalise something to take over. only when everything becomes too late then pijiah and start from scratch.

there are oso presently some Ming dynasty fans out there in china saying ming govt will correct itself accordingly if they were in power, unlike the manchus. they claimed that the ming emperors are more open minded towards foreign tech advances unlike the manchus. this is too bad just wishful thinking. its like althou da vinci designed subs and choppers on the drawing board, but we only manage to create them centuries later. the tech level at that time simply cannot support such improvements in ming or earlier.

 

[othniel80]

there are oso presently some Ming dynasty fans out there in china saying ming govt will correct itself accordingly if they were in power, unlike the manchus. they claimed that the ming emperors are more open minded towards foreign tech advances unlike the manchus. this is too bad just wishful thinking. its like althou da vinci designed subs and choppers on the drawing board, but we only manage to create them centuries later. the tech level at that time simply cannot support such improvements in ming or earlier.

actually on what basis do these fans have to put up such a claim? That's kinda of interesting to know, maybe Ponpokku bro can elaborate? I find that the chinese in Qing dynasty sort of fell in a decadent, fail to move on with the times when the western powers advanced in the maritime trade, industrial age. To top it off, they refused to open trades with them, which without would not have exposed the chinese to tech advances and such. I think to an extent, they sort of fell behind. Of course it's my opinion only, given the limited knowledge I have and furthermore we don't learn chinese history here also.

 

[padixiong]

actually the chinese centralised govt quite okay in the beginning... thats like 2200 yrs ago. top in the world, the rest of the ppl still cannot wear silk and some still living in caves or semi erected houses.

but after 2000 yrs, this system cannot carry on liao. the worst thing is that this system still got minor abilities to correct itself when there are small glitches here and there, and the ppl never thought of a need to revolutionalise something to take over. only when everything becomes too late then pijiah and start from scratch.

there are oso presently some Ming dynasty fans out there in china saying ming govt will correct itself accordingly if they were in power, unlike the manchus. they claimed that the ming emperors are more open minded towards foreign tech advances unlike the manchus. this is too bad just wishful thinking. its like althou da vinci designed subs and choppers on the drawing board, but we only manage to create them centuries later. the tech level at that time simply cannot support such improvements in ming or earlier.

if empress dowager cixi never stop the Self-Strengthening Movement between 1861–1895, Qing dynasty have chance to continue itself ??

 

[ponpokku]

actually on what basis do these fans have to put up such a claim? That's kinda of interesting to know, maybe Ponpokku bro can elaborate? I find that the chinese in Qing dynasty sort of fell in a decadent, fail to move on with the times when the western powers advanced in the maritime trade, industrial age. To top it off, they refused to open trades with them, which without would not have exposed the chinese to tech advances and such. I think to an extent, they sort of fell behind. Of course it's my opinion only, given the limited knowledge I have and furthermore we don't learn chinese history here also.

whoa bingo, u asked one good core question.

the center of their argument includes some of the following:
1, ming dynasty was classified by some as the era where capitalism in china begins. this is, however, still 'debatable', reasons being related to the orthodox propaganda of CCP and thus their legit status. if they pick a wrong stand it might affect their 'legitimacy'. nowadays chinese history explain according to usefulness to CCP.
2, ming was the beginning of 'mass production' methods in china. 'factories' that hired thousands of workers exist in major cities.
3, advancement in science and medical technology and also philosophical thinking.
4, ming uses paper currency.
5, ming military used firearms and distribution is pretty high among troops.
6, ming govt was 'open-minded'. they trade with other ppl, they got massive maritime expeditions.
7, ming govt got an early form of democracy, the 'cabinet' has the power to veto emperor's decision if they think they should.

etc etc. and they say that all these positive developments if continued, will transform china into a modern country in a century or so. but these were, too bad, cut off by the manchurian invasion and they revert back to conservative centralise govt.

the fact is, all these were rather misleading, or 'si shi er fei' in chinese chengyu. the reason why i explain later, just finish dinner and cannot think now... want to sleep...

 

[ponpokku]

if empress dowager cixi never stop the Self-Strengthening Movement between 1861–1895, Qing dynasty have chance to continue itself ??

the chinese management system had developed into such a fashion that if the leader step down, he's usually as good as dead. so they can never let go until they die. this is pure survival, cannot bargain one. historically very few emperors retire and have a happy life. one famous one was the first emperor of tang, passed the throne to his son (who killed the rest of his brothers) and became 'tai shang huang'. he really let go everything and lived a happy retirement life, sometimes singing and dancing with his son the emperor, on royal parties. in ming dynasty, the sixth emperor yingzong (named zhu qizhen) lost the throne to his brother when he was defeated and captured by the mongols. after he was rescued he was made 'tai shang huang' and lived under house arrest. but he later staged a revolt, killed his brother and took back the throne. in qing dynasty, emperor qianlong retired on his own accord and passed the throne to his son. but every appointment of officials still have to be signed by him.

even today, some of those CCP leaders step down as head of state, they never give up the chairman of armed forces commitee. deng xiaoping was more zhai, he gave up the post to jiang zemin almost as soon as he retires in 89. jiang zemin only pass the post to hu jintao in 05, 5 yrs after retirement, scared kena backstab. as for the tiny red pimple, u know lah. mentos after mentos, mentos should ask them shoot commercials liao.

so nope. the key wasnt the empress dowager herself. in fact it was the bunch of conservatives around her that tipped her off about the emperor trying to retake power. the empress, on the other hand, thought that emperor will kill her in order to retake power, based on almost all cases in history, even her own. she killed the 8 officials appointed by her late husband to prevent herself being killed. she cannot help but thinks the young emperor would do the same to her. so its a whole gang of ppl brought together by common interests, and that common interests is too bad not about the bright future of china. this was a matter of life and death, the empress go down, so will the officials and their titles and posts. only when one can manage to keep himself alive, then he or she can consider the future plans for the country. so in simple words, the qing govt already rotten to the core, need more than just simple surgical operation.

japan oso got reformation during that time, but japan different story. they were like feudal society and the emperor actually holds no power. thats why they can maintain single royal family for centuries cos there is no use killing the emperor and the royals. cant take anything from them and only give urself bad reputation and enemy of the state. the chinese need to kill the emperor everytime, the japanese only need to get rid of the strongest military leader.

 

[ponpokku]

as for the self strengthening movement, the young emperors and his young officials were also too implusive. acted too rashly. most of them had never been in the core of the govt. they went as bad as implementing 100 reforms a day. they hurt the interests of too many, and a lot of reformation were not well thought out nor well planned. china was in a bad state, old and sick and cannot tahan sudden injection of powderful medicine.

so, it takes 2 hands to clap. and remember, all these 'conservative' thinking didnt come from the manchus. these nomadic ppl probably got no idea how to establish even a 1/2 **** philosophy. politics and power struggle were the game of the majority han chinese.

 

[ponpokku]

back to ming china.

so ming dynasty wasnt really the fore-runner of a modern state. if we look at some of the capitalism definitions like, wealth and tools to create wealth are in private hands, land, labour and capital are privately owned, traded, and oso protected by the law. we know that ming china doesnt really fit the profile.

first things first, officially the emperor owned EVERYTHING. there was privatisation among commoners and royals alike, but only to a certain level (and pretty low level). if one went overboard, the emperor can anytime issue a decree and confiscated everything, based on wadever remote, unreasonable reasons. and u cant fight a case against the emperor. there is no laws to protect u. besides, the ming laws hated merchants. the first emperor himself was a beggar turned monk turned warrior turned emperor, and he thought only peasants are the foundations of the state. ming laws are typically against merchants and got 1001 ways to hurt them. so the typical scenario for a merchant to survive would be get rich first, make friends with officials thru bribery, then secure wealth by securing the executive branch (it's almost impossible to touch the legislative branch). no laws facilitate merchantilism.

the mass production was for the royal family. ie, the factories only got one customer, the emperor. and all the products cannot be freely distributed unless given away by the emperor. many a time foreign delegates stole porcelain plates from royal feasts cos the chinawares worth a lot back home. so the mass production was non economical. they dun talk about cost and supply. just produce the best at all cost. and they dont use machinery, just simple tools and tons of labourers.

the scientific advancement part is pretty difficult to analyse... the chinese claimed popular use of type printing at that time. but the printing machines we used nowadays were derived from the press independent invented by gutenburg in the 15th century. no chinese printing machine of that era survive, thou quite a lot of printed books did. and it doesnt change the fact that literacy is still pretty low. the chinese do have a pretty good calendar then, but it was also a cooperative work with christain missionaries (matteo ricci and company). there were a whole lot of chinese medicine writings and theories, but cant be quantified nowadays cos chinese medicine is in pretty bad shape under CCP... there were also lots of engineering, farming books, but probably none on natural sciences. so the ming chinese basically knows 'how to fix' but not 'why' when it comes to physics, chemistry, or architecture.

the mongols were the first to use paper currency in china. surprise surprise surprise. these nomadic ppl somehow, but i dunno how, learned to peg currency with national product, and the paper currency was used in small quantity thus minimising inflation. the ming govt, thou introduced the mass circulation of paper currency, didnt knew about that relation. they initially put a fixed legal tender price for their notes, but they overprint and the notes became worthless paper. ppl revert back to silver and copper coins. but china lacks silver, and the country faced a circulation problem, like cardiac arrest every now and then. some places even used barter trade. trade and circulation in the country basically relied on a massive network of short routes. so when the population finally reached its peak, food circulation cannot follow up in time and famine strikes. ming was overthrown by hungry peasants.

there were once they earned a lot of silver from japan, like 2 million taels a yr (16 taels = 1 chinese lb = roughly 600g), then japan kena economic crisis after a few yrs and forbade the flow of silver out of japan. the silver problem only kena partially solved in qing dynasty, when mexican silver dollars (da yang) was brought into china. but that high demand cause strain on the angmoh economies, and eventually led to the opium war.

later.

 

[padixiong]

i loved chinese history. esp. the period during the end of Qing dynasty and its translation

learnt alot from u, however most of the info like not avaiable on wikipedia or not detailed enough.

any books i can start with for self learning?? ?

there was once a show
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towards_the_Republic
if u happen to watch it, does it really say the true story for that period based on your knowledge?

 

[ponpokku]

the minute details wont be 'readily available' to the general public cos when it involves going against CCP propaganda, it cant be published publicly. the details will still be available among internal publications, in very small numbers like 5000-10000 copies per print, so the general public wont get to see them even if they exist.

chinese writers are sometimes quite 'cunning' oso. i remember when i first visited chinese unis for classes, the lecturer always say 'according to socialist thoeries, this and this is that and that', something like that. at first u thought 'according to socialists theories' was just a talking habit, something they got used to saying, like 'hail hitler' or 'tenno heika banzai'. it even got printed on the books, esp the preface or intro part. later on u somehow noticed that there are flaws and illogical parts in their writings and speeches, then u realised the 'according to socialist theory' part is a key they purposely left behind. the hidden line is, 'if not according to socialist theories', things are the other way round, and then the picture became clear. so dont just read... think alternatively, think different.

'towards the republic' was quite neutral towards the whole event, tried to cover every side of the story and thus a pretty good show. pretty factual too. a lot of the events and dialogues are based onfactual events, even word for word. but some parts are imaginary, like the dialogue btw sun yat-sen and li hongzhang, nobody actually knew the true conversation btw them, just that they couldnt agree with each other.

it led to much controversal 'reviews' among mainland chinese, as it portrayed the ppl involved in a manner very differently from the chinese textbooks, yuan shikai wasnt a really bad guy, sun yat sen was pretty eccentric, the foreigners are quite reasonable ppl, etc etc. it was finally banned by the chinese broadcasting corp.

 

[padixiong]

the minute details wont be 'readily available' to the general public cos when it involves going against CCP propaganda, it cant be published publicly. the details will still be available among internal publications, in very small numbers like 5000-10000 copies per print, so the general public wont get to see them even if they exist.

chinese writers are sometimes quite 'cunning' oso. i remember when i first visited chinese unis for classes, the lecturer always say 'according to socialist thoeries, this and this is that and that', something like that. at first u thought 'according to socialists theories' was just a talking habit, something they got used to saying, like 'hail hitler' or 'tenno heika banzai'. it even got printed on the books, esp the preface or intro part. later on u somehow noticed that there are flaws and illogical parts in their writings and speeches, then u realised the 'according to socialist theory' part is a key they purposely left behind. the hidden line is, 'if not according to socialist theories', things are the other way round, and then the picture became clear. so dont just read... think alternatively, think different.

'towards the republic' was quite neutral towards the whole event, tried to cover every side of the story and thus a pretty good show. pretty factual too. a lot of the events and dialogues are based onfactual events, even word for word. but some parts are imaginary, like the dialogue btw sun yat-sen and li hongzhang, nobody actually knew the true conversation btw them, just that they couldnt agree with each other.

it led to much controversal 'reviews' among mainland chinese, as it portrayed the ppl involved in a manner very differently from the chinese textbooks, yuan shikai wasnt a really bad guy, sun yat sen was pretty eccentric, the foreigners are quite reasonable ppl, etc etc. it was finally banned by the chinese broadcasting corp.

i think that show is the only source i hav to hav much inner view abt that period which is soo fasinating....

so do u mean that
- Yuan shi kai wasnt a really bad guy
- sun yat sen was pretty eccentric
- the foreigners are quite reasonable ppl
are the facts ??

recently there is a documentary on " The Last Emperor of China - Puyi " . they toked abt his life from yrg till a normal citizen.. AMAZING STUFF !!

 

[ponpokku]

u can try 'the modernisation of china' by gilbert rozman, princeton university, if u are more used to english. this guy wrote quite a lot about east asia. try reading some of his other books as well.

 

[markBM]

Any history experts ? How come Tibet is under China rule but VietNam / Korea is independent?


Why is that so? because i find tat korea and vietnam has greater similartieis with China

imperial examination, mandarin officials, emphasise on confucian values

but how come they not under china rule but tibet is

When Taiwan walk out from china then talk,now your house is not safe here,better do something to improve your living.

 

[ponpokku]

i think that show is the only source i hav to hav much inner view abt that period which is soo fasinating....

so do u mean that
- Yuan shi kai wasnt a really bad guy
- sun yat sen was pretty eccentric
- the foreigners are quite reasonable ppl
are the facts ??

recently there is a documentary on " The Last Emperor of China - Puyi " . they toked abt his life from yrg till a normal citizen.. AMAZING STUFF !!

yeah, pretty much factual.

bad guy or not depends on point of view. yuan shikai was pure politician, the nationalists were idealists, so they tend to clash with each other at some point. yuan saw his chance to take over power and he grabbed it. the nationalists got ideas but no guns, lppl had to give in. history books painted yuan shikai as the thief of the republic, and also him signing the treaty of 21 demands with japan, as an act of treason. but again, yuan was a politician, so his actions are usually based on practicality. for example the treaty of 21 demands, there is no way the newly established republic can get rid of the japanese immediately, so at that time the aim would be minimise losses, and yuan purposely leaked out the details. this cause an uproar in the country, and raise the concern from americans and british. all these pressures forced the japanese to back down. even after signing parts of the 21 demands, yuan made life difficult for the japanese stationed in china by cutting off their daily necessities and forbidding them beyond the boundaries of the japanese controlled zones.

sun yat-sen's nickname at that time was 'sun dapao', or 'sun the cannon', cos he's quite 'boastful'. ppl called him that, cos he's so full of visions and kept rallying for the seemingly impossible dream of a republic.

about the foreigners, i can only say that they were in china according to treaties, everything seems 'fair' to them cos its according to the book, but 'unfair' to the chinese cos 'WTF u angmohs doing here? what is ur business here?'. the background was chinese lost both diplomatic and military efforts, so no more bargain chips, no choice they had to give in. about the opium wars, the boxers' rebellion etc, the chinese were partially responsible too. exp the boxers rebellion, empress dowager declared war on 11 western countries first, then tio whack until her mother cant recognise... b4 that, the destruction of yuan ming yuan, also because chinese held a large number of western captives there before and during the war, and the angmohs staged a rescue after that.

the last emperor... heh heh, i got to know his brother-in-law some yrs ago, 90+ ah pek liao, think he could be dead by now. told us a lot of stuff about puyi. speak extremely good japanese. been to japan for studies in his younger days.

 

[padixiong]

the last emperor... heh heh, i got to know his brother-in-law some yrs ago, 90+ ah pek liao, think he could be dead by now. told us a lot of stuff about puyi. speak extremely good japanese. been to japan for studies in his younger days.

i am soo jealous abt u

 

[ponpokku]

nothing much actually. i respect him or puyi as 'historical figures'. but as a real life person he's just like any mainland chinese, or maybe ppl say 'ah tiongs', which we can encounter. when i knew him he was like 91 i think. of cos his life xp, knowledge etc is a treasure. but he's oso at the same time promoting his 'chinese medicine' and 'qi-gong' business which i would say, from first glance, very fishy. since my family was quite into martial arts and also chinese medicine, i think i am in a pretty good position to say so.

so it was like any mainland money and fame business. just that he got an extra aura around him... ex royal family, well versed in different languages, related to the last emperor, etc. it was an enjoyable experience talking to him every time, learning about his early days and so on. but dont be conned into believing anything more than that. his children and grand children probably tried to make use of that special status, but too bad they didnt inherit any of his positive qualities, cant speak their own language, and got no idea what he's actually promoting... chinese saying, aimed too high but hit too low, sad case. he oso tried to paint us a happy picture about his sis and puyi, thou their marriage wasnt really a happy one. guess thats the least he could do for them.

these recent yrs his health deteriorated and we almost stop visiting him. dunno how he's like now. i was introduce to him thru some japanese friends, thou most of them are normal okay ppl, one or two of them were actually harbouring other intentions, like trying to dig out CCP oppression of minority races. but of cos, the chinese are better at calculating risks and he didnt say much on those issues. cultural revolution was one good lesson for those who survived, better talk less than to invite trouble. most of the conversation were about the pre 1945 yrs.

 

[redstone]

Viet was independent, then invaded by the french. Korea was independent, but invaded by the Japs.

Jap lost the war, and had to surrender all its colonies. Following the war, the euro powers decided to let their colonies gradually gain independence due to civil wars for independence in certain colonies (like africa, india).

Then independent again, but this time, both democ and communists want to rule the countries, so there was civil war, then China and US stepped in, intervened and fought. In case of Korea, UN stepped in and divided country into 2. In Viet, the US / democ side surrendered.

 

[ponpokku]

only 'relatively independent' lah.

early 1880s when french invaded, the vietnamese actually asked the chinese for help, and france and china fought sino-french war to decide control over vietnam. it was the only victory for the chinese against angmohs thruout 19th century. but the chinese was so weak, even when they won the fightings, they werent in a position to bargain much. vietnam was lost to the french. so by counting only battles, the chinese won. counting who achieved their political aims, the french won.

same thing in korea. yuan shikai mentioned above was the 'imperial resident of hanseong' (some kind of ambassador). but he was so powerful that he had the final say in all korean policies, and even suppressed a coup by pro japanese factions. so from here we can say that the koreans were only 'relatively independent'. chinese tends to call them 'thousand yrs vassal'(qian nian shu guo). becos of this, the japanese got annoyed and planned a military attack. yuan shikai managed to escape to tianjin in 1894 prior to the japanese attack. after that it was the sino japanese war. yuan was never in good terms with the japanese from then on.