6% Annual Yield

revhappy

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The huge gap between earnings and price just before the GFC didnt predict the subsequent crash in stock prices, so I'm not sure what the point is with this chart...

Its impossible to know if stocks are overvalued or cheap right now because the E in P/E is an unknown and dynamic variable. This is why I think P/E is a worthless indicator for valuing stocks.

As Shiller himself said, it is difficult to predict next year or the year after what the market will do based on current valuations. But it is easier to predict what the markets will do a decade from now.

So it is not worthless. Do you believe earnings can keep going up unabated, or is there is a likelyhood that they can fall also, once in a while. And if they fall, there is no valuation comfort that was there in the past so the fall is likely to be harder.
 

revhappy

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Yesterday, I watched the movie called Margin Call in Netflix, nice movie. There is a dialogue :

Sam Rogers : You are panicking.
John Tuld : If you're first out the door, that's not called panicking.

:)
 

3dfxplayer

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As Shiller himself said, it is difficult to predict next year or the year after what the market will do based on current valuations. But it is easier to predict what the markets will do a decade from now.

So it is not worthless. Do you believe earnings can keep going up unabated, or is there is a likelyhood that they can fall also, once in a while. And if they fall, there is no valuation comfort that was there in the past so the fall is likely to be harder.

Robert Shiller's been saying stocks are expensive/overvalued since at least 2012 (while the SPX has doubled :s13:), also his shiller P/E ratio was not particularly high just before the GFC, so its really just another useless indicator.

Its difficult enough to forecast what earnings will be in 12 months time, and you think its easier to predict what the market will do a decade from now? What gives you this confidence?
 

BBCWatcher

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No.. I am talking about investment grade notes or preferred stock of large insurance companies.. Please don't make sweeping statement without understanding.

Investment grade is not the same thing as risk free. AIG and Lehman bros were also investment grade before they went under in 2009.
That's right. There's the potential for capital loss, obviously.

As a technical matter, the probability of capital loss is never quite zero. We all live on this blue marble that could get whacked with a big space rock tomorrow -- I can't totally rule that out. However, conventionally, and in nominal terms, the government that prints the currency sets the benchmark for the lowest risk instruments in that currency. In Singapore, in Singapore dollars, that's a Singapore Government Security (SGS) purchased at initial auction and held to maturity, or a Singapore Savings Bond (SSB), a subtype of SGSes.

....OK, so Yyhwin is asking for strategies to achieve a consistent 6% yield without loss of capital. And the direct answer is there isn't such a strategy, because it's impossible as the question is phrased. However, if your time horizon is sufficiently long (or longer), if you're willing to allow at least some wobble in the yield (average 6%, which is about 4% real), and if you're willing to allow some short-term capital loss, then you should be able to get a reliably good or excellent outcome. And we've talked already in this forum about how to do that. It's this sort of recipe:

* Doggedly save and invest every month for decades (four would be nice), with escalation when a higher savings flow is expected to be sustainable;
* Try to open and maintain a gap between gross income and day-to-day spending;
* Invest in a few low cost vehicles;
* Make sure those vehicles are at least reasonably well diversified;
* At 7+ years before you're going to need some of whatever you're saving, start adjusting the portfolio mix gradually, progressively to a more conservative posture.

Do all that and you should do well or better than well. Should do doesn't mean absolutely certain, but with high confidence it should be good. And an average 6%/year compounded nominal yield would be a reasonable forecast using that strategy (or set of strategies) over that long timespan.
 

focus1974

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What baffles me looking back at valuations, during the GFC, valuations were actually not bad, S&P 500 was very cheap based on trailing earnings, compared to what it is now and I remember those days it felt like we are in a huge bubble. But now for some reason it doesn't feel like a bubble.

Always looked forward and invest.
Don't looked at the current stage and justify whether it is a bubble or not.

example, forward PE will be a better gauge of earnings over-valuation than current PE wrt to the current share price (Which mkt participants is pricing it forward).

example, Current PE is 50, Forward PE is 15, share price will be over-valued if you looked at current PE. But market participants have already rushed in and buy based on Forward PE.

example, Current PE is 15, Forward PE is 50, share price will be under-valued if you looked at current PE. But market participants have already start running for the exit based on Forward PE.
 

revhappy

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Always looked forward and invest.
Don't looked at the current stage and justify whether it is a bubble or not.

example, forward PE will be a better gauge of earnings over-valuation than current PE wrt to the current share price (Which mkt participants is pricing it forward).

Thanks, but the forward PE is only an estimate, the trailing PE is real. Companies do all sort of fancy accounting to bring forward their earnings and postpone their losses. When interest rates are ticking up or there is liquidity crunch they won't be able to postpone their losses anymore. Atleast we all agree that borrowing costs are rising for companies and free money is not available anymore, so I believe the likelyhood of those forward estimates being cut is higher.
 

Toni90

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Have a look at this chart. There was consistently a gap between earnings and price from 2003 to 2014, except for the year of the GFC. But suddenly after 2014, the gap closed. So after 2014, markets are as overvalued as they were in the year 2000 dot-com bubble. Over the next decade, I see a maximum of 25% upside and a minimum of 50% downside.

3EZ069a.png

Stupid chart again. Show longer timeframe confirm wrong one.
 

aarontansp

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Best strategy for this will be ...
Wait wait wait wait wait...
Until GLOBAL Market crashes big time like 2008/9...

then scoop up with all your balls... the bluechips you want..

then hold for a decade..

history repeats itself..
and human behaviour never changed... we do not buy when we should be buying...
we do not sell when we should be selling..

I did jump on the wagon during 2007/2008 crisis.
Now got a 50% jump.
 

Dyhalt

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For Singapore citizens and PR, there is a 100% capital protection way to earn up to 6% interest with conditions, and that is CPF RA account for the first 60k for those aged 55 and above.

All other investments carries a certain level of risks though some low cost ETF does mimic performance very similar to a 6% annual yield.
 

BBCWatcher

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For Singapore citizens and PR, there is a 100% capital protection way to earn up to 6% interest with conditions, and that is CPF RA account for the first 60k for those aged 55 and above.
It's the first $30,000 in combined balances for the 6% rate. The next $30,000 attracts 5%. These rates are floor rates, but preservation of the floor(s) is not strictly guaranteed. The rates could also increase in periods of higher Singapore dollar inflation and market interest rates.

"With conditions" is correct, and several conditions are favorable: Singapore tax advantages and strong asset protection characteristics.

That's the closest available offer to what Yyhwin seeks, agreed.
 

lifeafter41

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How difficult is it to have consistent 6% yield for years without loss of capital? Any strategies?


Some REITs/Business Trust may offer high yield but for certain counters, share price keep dropping.


How about the use of overseas investments? Like those denominated in Ringgit or HKD or USD?

Hyflux perps comes to mind......
 

limster

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How difficult is it to have consistent 6% yield for years without loss of capital? Any strategies?


Some REITs/Business Trust may offer high yield but for certain counters, share price keep dropping.


How about the use of overseas investments? Like those denominated in Ringgit or HKD or USD?



UwBM0ix.jpg


I have been vested in First State Bridge for 10 years, this is a balanced unit trusts that holds 50% equities and 50% bonds. I have already mentioned a few times that I am a big fan of this particular fund manager and he has delivered the goods :s13:

If you recall, STI annualised returns for 10 years is 9.2%
First State Bridge annualised returns for 10 years is 9.24% with lower volatility due to its 50% bond component... and you can reinvest the dividends automatically for free whereas ES3 you must pay expensive brokerage fees to reinvest? :s13:
 

limster

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Ur1c1HV.jpg


First State Regional China is actually one of my top holdings which I have also held for 10 years, but it is a 100% equity fund so I am not sure if 12.28% annualised return for 10 years was sufficient to compensate me for the risk I took holding the fund.

So I still think on a risk -adjusted basis First State Bridge is the star. fund, a balanced 50/50 fund only trailing a 100% pure equity by 3% p.a. is very impressive. If you see the China fund has 2 negative time periods suggesting higher volatility, but FSB has zero negative time periods.

While others complain about how terrible Unit trusts are, I just look at my capital gain every year (I would prefer to count dividends, but I guess looking at capital gains is also ok) :s13:
 

Mecisteus

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Seriously, asking such a question by someone who is experienced enough in MM and SSI forum? :s22:
 

OngHuatHuat

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Do you have enough confidence to put all your money into this unit trust now and expect an annualized return of 6%?

UwBM0ix.jpg


I have been vested in First State Bridge for 10 years, this is a balanced unit trusts that holds 50% equities and 50% bonds. I have already mentioned a few times that I am a big fan of this particular fund manager and he has delivered the goods :s13:

If you recall, STI annualised returns for 10 years is 9.2%
First State Bridge annus13:
 

OngHuatHuat

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I believed this data is highly skewed by recent good performance in stock market.

Ur1c1HV.jpg


First State Regional China is actually one of my top holdings which I have also held for 10 years, but it is a 100% equity fund so I am not sure if 12.28% annualised return for 10 years was sufficient to compensate me for the risk I took holding the fund.

So I still think on a risk -adjusted basis First State Bridge is the star. fund, a balanced 50/50 fund only trailing a 100% pure equity by 3% p.a. is very impressive. If you see the China fund has 2 negative time periods suggesting higher volatility, but FSB has zero negative time periods.

While others complain about how terrible Unit trusts are, I just look at my capital gain every year (I would prefer to count dividends, but I guess looking at capital gains is also ok) :s13:
 
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