Problems with Genneva Payout

[Lucy1324]

Bank Negara: Some gold investments are just Ponzi schemes
06 September 2012

PETALING JAYA: Bank Negara Malaysia has cautioned the public against investment schemes especially in precious metals such as gold.

It warned that they could lose their money if they invest in illegal and fraudulent get-rich-quick schemes, also known as Ponzi schemes.

“The investment money collected is used to pay out as high returns to other investors. Such schemes are illegal and fraudulent,” it said in a statement yesterday.

Bank Negara said this in response to conflicting media reports on the Financial Consumer Alert List uploaded on its website.

The list was provided as a quick reference and guide for the public against various financial services offered by non-licensees.

It shows individuals and companies involved in unregulated activities, and had no licence or permit from relevant regulatory bodies such as the Securities Commission of Malaysia, Domestic Trade, Co-operatives and Consumerism Ministry and Companies Commission of Malaysia.

Bank Negara said the list was not exhaustive and would be updated regularly.

The central bank advised the public to check with the relevant authorities when dealing with companies offering seemingly attractive business opportunities or financial services, with no licence issued by the relevant authorities.

“We also like to advise the public that they are free to undertake outright buying and selling of gold.

“However, they should be cautious of various illegal deposit-taking and investment schemes, especially in precious metals such as gold that entice them with high returns.

“These schemes promise high returns over a short period of time with the option to buy back the gold,” it said.

 

[mtepl2012]

What kind of gold should I buy?

What kind of gold should I buy?

We probably get that question more than any other -- pretty much on a daily basis.

The answer, however, is not as straightforward as you might think. What you buy depends upon your goals.

We usually answer the "What should I buy?" question with one of our own: "Why are you interested in buying gold?"

If your goal is simply to hedge financial uncertainty and/or capitalize on price movement, then contemporary bullion coins will serve your purposes.

Those concerned with the possibility of capital controls and a gold seizure, or call-in, often include historic pre-1933 gold coins in their planning.

Both the contemporary bullion coins and historic gold coins trade at modest premiums over their gold melt value, track the gold price, and enjoy good liquidity internationally.

 

[mtepl2012]

When should I buy gold?

The short answer is 'When you need it.'

Gold, first and foremost, is wealth insurance. You cannot approach it the way you approach stock or real estate investments. Timing is not the real issue.

The first question you need to ask yourself is whether or not you believe you need to own gold. If you answer that question in the affirmative, there is no point in delaying your actual purchase, or waiting for a more favorable price which may or may not appear. Cost averaging can be a good strategy.

The real goal is to diversify so that your overall wealth is not compromised by economic dangers and uncertainties like the kind generated by the 2008 financial crisis, or those now unfolding in Europe.

 

[mtepl2012]

Why not wait for the necessity to arise, then buy gold?

Over the past few years, as concern about a financial and economic breakdown spread, there were periods of gold coin bottlenecks and actual shortages.

In 2008-2009 at the height of the financial crisis, demand was so great that the national mints could not keep up with it.

The flow of historic gold coins from Europe was also insufficient to meet accelerating demand both there and in the United States. Premiums shot-up on all gold coins and a scramble developed for what was available.

There is an old saying that the best time to buy gold is when everything is quiet. I would underline that sentiment.

 

[mtepl2012]

Can you give us a profile of the typical gold investor?

Gold owners are a group of people I have come to know very well in my nearly 40 years in the business.

Contrary to the less than flattering picture sometimes painted by the mainstream press, the people we have helped become gold owners are among those we rely upon most in our daily lives -- our physicians and dentists, nurses and teachers, plumbers, carpenters and building contractors, business owners, attorneys, engineers and university professors (to name a few.)

In other words, gold ownership is pretty much a Main Street endeavor. A recent Gallup poll found that 34% of investors rated gold the best investment "regardless of gender, age, income or party ID. . ."

In that survey, gold was rated higher than stocks, bonds, real estate and bank savings.

 

[mtepl2012]

What about high net worth investors?

Traditionally, wealthy, aristocratic European and Asian families have kept a strong percentage of their assets in gold as a protective factor.

The long term economic picture for the United States has changed enormously over the past several years.

As a result, that same philosophy has taken hold here particularly among those interested in preserving their wealth both for themselves and for their families from one generation to the next.

In recent years, we have helped a good many family trusts diversify with gold coins and bullion at the advice of their portfolio managers.

 

[mtepl2012]

Gold as insurance

Gold's baseline, essential quality is its role as the only primary asset that is not someone else's liability.

That separates gold from the majority of capital assets which in fact do rely on another's ability to pay, like bonds and bank savings, or the performance of the management, or some other delimiting factor, as is the case with stocks.

The first chapter of the ABCs of Gold Investing ends with this: "No matter what happens in this country, with the dollar, with the stock and bond markets, the gold owner will find a friend in the yellow metal -- something to rely upon when the chips are down. In gold, investors will find a vehicle to protect their wealth. Gold is bedrock."

 

[mtepl2012]

What percentage of my assets should I invest in gold?

Once again the answer is not cut and dry, but a general rule of thumb is 10% to 30%.

How high you go between 10% and 30% depends upon how concerned you are about the current economic, financial and political situation.

Recently, CNBC television commentator Jim Cramer strongly advocated a 20% gold diversification.

 

[mtepl2012]

What is the best approach for the safe-haven Gold investor?

If you want to protect yourself against inflation, deflation, stock market weakness and potential currency problems -- in other words, if you want to hedge financial uncertainties, there is only one portfolio item that will serve you in all seasons and under most circumstances -- gold coins and bullion.

Make sure you do your homework on the company with which you choose to do business, and make sure that the gold ownership vehicle you choose truly reflects your goals and aspirations.

 

[Lover_Handphone]

Not what you buy, but WHO you buy from !

What kind of gold should I buy?

We probably get that question more than any other -- pretty much on a daily basis.

The answer, however, is not as straightforward as you might think. What you buy depends upon your goals.

We usually answer the "What should I buy?" question with one of our own: "Why are you interested in buying gold?"

If your goal is simply to hedge financial uncertainty and/or capitalize on price movement, then contemporary bullion coins will serve your purposes.

Those concerned with the possibility of capital controls and a gold seizure, or call-in, often include historic pre-1933 gold coins in their planning.

Both the contemporary bullion coins and historic gold coins trade at modest premiums over their gold melt value, track the gold price, and enjoy good liquidity internationally.

Buying and trading gold for investment is fine.

The question is from whom you are buying the gold from.

Buying gold from private limited (PTE LTD) companies like Genneva, TGG etc, which touted high capital gains of up 24% p.a., and in house buy-back (discretionary to the goldcos advantage) option, is NOT ADVISABLE. These goldcos are fly by night operators which come and go as their directors desire, absconding with all the victims' money, of course. Remember Bao Jing (Sept 2011) and The Gold Label.

MAS has an Alert List for these gold trading companies which are not regulated by MAS.

Buy and trade gold from a regulated platform like a major banking institution like UOB.

ps - I don't work for UOB, I am not here selling gold for UOB.

 

[Lover_Handphone]

Keep your gold !

After reading so many postings, I now realised why UOB had no more stocks of several categories of bullions including the 1 ounce.

I am the guy who posted up the picts of Metalor gold bullion with tungsten rods. While I have much more full confidence in UOB sealed Pamp suisse gold bars, I would feel very insecure with other brands without UOB sealant.

May I suggest to the genuine gold investors to hold on to their gold bars instead of placing back into the companies for a little payout.

There are two ways we can see this:
1. Gold companies are deliberately throwing up a ruse to discourage investors from placing with them to avoid a drawdown on their capital due to massive outflow from the monthly 2% payoffs given to their investors.
2. The firms are having a cashflow problem, and all these mumurings of them having real cashflow problems are real.

In either both scenarios, it would be safer to hold the bars by your side even with the 30% markup that you paid up already.
Investors have a choice of either losing 30% or losing it all.

Besides that, gold bars can be left for posterity, ie. your descendants.
I can bet with my last cent in my account, the gold bars you bought previously will be far cheaper than what your grandchildren will pay for.
Look at the bars as a legacy for them.

Ultimately, its your choice.

I agree with you Arty79. Keeping the physical gold with you at the present moment seems the better option.

 

[Paramis]

We did investment in Geneva last year. Did get nice handouts.

The guy who represented Geneva was kind enough to warn us about imminent financial issues with the co and urged us to sell back. Sold back everything by Q1 this yr and heng, no issue now

lucky you, my agent convinced me to buy another gold bar in Jul 2012 knowing very well she's not paid comm for several months. hence huge loss

 

[Lucy1324]

Make sure you do your homework on the company with which you choose to do business, and make sure that the gold ownership vehicle you choose truly reflects your goals and aspirations.

Choose UOB and SGX.

 

[Lover_Handphone]

The Blinding Glitter of Gold

AN INTERESTING ARTICLE FROM THE STAR
============================
THE BLINDING GLITTER OF GOLD
============================

SUN 05-08-2012 ( THE STAR, DOTS, PG 10)
An Excerpt from the article (first published in the S’PORE Straits Times)

Low risk, high returns?

In Singapore, gold buy-back schemes sound extremely attractive as they appear to be low-risk ventures that offer high returns.

Here’s how a typical scheme works:

You buy physical gold from an entity at a purported discount of say 1.5% to 2% and you may choose to take the actual gold coins or bars home.

The entity then offers to buy the gold back at the original sale price after a fixed period of time, regardless of gold price fluctuations.

It would appear that you get to earn a 1.5% to 2% return when you sell the gold back. In reality, the consumer’s purchase price is actually a premium to the prices offered by goldsmiths or banks for the similar grade of gold. So, the consumer is in fact paying more for the gold by participating in the buy-back scheme.

At one entity, the purported discount is actually a substantial premium of 20% to 30% to the market price.

Beware of the risks

What you have to note about companies offering gold buy-back schemes is that they typically do not tell you how they generate those returns.
This should raise red flags.

If you don’t know how the returns are generated, how can you assess what the risks are, how sustainable the returns are and what can go wrong?

Remember that there are no free lunches when it comes to investments.
Some of the entities offering gold buy-back schemes in Singapore have been liquidated as they were unable to sustain their unrealistic business model. The result is losses for the consumers.

So, be cautious. Don’t feel pressured to rush into such schemes without first thinking it through and doing your homework and reading up on the viability of the schemes.

Remember that many of these entities that offer gold “buy-back schemes” are not regulated by the authorities which, in the case of Singapore, is the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS).

Some of these entities – for instance, Genneva and The Gold Label – are included in the MAS Investor Alert List of unregulated persons who, based on information received by the MAS, may have been wrongly perceived as being licensed by the authority.

The listing includes those operating in Singapore as well as those based overseas.

You can access the list from the MAS website (MAS) or the MoneySENSE website (www.moneysense.gov.sg).

While it is useful to check if the entity you want to deal with is on the Investor Alert List, do note that the list is not exhaustive and that it is updated only from time to time.

So, even if an entity is not on the list, it does not mean that it is regulated by the MAS.

Ask before you dive in

How is the entity going to pay you?

How are the returns generated?

If the entity tells you that this is a trade secret or that it is confidential information, how can you assess the risks? And how will you know if the returns are sustainable?

What are the terms and conditions?

If you have a complaint, is there anyone you can approach with it?

If you are told that you are buying gold at a discount, do you know that for sure?

You can check how the price compares with the price of gold bars at, say, goldsmith shops.

If you are told that you can sell your gold bar in the open market and potentially earn a return, have you checked where you can do that and at what price?

You can simply visit some goldsmith shops to find out.

What happens if the entity folds?

Some schemes may hand over the physical gold bar to the consumers while others may hold the gold bar in custody for consumers. If it is the latter, you may be left empty-handed in the event that the entity folds.
Your entire capital may be lost, particularly if the entity has not earmarked the gold for the consumer, but has instead recycled it for multiple consumers.

Even in the case where you have custody of the gold bar, there is still a lot to lose if you paid an inflated price for the gold. You would incur a loss if you were to sell it in the open market.

 

[SuperHunk3488]

Genneva Agents are ass hole!!!!!

lucky you, my agent convinced me to buy another gold bar in Jul 2012 knowing very well she's not paid comm for several months. hence huge loss

Those bloody Agents in genneva still trying to do sales now are really...... pcs of **** remember this... KARMA!!!! it will happened to your love one...(well maybe you have no one to love... so you lor)

STOP SELLING NOW!!!!!!! CCB GENNEVA AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[transform]

If you are not being Paid for more than 3 months will you still want to work for that Company ? Always change policies and give empty promises. Even worst Pay for your Own Reward ( Company's Trip ).

 

[jackong78]

Companies with simliar scheme

Seems like there are more and more similar companies arising out of Singapore. So far, i know 6. Anyone like to add on?
1)Genneva
2)TGG
3)Asia pacific Bullion
4)Royal gold
5)Virgin Gold
6)Sg gold

 

[gennevacomplaingroup]

If you are not being Paid for more than 3 months will you still want to work for that Company ? Always change policies and give empty promises. Even worst Pay for your Own Reward ( Company's Trip ).

Sad to say there's still some hope in helping the Genneva customers but for Genneva agents it will be extremely difficult. In the impending legal proceedings to come against Genneva by its customers, the agents might be deemed as providing misleading information to their customers.

Our members have all agreed that partial responsibility falls on the agents and if Genneva refuses to pay or have no money to pay, efforts might be taken against their agents.

Currently, some agents even gave excuses or painted a rosy picture of Genneva and its situation to their customers even after so many complaint cases were highloghted in the recent newspaper article. Even worse, Genneva agents are still trying to get new customers to buy!

We strongly urge Genneva agents not to continue selling to new customers, it will only make things worse for them.

 

[gennevacomplaingroup]

Seems like there are more and more similar companies arising out of Singapore. So far, i know 6. Anyone like to add on?
1)Genneva
2)TGG
3)Asia pacific Bullion
4)Royal gold
5)Virgin Gold
6)Sg gold

There will be even more such gold companies sprouting out in Singapore in the near future due to the lifting of the 7% GST on Gold commencing on 1st October 2012.

However, more information is needed on SG Gold and would appreciate if anyone can share here.

 

[The voice]

Seems like there are more and more similar companies arising out of Singapore. So far, i know 6. Anyone like to add on?
1)Genneva
2)TGG
3)Asia pacific Bullion
4)Royal gold
5)Virgin Gold
6)Sg gold

Sorry to bring this up again. Kindly do a little more research on the companies that you have listed. It's easy to judge, but make sure you make the right judgement.