Profitable Group - is it credible?

[pp-vic]

I am at lost what to do & actually plan to go to their office tomorrow afternoon. Since, many of the BIG HEAD are not around, I see no purpose of doing so.
I think we should organise a meeting for all to discuss further about the actions. Anyone want to meet?

 

[Cheap&Gd]

I had 2 CVG plots earlier at 5625 pounds each. Thereafter PG offered to fast tracked these plots to a AAA product giving 12.5%/yr. PG also raised the selling price of CVG plots to 8000 pounds. I exited the 2 plots at 8000 pounds each to buy the AAA product at 13000 pounds. 1 year later in Feb this year, I hounded the MD, Tim Goldring, to return my money + 12.5%.

I also purchased another AAA product with the 'potential' to pay 100%. 1 year later, I decided to let go at principal + 12.5% when I started doubting the company. Encountered some delay as well but not as nerve wreaking as the previous case as this purchase was made earlier.

The net effect was some profit margin despite the losses in FX rates.

 

[joyjoyhope]

Tim Goldring

Cheap&Gd, thanks so much for your info. Could I know how you hounded him? Do you have any contact details to share? I have pestered Simon for contact details of the directors, he refused outright. When he called Chandra for a conference call yesterday, he also refused to give me the number for Chandra, but asked the receptionist to call instead. But as I understand, Tim is the number one man in Profitable Group Singapore. Thanks.

 

[Cheap&Gd]

I'll just say the means I used will no longer be effective. The matter of PG not paying is already in the public domain. Legions of unpaid investors are already spreading the word & hounding the company every minute demanding payment.

It's not right for me to reveal Tim's h/p number. If I provide it, he will simply change it!

I want to add that legal means (even arbitration) will be an expensive one. Getting a judgement in your favour does not mean you will get the money. You will still have to spend money enforcing the judgement. With nothing in their bank account, investors will have to be satisfied getting a writ of seizure to take over the furniture, computers etc & auctioning them for money. Will this be what you want?

Then again, I believe they want to keep the company so that they can still receive monies owed to them from their businesses, so some compromise might still be possible. These are decisions the bosses have to make, not managers.

To get back the money, I suppose extreme measures will be necessary.

 

[henrylbh]

Is PG a recognised or registered entity? I could not find such registered entity in UK or Sg (ACRA).

Before taking action, you need to know exactly which company you going after and whether the company has fund to pay if you win.

If it's a sg registered company that is non-exempt, you can purchased financial info from ACRA at $25.

 

[probono]

Product Based Pyramids ?

I had 2 CVG plots earlier at 5625 pounds each. Thereafter PG offered to fast tracked these plots to a AAA product giving 12.5%/yr. PG also raised the selling price of CVG plots to 8000 pounds. I exited the 2 plots at 8000 pounds each to buy the AAA product at 13000 pounds.

According to all published opinion from any authority that is not associated with the Profitable Group, the Concorde Village site has no chance of development in any realistic timescale.

You exited CVG at a higher price because PG re-priced the product. The UKP declined to such an extent in the same period that you probably lost most of the profit in currency loss. I assume they were able to sell those plots on to other investors at the higher price. The actual value of the underlying land product probably went down in the same period because UK land prices have declined over the last few years (especially land with little or no prospect of planning approval). Without planning approval the only way an 8000 pound plot purchaser can make money is if PG reprice again to 11000 pounds and find more buyers.

They persuaded you to roll your "paper" profit into another product which I guess happens to many investors. I'm glad you were able to exit ok.

From all available evidence the underlying products do not seem to have done anything positive. It does seem like its just money being moved around with commissions being paid each time which would make it more like an expensive, low turnover product based pyramid scheme. Eventually the scheme runs out of new buyers.

What i dont understand is why the Profitable Group AAA and Boron products would not not be a regulated investment schemes by MAS since interest is being offered in the advertising for both.

Perhaps it is because the actual contract is for a product purchase even though the marketing strongly suggests interest bearing investments?

 

[kelvintyy]

What i dont understand is why the Profitable Group AAA and Boron would not not be a regulated investment schemes by MAS since interest is clearly being offered in the advertising for both.

Perhaps it is because the actual contract is for a product purchase even though the marketing strongly suggests interest bearing investments?

Hi probono, on the contract, the 12.5% is not stated. It is not a interest. The contract is a buy-back agreement between you and Profitable Plots Pte Ltd. Upon maturity, the company will buy back from the investor at the Purchase Price.

You can check the contract on their website. Go to Energy Investment, Investors', Purchases agreement.

In layman terms, it means new investors are buying the contract at a 12.5% discount in advance. And 6 months or 1 year later, the company will buy back from them at the purchase price.

It is not explicitly stated as an interest, dividends or profits, hence MAS cannot do anything about it. On their boron brochure, it is stated as a 6 months fixed "return". Never a interest, dividend or profit.

 

[henrylbh]

If the party is identified as Profitable Plots Pte Ltd, go purchased the financial info from ACRA and consider whether worth pursuing the matter. If the company got no means, then too bad. No point pursuing the matter unless you going after the directors personally under the companies act.

 

[probono]

UK Office closed

Is PG a recognised or registered entity? I could not find such registered entity in UK .....

Regarding UK company from these two extracts from published items i would say no company exists :-

UK Guardian Wednesday 29 July 2009
In 2007 three of the directors of Profitable Group – Tim Goldring, Nigel Blanchard and Neil Osborn – were behind the Profitable Plot Company that was the subject of a winding-up petition from the Department of Trade and Industry which was avoided when the company went into voluntary liquidation.

Interview with (recently resigned) Chief Executive John Gaunt: Jun. 11 2009
Although many of its land investment schemes are based in the UK – in places such as Hounslow and Colchester – Gaunt says that Profitable no longer takes on British investors after its UK subsidiary was voluntarily wound up.

A UK subsidiary, The Profitable Plot Company, was voluntarily liquidated in 2007 after failing to “turn a penny”, according to the group’s chief executive John Gaunt

“We don’t take UK business,” he said. “The business regulations in the UK and the manner in which the UK is structured are not conducive to doing business – it’s easier to do business elsewhere.”

In layman terms, it means new investors are buying the contract at a 12.5% discount in advance. And 6 months or 1 year later, the company will buy back from them at the purchase price.

Ahh - OK thanks for explaining. If they havent or don't pay you do you still own the contract with the end consumer? In which case you should be allowed to know who the end consumer contract is with ?

 

[kelvintyy]

Ahh - OK thanks for explaining. If they havent or don't pay you do you still own the contract with the end consumer? In which case you should be allowed to know who the end consumer contract is with ?

I don't think the investors know about the end consumer contract. Because we are told verbally that this investment has no performance risk. That means, if any delay or transaction issue between PP and the end consumers, the investors' returns will not be affected.

However, I checked the brochure again, it has never stated no performance risk. I should do my due diligence and check who are the end consumers in the 1st place. However, stated on the purchase agreement, you will be paid the Purchase Price within 30 days the option expiry.

 

[belledonne99]

I don't think the investors know about the end consumer contract. Because we are told verbally that this investment has no performance risk. That means, if any delay or transaction issue between PP and the end consumers, the investors' returns will not be affected.

Yes, this is provided in the POWER OF ATTORNEY clause I posted earlier

 

[belledonne99]

Taking Profitable Plots Pte Ltd to Small Claims Tribunal (SCT)

I have lodged my case against Profitable Plots Pte Ltd at SCT this morning. The process is very simple. Ask me if you need help.

This will be followed by consultation (which is next week), mediation, hearing, debt recovery procedures. No lawyers are allowed to represent either party.

For Boron, I argued that it is the case of non payment for a contract of sales of goods. Customer paid USD5000 to buy Boron (an industrial oil). The oil is in customer's ownership for 6 months, and thereafter, the goods is to be transferred back to company which is obliged to buy it back at USD5625. The customer has delivered the goods. The company has failed to pay on maturity date & has been constantly delaying payout dates. I therefore seek to invoke clause 6 & 7 of the contract agreement to demand for payment.

Total costs:
Profitable Plots Pte Ltd Business Profile from ACRA - $5
SCT filing fee - $20

 

[henrylbh]

Some updates on how to lodge your case at SCT.

Biz Profile required by SCT - I have purchased Profitable Plots Ptd Ltd from ACRA website for $5. It is in softcopy, which ACRA will send to your email account. Very simple.

In this report, I got to know that the company is audited by Y C Foo & Co. It also contains home addresses of company owners - Nordman and some other directors. Cool.

You could have bought the annual return (with accounts) at $25, more meaningful as it will show more info including financial status as there is no point going after a company that may be insolvent except for purpose of harassing the management.

 

[belledonne99]

You could have bought the annual return (with accounts) at $25, more meaningful as it will show more info including financial status as there is no point going after a company that may be insolvent except for purpose of harassing the management.

I was buying from ACRA what is needed by the SCT to file a case, so not really looking at other reports yet.

 

[henrylbh]

I was buying from ACRA what is needed by the SCT to file a case, so not really looking at other reports yet.

What I am trying to say is find out whether the identified company is solvent or not before spending time and money going SCT. If company insolvent, you get nothing if judgement in is your favour.

 

[henrylbh]

I was buying from ACRA what is needed by the SCT to file a case, so not really looking at other reports yet.

Have you thought of debtor collectors?

 

[Cheap&Gd]

Yes. The mark up was done unilaterally by PG & not a result of market forces or planning permission. I think it's a mistake for them to do a fast track for existing investors

 

[yeokiwi]

Have you thought of debtor collectors?

Wonderful idea.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking+News/Singapore/Story/STIStory_334557.html

If I am going to lose the money, I will make sure that they are not going to have an easy time.

Methods of collection

TRYING to collect the debts can be a challenge.

Mr Lim said he faces debtors who 'play hide-and-seek' by constantly changing their phone numbers and addresses, while others call the police and accuse him of assault and harassment. Some take him to court, he said.

'In debt collection, we are being accused of a lot of things, people use all ways and means to evade debts,' the Singaporean says.

He is unruffled, and even encourages the debtors to take legal action against him, saying: 'When the judge finds out we have not done anything wrong, he will ask them to pay us the debts too, which is good for us.' As for the stubborn cases who 'are obviously filthy rich' yet who refuse to pay even after repeated visits to their offices, Mr Lim resorts to unorthodox measures.

These include wearing his 'uniform,' a T-shirt emblazoned with the words 'BAD debts... collection,' and stationing his staff outside their offices in full view of the public.

For the Lunar New Year, which this year passed on Jan 26, he has a special trick.

'If they don't pay up, I will visit their house on New Year's Day, and wish them a happy new year in front of their family.' Mr Lim stresses that these measures are only for recalcitrants. -- AFP


Since Christmas is coming, probably it is time to pay them a visit at their home during the christmas eve to wish them happy christmas and please return my MONEY!

 

[belledonne99]

What I am trying to say is find out whether the identified company is solvent or not before spending time and money going SCT. If company insolvent, you get nothing if judgement in is your favour.

My assessment is that they won't file for bankruptcy (well, I may be wrong). But if they really claim they don't have money to pay, I will let the Court handle the debt recovery process.

And if they are found to have committed criminal offence (cheating) and have no money to pay, then the business owners better be prepared to go the way of Madoff.

 

[Cheap&Gd]

I think attempts to humiliate them publicly won't have much impact. The only people who can decide whether to pay are angmohs, and angmohs dun react in the same manner as Asians to this type of thing. If they are Chinese, then it's a different story.

Attempt to jam their receipt of payments, covert action to pressurise their staff to leave. I suppose none will buy anything from them anymore, so road shows outside their office is not going to cause any impact to the company's bottom line. Tactics need to be targetted at areas where it will clearly hurt them immediately. Anything else is not likely to work.

I'm not sure SCT will work. Couldn't PG simply refuse to be engaged in any settlement? It's not as if there is a case of dispute. There is no dispute, the company simply cannot pay the legions of debtors. Only the ones inflicting the most pain will get paid.