After AWARE, the Xtian fundis are out to play again

ProLogic

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Tan Seow Hon
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01 April

It was nearly 40 years ago that Singapore liberalised its abortion laws. These recently made the news again when several Members of Parliament, during the Committee of Supply debate last month, called for adoption instead of abortion to be considered by those who were pregnant but did not want to keep their children.

Our current abortion laws are contained in the Termination of Pregnancy Act, which is a consolidation of statutes on abortion in the 1985 Revised Edition of the Singapore Statutes. It is one of the most liberal in the world, allowing abortion without restriction as to reason for up to 24 weeks of pregnancy.

Except for several amendments, this Act is substantially the same as the 1974 Abortion Act, which radically liberalised abortion as compared with the 1969 Abortion Act. The 1969 Act in turn was regarded as controversial in its time and was extensively debated in Parliament — prior to that, an abortion by a registered medical practitioner was permitted only on purely medical grounds to save the life of the woman.

Under the 1969 Act, other than when abortion was immediately necessary to save the life or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman, abortions might be performed by a registered medical practitioner acting under authorisation by the Termination of Pregnancy Authorisation Board.

The board was allowed to authorise abortion if one of four grounds existed: The life of the pregnant woman or injury to her physical or mental health was at stake; certain circumstances (such as financial difficulties) of the pregnant woman were present; there were substantial risks that the child would be born with physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped; and when the pregnancy had been the result of rape or incest or intercourse with an insane or feeble-minded person.

The 1974 Act removed the need for authorisation by the board, the grounds of abortion, and the requirement of parental consent for young pregnant women.

STILL PROPERLY JUSTIFIED?

Legislation should be properly justified in a democracy. If the reasons to back a law are no longer valid, or the social context has changed, a review of the law is in order to see if new reasons support the law as it stands, or if the law should be amended. I argue that our abortion laws should be thoroughly reviewed in Parliament.

The reasons for liberalisation decades ago had included the population explosion, which is irrelevant today. Then there was the eugenic argument, cited in 1969, to rebut groups that had argued for the sanctity of the unborn: They were told to witness for themselves the care of “mental defectives” at Woodbridge Hospital. The then-Minister of Health said “it (was) an acknowledged social evil to countenance the breeding of defectives in society”.

Another justification for legalising abortion in the past was the harm that might result from backstreet abortions, to which pregnant women would resort if no legal means of abortion were available.

Today, this fear is unfounded. In our social context today, which is vastly different, stricter abortion laws are more likely to lead people to be circumspect about unprotected sex, than to drive them to backstreet abortionists.

In the ’70s when liberal abortion laws were passed, people had to be educated about family planning and had no easy access to common contraceptive methods used today. Where did they have to go to obtain contraception? Did they have anonymity of access?

Today, some methods of contraception are widely available, with even a pharmacy in a university campus making the news recently for selling condoms. Anybody walking up to the cash registers of convenience stores in petrol kiosks and supermarkets can purchase them without hassle.

Moreover, whereas in the past, some might not have had easy access to information about methods of contraception, such information is now readily available on the Internet.

In fact, we should ask whether the four decades of liberal abortion laws have played a part in enabling people to organise their sexual relationships and make choices about sex without protection, knowing that they would have easy legal access to abortion should they get pregnant. It does not seem likely that in the majority of instances of abortion, contraception was used and failed.

And given our effective control of drugs and other social ills, to claim that we fear we cannot successfully prevent harmful backstreet abortions is defeatist and ignores our track record in legal regulation.

CHOICES AND ATTITUDES

With stricter laws that render it harder or impermissible to undergo abortions, some may have to learn the hard way but, it is probable that many more would organise their sexual relationships differently, choosing contraception.

Today, some prefer to dissociate the act of abortion from the squeamish images and moral overtones the word conjures in referring to the termination of a pregnancy. But contrary to the anticipation of the then-Minister for Health in 1969, views opposing abortion have not ended up “in the dustbins of history”. Abortion remains controversial today.

For example, only two weeks ago, CNN reported that in America, North Dakota legislators “approved two anti-abortion bills, including one that would ban most abortions after six weeks — when a fetal heartbeat can be first detected”.

In Singapore as we confront the high ratio of the number of abortions to the number of live births, we must admit that it says something about a cavalier attitude towards the worth of the unborn — an attitude that continues to be facilitated by current laws.

Chief Justice Sundaresh Menon expressed in his speech on euthanasia, delivered at the Singapore Medical Association Annual Lecture, that “(l)aw is the expression of society’s choices about the policy choices we will live by”.

Moving forward, is this what we are comfortable with as a nation?

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:

Tan Seow Hon is an Associate Professor at the School of Law at Singapore Management University.

Time again to review abortion laws | TODAYonline

A couple of things, she is the same gang as thio li ban and she ever wrote a ST letter asking the state to criminalize abortion to boost birth rates.

Second, she belongs to the same group that does not want schools to teach sex ed esp stuff about contraceptives and yet she is claiming that contraceptives and knowledge about contraceptives is increasing (well actually it is). TBH I have no idea how she got her stats and I think they are inaccurate.

Lastly, "In Singapore as we confront the high ratio of the number of abortions to the number of live births, we must admit that it says something about a cavalier attitude towards the worth of the unborn — an attitude that continues to be facilitated by current laws"... really?? Are you sure that women/parents are just going aiya just abort nia or do they mull over these decisions....

My common sense tells me that the abortion debate must be debated on the arguments that both sides use. No need to put blame on Christian fundies which only skew the debate from focusing on issue to people chiu dislike. My logic tells me that even if argument is from Christian fundies also doesn't mean the argument is therefore wrong or not valid. :vijayadmin:
 

NTB2DO

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For your information, plenty of things you do in life can hurt your body in one way or another, even jogging. :s13:

Your previous replies say that you suggest to install a fine for those who go for repeated abortions, but yet you keep insisting that it is meant to protect those who may be emotionally affected, which are mainly the first timers.

While we understand your wish to bring the males into this, are you sure that your suggestion is the best way of doing it? For one, what if the female has multiple partners? Does the female and her partner even wish to know?

Have you ever gone for a sex education class? You seem rather hooked on the notion that all the sex education teachers are pushing abortion like some sort of drug, where in actuality it is usually taught professionally together with its consequences and potential side effects. I say usually because of the natural deviation in quality of teachers. This is again reiterated when the female goes for pre abortion counseling.

No one is right, and no one is wrong.



You keep harping on your moral system. But everyone is trying to tell you that ultimately it is **YOUR** moral system. We all respect your wishes to teach your children in your own way. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.

Do note that everyone here is not saying that abortion is some sort of lucky draw that everyone should be engaging in regularly. The pro-choice stance is that the choice is left up to the person to make it freely, while providing all the information necessary for her to make a well formed decision.



No one has suggested to tell them that.

My initial stance is to fine just the male, particularly one who makes his partner/partners pregnant and then either ditches the partner or persuades her to "just abort it"..

I'm not against fining the female, but it's only for the purpose of discouraging them from undergoing repeated abortion lah, it's NOT meant to be a punishment. I concede that I shouldn't have said it's ok to fine the female too lor--since having to undergo abortion is already a punishment (at least to me)..

And please read carefully hor, NOT everyone is saying that abortion is no trivial matter hor, you do have people here who said that if you want to abort, just abort lor. Since I consider fetus as a life (fine. It's just *MY* moral system), abortion should be regarded as a serious matter, not just some mere procedure like, say, liposuction.

Lastly, I didn't any attend sex education class, but I think I do have some idea what they are gonna teach. And FYI, so far I've given consent to all my kids attending the program, cos I also don't believe the program will present abortion as one of their "lifestyle" choice lor. (BTW if they really do that, I also never say that they should scrap the program, did I? I said I will not consent to my kids attending it; if others want their kids to attend, it's their own business.)
 

Chlorpheniramine

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My initial stance is to fine just the male, particularly one who makes his partner/partners pregnant and then either ditches the partner or persuades her to "just abort it"..

I'm not against fining the female, but it's only for the purpose of discouraging them from undergoing repeated abortion lah, it's NOT meant to be a punishment. I concede that I shouldn't have said it's ok to fine the female too lor--since having to undergo abortion is already a punishment (at least to me)..

And please read carefully hor, NOT everyone is saying that abortion is no trivial matter hor, you do have people here who said that if you want to abort, just abort lor. Since I consider fetus as a life (fine. It's just *MY* moral system), abortion should be regarded as a serious matter, not just some mere procedure like, say, liposuction.

Lastly, I didn't any attend sex education class, but I think I do have some idea what they are gonna teach. And FYI, so far I've given consent to all my kids attending the program, cos I also don't believe the program will present abortion as one of their "lifestyle" choice lor. (BTW if they really do that, I also never say that they should scrap the program, did I? I said I will not consent to my kids attending it; if others want their kids to attend, it's their own business.)

I was about to start replying to your tirade against me, then I read this. Here you've qualified some of your earlier statements, so it's pointless to respond.

However, the "just abort lor" you keep harping on is obviously targeted at me, so here's my response.

I absolutely stand by what I said. Want to abort, just abort lor. You forget, though, that abortion is an invasive medical procedure, and like all such procedures, a full explanation is provided to patients, including risks and side effects, if any. If they choose to go ahead, well, just abort lor. Serious matter or not, let the individual decide.

I am utterly against not-so-subtle forms of guilt inducement in the form of videos like "The Silent Scream", sermonising on religious or moral grounds, or forcing pregnant women to watch graphic videos of the procedure. For the last one, if it is compulsory to screen similarly graphic videos to patients undergoing any and all forms of surgery, then I gladly remove my objection.

Disclaimer: I have not seen the current video shown in local abortion clinics, so I can't comment on it specifically.
 

NTB2DO

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I was about to start replying to your tirade against me, then I read this. Here you've qualified some of your earlier statements, so it's pointless to respond.

However, the "just abort lor" you keep harping on is obviously targeted at me, so here's my response.

I absolutely stand by what I said. Want to abort, just abort lor. You forget, though, that abortion is an invasive medical procedure, and like all such procedures, a full explanation is provided to patients, including risks and side effects, if any. If they choose to go ahead, well, just abort lor. Serious matter or not, let the individual decide.

I am utterly against not-so-subtle forms of guilt inducement in the form of videos like "The Silent Scream", sermonising on religious or moral grounds, or forcing pregnant women to watch graphic videos of the procedure. For the last one, if it is compulsory to screen similarly graphic videos to patients undergoing any and all forms of surgery, then I gladly remove my objection.

Disclaimer: I have not seen the current video shown in local abortion clinics, so I can't comment on it specifically.

This (in bold), plus my view that we are talking about a life here, are the reasons why I strongly disagree with that "if want to abort, abort lor" comment of yours.

But I'm against guilt inducement too. Cos to me, the procedure itself is already a punishment. (Though there are always exceptions, I don't believe most women wouldn't be adversely affected by it lor.)

Anyway I get what you mean now. Looks like I've mistaken you lor--I perceive your comment as something which a guy who insist on having unprotected sex would say to his partner. Such behaviour is simply unacceptable--by any standard.
 

evildemon

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My initial stance is to fine just the male, particularly one who makes his partner/partners pregnant and then either ditches the partner or persuades her to "just abort it"..

I'm not against fining the female, but it's only for the purpose of discouraging them from undergoing repeated abortion lah, it's NOT meant to be a punishment. I concede that I shouldn't have said it's ok to fine the female too lor--since having to undergo abortion is already a punishment (at least to me)..

And please read carefully hor, NOT everyone is saying that abortion is no trivial matter hor, you do have people here who said that if you want to abort, just abort lor. Since I consider fetus as a life (fine. It's just *MY* moral system), abortion should be regarded as a serious matter, not just some mere procedure like, say, liposuction.

Lastly, I didn't any attend sex education class, but I think I do have some idea what they are gonna teach. And FYI, so far I've given consent to all my kids attending the program, cos I also don't believe the program will present abortion as one of their "lifestyle" choice lor. (BTW if they really do that, I also never say that they should scrap the program, did I? I said I will not consent to my kids attending it; if others want their kids to attend, it's their own business.)

Good that you explained further, but to solve your issue, a method should be found to identify runaway males, while not affecting the lifestyle choices of all other females.

You are taking a stance against Chlorpheniramine, which is why I believe you are taking his/her comment personally. The comment "just abort lor" is precisely the stance of pro choice supporters, wherein they completely respect the female's choice. It affects not us that the female chooses to abort a child so there should be no particular reason to respond differently. It does not mean Chlorpheniramine is encouraging abortion over other methods of birth control.

This (in bold), plus my view that we are talking about a life here, are the reasons why I strongly disagree with that "if want to abort, abort lor" comment of yours.

But I'm against guilt inducement too. Cos to me, the procedure itself is already a punishment. (Though there are always exceptions, I don't believe most women wouldn't be adversely affected by it lor.)

Anyway I get what you mean now. Looks like I've mistaken you lor--I perceive your comment as something which a guy who insist on having unprotected sex would say to his partner. Such behaviour is simply unacceptable--by any standard.

Out of curiosity, why should it affect you if a guy insists on having unprotected sex with his partner? Isn't it something that should be between the couple only? Do we really need to start legislating everything that people can and cannot think or say?

Edited due to misinterpretation of the statement to mean that NTB2DO was suggesting to have law against that. Realized it was referring to a personal acceptance.
 
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ProLogic

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That's the position of most anti-abortionist. Hence why they lost the debate previously and why they continue to lose the debate.

My logic is telling me this picture suggests otherwise.:vijayadmin:

11413-224x300.jpg


Admission: I neber read that Time article. :D
 

ProLogic

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Amusing, isn't it? It started off with I saying that you can't just say abort, abort lor cos to me, this is a life.

Then you suddenly become oh so righteous and insist that if this is a life, or as long as I regard this is a life, then no matter under what circumstance you must protect the life!!

So the SINGLE criteria to you is, do you consider the fetus as a life? If yes, no abortion. If you are not against abortion, then you cannot regard the fetus as a life, cos a life cannot abort one ok.

Wow I see you are sooooo much more pro-life than I do (shame on me, hor), perhaps as pro-life as the staunchest Christens do--except that Christens, if I'm not wrong, consider life starts in the womb, whereas to you, life only start at birth; the fetus is merely a lump of dispensable fresh, not a life yet.

(I still keep--and a while ago, have taken a good look at the ultra-sound scan photo of one of my kids at 10 weeks gestation. In the photo, you can clearly see the outline of his eyelid, nose, mouth and chin liao. But alas, to you, since he's not born yet--he only becomes "a life" in your eyes 7 months later--this is just a "lump of fresh" which, if you don't want it, "just abort lor"..)

Scientists are agreed that life begin at conception. :vijayadmin:

When Life Begins - Robert P. George - National Review Online
 

ProLogic

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I was about to start replying to your tirade against me, then I read this. Here you've qualified some of your earlier statements, so it's pointless to respond.

However, the "just abort lor" you keep harping on is obviously targeted at me, so here's my response.

I absolutely stand by what I said. Want to abort, just abort lor. You forget, though, that abortion is an invasive medical procedure, and like all such procedures, a full explanation is provided to patients, including risks and side effects, if any. If they choose to go ahead, well, just abort lor. Serious matter or not, let the individual decide.

I am utterly against not-so-subtle forms of guilt inducement in the form of videos like "The Silent Scream", sermonising on religious or moral grounds, or forcing pregnant women to watch graphic videos of the procedure. For the last one, if it is compulsory to screen similarly graphic videos to patients undergoing any and all forms of surgery, then I gladly remove my objection.

Disclaimer: I have not seen the current video shown in local abortion clinics, so I can't comment on it specifically.

My logic is telling me that if chiu believe there is nothing wrong with abortion then there will not be any guilt induced by this kind of video. There ish nothing to feel sorry about. Maybe some people are ignorant, so when they see these kind of videos their conscience is awakened and they then feel sorry and feel guilty. My logic tell me this is OK.
 

NTB2DO

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Good that you explained further, but to solve your issue, a method should be found to identify runaway males, while not affecting the lifestyle choices of all other females.

You are taking a stance against Chlorpheniramine, which is why I believe you are taking his/her comment personally. The comment "just abort lor" is precisely the stance of pro choice supporters, wherein they completely respect the female's choice. It affects not us that the female chooses to abort a child so there should be no particular reason to respond differently. It does not mean Chlorpheniramine is encouraging abortion over other methods of birth control.



Out of curiosity, why should it affect you if a guy insists on having unprotected sex with his partner? Isn't it something that should be between the couple only? Do we really need to start legislating everything that people can and cannot think or say?

Edited due to misinterpretation of the statement to mean that NTB2DO was suggesting to have law against that. Realized it was referring to a personal acceptance.

By right, most women would know who the father is (except maybe that she's a sex worker, or she persistently engaged in ONS with strangers). And I suspect most of the time, it's the same man: impregnanted his partner/partners, persuade her/them to abort, and impregnanted her/them again, so on and so forth. All because he finds it a hassle to use precaution. After all, it's the woman who undergoes abortion, not him.

As for that "want to abort, abort lor" comment. Ya Chlorpheniramine already explained to me that it's not meant to mean what I thought it to mean. Before that I've find his/her comment kinda irresponsible: just change "abort" to "die" (want to die, die lor) and you'll get what I mean liao.

Or, the man telling his partner--who's voicing out her fear of becoming pregnant: "Don't worry lah, when you go abortion, they'll also tell you that if you want to abort, just abort lor."

(Fortunately, we managed to clear our misunderstanding!!!)
 

NTB2DO

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My logic is telling me that if chiu believe there is nothing wrong with abortion then there will not be any guilt induced by this kind of video. There ish nothing to feel sorry about. Maybe some people are ignorant, so when they see these kind of videos their conscience is awakened and they then feel sorry and feel guilty. My logic tell me this is OK.

I read that there are cases of abortion-seeking women who, upon hearing the heartbeat or seeing unltra-sound scan image of the fetus, change their minds and decide to keep the baby after all..
 

sunzoner

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I read that there are cases of abortion-seeking women who, upon hearing the heartbeat or seeing unltra-sound scan image of the fetus, change their minds and decide to keep the baby after all..

And there are cases of women killing their own babies after it was born because the baby is unwanted. Your point being? Exception proving the rule?
 

sunzoner

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By right, most women would know who the father is (except maybe that she's a sex worker, or she persistently engaged in ONS with strangers). And I suspect most of the time, it's the same man: impregnanted his partner/partners, persuade her/them to abort, and impregnanted her/them again, so on and so forth. All because he finds it a hassle to use precaution. After all, it's the woman who undergoes abortion, not him.

As for that "want to abort, abort lor" comment. Ya Chlorpheniramine already explained to me that it's not meant to mean what I thought it to mean. Before that I've find his/her comment kinda irresponsible: just change "abort" to "die" (want to die, die lor) and you'll get what I mean liao.

Or, the man telling his partner--who's voicing out her fear of becoming pregnant: "Don't worry lah, when you go abortion, they'll also tell you that if you want to abort, just abort lor."

(Fortunately, we managed to clear our misunderstanding!!!)

And the woman accept it. You see. This is a choice made by the women!
 

NTB2DO

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And there are cases of women killing their own babies after it was born because the baby is unwanted. Your point being? Exception proving the rule?

My point being, given the right advices and action, there's a likelihood that the fetus will not need to die after all..

It's like counselling someone who's contemplating suicide. The counsellor will need to identify the best means to make him/her change his/her mind. Means like persuasion, getting his/her family members/friends to comfort him/her, etc. If, despite their efforts, the person is still determined, perhap--and esp if you are one staunch "pro-choice" believer--we could only give up.. (But of cos, even then you should never ever tell him/her, "We already tried our best to help you liao, so if you (still) want to die, die lor".)
 

NTB2DO

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And the woman accept it. You see. This is a choice made by the women!

Haha this sounds like what an irresponsible man will say--when he's confronted by family members of the girl whom he has impregnated, demanding him to take responsibility: "She accepted it what, I didn't force (on) her hor.."
 

Geforce3

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Haha this sounds like what an irresponsible man will say--when he's confronted by family members of the girl whom he has impregnated, demanding him to take responsibility: "She accepted it what, I didn't force (on) her hor.."

machiam like the female got no agency, no mind of her own
 

sunzoner

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My point being, given the right advices and action, there's a likelihood that the fetus will not need to die after all..

It's like counselling someone who's contemplating suicide. The counsellor will need to identify the best means to make him/her change his/her mind. Means like persuasion, getting his/her family members/friends to comfort him/her, etc. If, despite their efforts, the person is still determined, perhap--and esp if you are one staunch "pro-choice" believer--we could only give up.. (But of cos, even then you should never ever tell him/her, "We already tried our best to help you liao, so if you (still) want to die, die lor".)

And there is an equal likelihood the female will choose to abort. Since you are going on about multiple abortion., it could be that the choices made veers towards abortion. Hence, to defend your moral values, you seek to impose a fine on those who made a different decision. Why? Because only your moral values/choices are correct?
 

ProLogic

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I read that there are cases of abortion-seeking women who, upon hearing the heartbeat or seeing unltra-sound scan image of the fetus, change their minds and decide to keep the baby after all..

My common sense is telling me that in such cases the videos have served their intended purpose. My common sense is also telling me that many times people also don't know what they are doing, they just panic and react to people telling them to abort the baby to get rid of the problem.
 

acetylcholine

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Haha this sounds like what an irresponsible man will say--when he's confronted by family members of the girl whom he has impregnated, demanding him to take responsibility: "She accepted it what, I didn't force (on) her hor.."

You need to learn how to draw a clear distinction between law and morality. While law may indeed be guided by morality, it would be ridiculous if the State were to legislate for every aspect of morality. In fact, you are working on the assumption that every one agrees with your conception of morality, which is hardly the case in reality. If reasonable minds can differ with regard to the scope of morality, there would be a strong case for the State to take a step back and let private parties decide on which course of action they wish to adopt.

In fact, up to the point where you argue that abortion is bad, I am in complete agreement with you. But when you go on to make an argument that the logical consequence would be for the State to intervene and impose fines (on both males and females) for abortion, that is far too simplistic. Just because something is bad or immoral does not necessarily mean that the State has to intervene and regulate private behavior.

You can choose to bring up your kids the right way, but do not deprive others from making choices on the basis of your conception of morality.
 

sunzoner

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My common sense is telling me that in such cases the videos have served their intended purpose. My common sense is also telling me that many times people also don't know what they are doing, they just panic and react to people telling them to abort the baby to get rid of the problem.

Unfortunately, common sense is indeed uncommon.

Your first statement seem ok. But your second is definately value-laden.

How do you know that the fetus is "the problem"? Why would a video make "the problem" becomes not a problem?

While in certain instance, some choose not to abort after the video, in how many of such instances, the video is the key reason?

How many people to choose to abort even after watching the video? Since the video is mandatory, I would assume more aborted after watching the video than not. In that case, wouldnt the video be not serving its purpose most of the time?
 
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